The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering

[jjf1978]

See the above response. That means switching to a high N food like a 30-10-10 or a 9-3-6. You have a choice - either go with The Herd's affinity for Bloom foods label hype, or give your plants what they require to remain healthy and productive.

Your call,
UB

I greatly appreciate your response UB! I'm going to go use the fertilizer I have and mix up a 9-3-6 or somewhere similar with a high N ratio and feed them. I'll administer it once and see how they react and then maybe again until I'm satisfied. Thanks so much!

 

[MostlyCrazy]

You're almost there, but not quite. A plant transitions because of hormonal changes, phytochrome, not because you have changed foods. It does not go hand in hand. You are here to support the plant's processes, throughout flowering, not some point in time. A plant makes it's own food and doesn't need our help other than giving it what it needs to maintain leaves in a green and healthy condition until harvest. Forget the bud and the ads, concentrate on the leaves.

UB

Thanks for the response. I get that the leaves are important even in flowering. I understand also that they are the fuel tank of proper bud development. Good roots, good leaves, good buds. Food is but one element but a key element. Since I've been gardening for over 30 year but not this plant I learned to watch the plant heath from my Grandpa. How did he know when to give them some extra rain water! LOL! Funny how some bit of information can trigger the "Oh, now I get it" response. LOL! Thanks again!

 

[PainWrek]

this is a bad-ass thread.... very informative uncle ben. thank you..

 

[First Time Growin]

Hey Uncle Ben, I am in flowering and am wondering if my formula has a good NPK ratio...
My bloom nute is a two part formula(Dutch Nutrient Formula aka DNF), Part A = 3-0-3 Part B = 1-0.5-3

Looking forward to hearing back from you,
FTG.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Hey Uncle Ben

have posted a few pics here
https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/276324-nutes-budget.html
that I hope show what you are talking about, good, lush leaf development

Thank you so much for being here and sharing what you do/know

You're welcome, and nice going!

Happy thanskgiving, friends!

Back atcha! Hope you had a good one.

I greatly appreciate your response UB! I'm going to go use the fertilizer I have and mix up a 9-3-6 or somewhere similar with a high N ratio and feed them. I'll administer it once and see how they react and then maybe again until I'm satisfied. Thanks so much!

Give 'em time to react. This aint an overnight thang.

Thanks for the response. I get that the leaves are important even in flowering.

The leaves (and the health of the root system) are the ONLY thing that matters during flowering. I hope you guys are getting it, eh?

I understand also that they are the fuel tank of proper bud development. Good roots, good leaves, good buds. Food is but one element but a key element.

Good food production, simple/complex carbos produced by photosynthesis, is THE key element and must be optimized by understanding what it takes to dial in ALL of the cultural factors.

Since I've been gardening for over 30 year but not this plant I learned to watch the plant heath from my Grandpa. How did he know when to give them some extra rain water! LOL! Funny how some bit of information can trigger the "Oh, now I get it" response. LOL! Thanks again!

Glad you smacked your forehead with the palm of your hand, hah!

Hey Uncle Ben, I am in flowering and am wondering if my formula has a good NPK ratio...
My bloom nute is a two part formula(Dutch Nutrient Formula aka DNF), Part A = 3-0-3 Part B = 1-0.5-3

Looking forward to hearing back from you,
FTG.

If in equal amounts that would be a 2-0.25-3? Kinda light overall regarding value, but especially in the P department regarding NPK and it doesn't address the micros. I'd feel mo betta if you were around a 2-2-3.

 

[Stgeneziz]

It's posts like this one that remind me that i'm growing a PLANT,not operating a magic pot machine!!! Although, growing with hydro, sometimes I feel that way.... can't tell you the countless products i've researched and considered purchasing after reading, "New must have additive!!", somewhere on the web. It's hard to discern ad campaign from fact!! Good thing Im not rich, or I would have had a Library of exciting sounding mystery liquids. Good info + rep.

I wrote this years ago and thought I'd share it here.

The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering

A common mistake for growers when they reach the flowering stage is to start hitting the plants with a high P fert like a 10-50-10, continuing to use this blend exclusively, and when their plants start experiencing a deficit of N, Ca, Mg or micros as reflected by the dropping of lower leaves and chlorosis, they wonder why. Plants flower as a response to long nights, not because of fert blends high in P. A ratio of 10-60-10 is WAY too high in P. The plant will only take what it needs and compete for other elements that may be more important at the time.

You may have heard that too much N can inhibit flowering. No question about it, exclusive use of a plant food that is rich in N such as blood meal, a 5-1-1 blend, or ammonium nitrate/sulfate may inhibit flowering especially if the phosphorous level is low, but most balanced blends have sufficient amount of P to do the job. The question is - "how much P is enough to support a good flowering response and still retain my leaves?"

Manufacturers/horticulturists will give you element analysis and what effect the elements have on plant growth, but remember this does not necessarily mean you will get better yields. Using a high P fert exclusively during flowering can actually work against you due to impending leaf drop. It's an abundant amount of healthy leaves going into 12/12 and maintaining their health that produces a lot of bud, not high P ferts.

I rotate fert blends as the plant *requires* them, not because it is "the thing to do." For example, when your plants are going thru the stretch phase during early flowering, they may need more N, especially if you're getting some yellowing in the lower leaves. Give up the cannabis paradigms and give them what they need. Go back to mild high P fert when the stretch ends, maintaining the foliage in a healthy state of growth until harvest for maximum yields. A 1-3-2 blend such as Peter's Pro Blossom Booster, 10-30-20, is one of the best flowering blends on the market because of several factors - it is higher in nitrate N and Mg. It is sold under the Jack's Classic label. An added benefit of Peters blends is their use of high quality, very pure salts that will eliminate root burn if used judiciously.

Uncle Ben

 

[Roseman]

To me, nutrients are about like Washing Powders for clothes. They brag new and improved and Tide is supposed to be so much better than GAIN, but the only difference is the PRICE.

 

[Stgeneziz]

trust me, I had my finger on the buy it now button a wee or two ago to get new, more expensive nutes. Then I said to myself "wait, what you have already works" it's me that needs to get better as a grower, not the nutes. IMO.

 

[Uncle Ben]

It's posts like this one that remind me that i'm growing a PLANT,not operating a magic pot machine!!! Although, growing with hydro, sometimes I feel that way.... can't tell you the countless products i've researched and considered purchasing after reading, "New must have additive!!", somewhere on the web. It's hard to discern ad campaign from fact!! Good thing Im not rich, or I would have had a Library of exciting sounding mystery liquids. Good info + rep.

It's a racket. I just addressed your excellent point in another thread.

 

[seasmoke]

WoW!! I just read this whole thread, with a few trips to the "ROOM", and couldn't believe what I was seeing. I just couldn't figure out what was going on....I am getting yellow leaves, and they fall off and spots on all of my plants that are in their final three weeks...thats when I stop fertilizing them, giving them only mollasses and water....great diet, eh?

Uncle Ben, I am using Miracle-gro all purpose plant food 24-8-16 during vegging and MG 15-30-15 for flower, but as I said I stop the last 3 weeks, Should I fert longer? I know you don't touch the stuff,but its about all I can get here, (I will probably try the stuff your using if I can find it) that, and Scotts 1-3-1(or something like that) To be honest, I don't know the difference between a Scotts 1-2-3# and a MG 15-20-15#....I do know N-P-K, but not how those two compare...(just drop the "0")??



Also, The stuff thats 4 weeks in look good, BUT, i'm seeing the very, very tips turn yellow. One plant, has three leaves in different areas that the margins have turned yellow as well. Is this when I should give them the veg fertz?


Other than comments like garbage, junk,and poo, anyone care to lend honest thoughts on MG fertilizer, its all i've used and don't know any different...

 

[seasmoke]

WoW!! I just read this whole thread, with a few trips to the "ROOM", and couldn't believe what I was seeing. I just couldn't figure out what was going on....I am getting yellow leaves, and they fall off and spots on all of my plants that are in their final three weeks...thats when I stop fertilizing them, giving them only mollasses and water....great diet, eh?

Uncle Ben, I am using Miracle-gro all purpose plant food 24-8-16 during vegging and MG 15-30-15 for flower, but as I said I stop the last 3 weeks, Should I fert longer? I know you don't touch the stuff,but its about all I can get here, (I will probably try the stuff your using if I can find it) that, and Scotts 1-3-1(or something like that) To be honest, I don't know the difference between a Scotts 1-2-3# and a MG 15-20-15#....I do know N-P-K, but not how those two compare...(just drop the "0")??



Also, The stuff thats 4 weeks in look good, BUT, i'm seeing the very, very tips turn yellow. One plant, has three leaves in different areas that the margins have turned yellow as well. Is this when I should give them the veg fertz?


Other than comments like garbage, junk,and poo, anyone care to lend honest thoughts on MG fertilizer, its all i've used and don't know any different...

I found this in your tips and tweeks thread:

UB:
I don't do movements nor believe in them. I only practice common sense and for anyone to believe you're doing the plant any good by giving it pure water 2-3 weeks prior and up to harvest is nuts, and/or, they've never smoked homegrown, or Mexican, or Colombian field grown pot which isn't "flushed". As I've said before, I think "flushing" was founded by Dutch growers to atone for their sins of over-fertilizing throughout the life the plant. And of course you'll have the "what about taste?" mantra. If you want taste, smoke a Swisher Sweet.

Everyone wants to push their plants and make this growing thing so damn complicated. A plant isn't like a radiator, nothing is flushed out. Use judicious foods until harvest to maintain the health of the leaves, don't worry about bud production, forget the bud.


So, The reason i'm getting yellowing and leaf fall-off during the last 3 weeks is because I stopped feeding,...well thats what I get for following sheep.
Ben, you are the man. BTW, the ratio I use with the MG is 2 tablespoons per 5 gal, 1-2 gal per plant, plants in 5-6 gal buckets. I feed around 7-10 days...guess i'll feed till harvest

 

[retardigraded]

I've got a couple of plants in flower right now that are starting to look N deficient and drop leaves well before they should. I've been feeding them only low doses of N because I was afraid of messing with my buds. I'm glad I found this post so I can feel good about giving my ladies what they really need.

 

[Uncle Ben]

So, The reason i'm getting yellowing and leaf fall-off during the last 3 weeks is because I stopped feeding,...well thats what I get for following sheep.

Yep, that's why. Regarding the sheep comment, I have a way of putting the need to conform, albeit bluntly - "a thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong."

Ben, you are the man. BTW, the ratio I use with the MG is 2 tablespoons per 5 gal, 1-2 gal per plant, plants in 5-6 gal buckets. I feed around 7-10 days...guess i'll feed till harvest

That's fine, as long as they are also getting NPK and the micros.

 

[dbo24242]

Uncle Ben,

I try to read eveyrthing you post and skip the inbetween BS posts argueing with you.
(Like on that Lolipopping thread)

I am on my 8th indoor closet hydroponic grow, and I am experimenting with Nitrogen in the Flowering Cycle because of your posts.

I was using Bloom nutes with NO Nitrogen at all in them. I used them on 7 grows. I was told for the past 3 years that it ws natural for the plant's lower leaves to yellow and fall off during Flowring and I mistakenly accepted that as fact. HERD mentality.

What made me doubt it is when I grew outdoors in heavy fertilized patches many yers ago, heavy in manure and all kinds of nitrogen, none of the lower fan leaves yellowed and fell off then.

Then I read up on ADVANCED NUTRIENTS.
I was told by many growers that use them that they will balance the pH for you and you can toss the pH UP and the pH Down if you use Advanced Nutrients.
Sounded good to me, so I ordered the BLOOM, and they came in two one gallon jugs, labeled Part A and Part B. The instructions say to add them separately to the tank and make the ppm 800 to 900 per reservoir or 1.8 tablespoon per gallon of water.
That was simple enough.

I noticed that one container contained NO Nitrogen, and very high on Phosperous and very little Potassium.
The other container was High on Nitrogen, Low on Phosperous and High on Potassium.
Hmmmmm??? Nitrogen in Bloom Nutes????? That was rare to me.

They claim that ADVANCED NUTRIENTS is one of the very few nutrients sold and labeled that they are made especially for marijuana growing.

Hhhhhmmmm? Bloom Nutes High in Nitrogen??????

The container labeled High in Nitrogen looks like Liquid Karma, it is a brown liquid and not thin either. I decided to remain loyal to my SH pre-packaged nutes for this grow, but I wanted to try the ADVANCED NUTRIENTS, so I used them ONLY in my 5 gallon experimental bucket.

After two days, I noticed a couple of changes.
One, first thing I noticed is they started having a stronger skunk smell again, like when they were in the VEG cycle. A few days after I first started the BLOOM nutes , the strong smell diminshed. After adding the Advanced Nutrients with Nitrogen, the bad stink came back And strong too.
Two, secondly I noticed that the the lower third of the plant's leaves QUIT having dying off, falling off, yellowing leaves. I was averaging 3 or 4 leaves a day falling off per plant, and suddenly NONE fell off. They all quit yellowing and falling off.
Three, I noticed all kinds of new green leaves growing out of the flowers or bud sites.

Hhhhmmmm, had to be the Nitrogen!

So I spent almost an entire day googling and searching for info on adding Nitrogen during the Flowereing Cycle. VERY INTERESTING.
I ALSO LOOKED THROUGH 4 BOOKS. All I could find is advice saying DO NOT ADD VEG NUTES(Nitrogen) DURING THE BLOOM CYCLE, because of the affect on TASTE. There was no other reason NOT to do it.

So, I asked some expert growers.
You said that you always adds a small amount of Nitrogen nutes to the Bloom Cycle and none of your lower leaves yellow and fall off.
A nameless large outdoor commerical grower that I know told me he digs a giant hole and throws all the dirt away and fills the hole back up with an assortment of different soils, peat moss, all kinds of different manure and bat poop and all kinds of nitrogen. He said when his plants naturally go to 12/12, they never shed a lower leaf. He never adds any phosperous or anything else either. He grows those 15 to 20 foot tall trees too.
He said he does not flush them, how could he flush an outdoor tree in soil? And he says that he never gets any nitrogen-fertilizer taste in his buds either.

And in my asking around, many indoor hydro growers say their secret trick is to add a little Nitrogen during BLOOM to get larger plants and larger buds and a larger harvest.

So, on my other two tanks, when I added one gallon of water back, I added 1/6 packet of my regular VEG nutes. Now they are not shedding any leaves and the bud sites are rapidly filling in too.

And they are all stinking to high heaven.


I think most books and many experienced growers are wrong about this Nitrogen in Flowering Cycle and nee dto experiment with it to get larger yields..

And let me tell you two years ago, (I have pics) I was helping my X wife do a grow at her house, and her husband bought a book and wanted to lollipop her plants and she did. She averaged one and half oucnes of dried buds frome each plant, while I averaged 4, growing the same strain, in the same DWC system with the same lights.

Just because someone makes a name for a procedure , doesn't make it right.

nice post, *takes out GH Micro*

 

[plaguedog]

Saltpetre (US Saltpeter)
Potassium Nitrate NPK = 13-0-38
If I added this to my Guano Bloom It would be NPK 14-9-39
I'm not sure that would be a good thing.
Any other way to increase Potassium while keeping it Organic?

Not sure if anyone answered but another decent source of K is sea kelp or something like maxicrop liquid or powdered form. And greensand takes a LONG time to break down and actually be useful. It's good when you mix up the soil and let it cook or are reusing your soil mix. I use guanos, ewc and sea kelp (in teas) mainly for feeding so if you have that guano add some maxicrop or something even cheaper like algamin kelp meal that is like 8 bucks for a 5 pound bag that goes along way.

This is a great thread btw, I have always used my high N guano(sea bird) with my higher P guano all the way through flower (last two weeks I just use EWC tea with some molasses) and have had some nice results. No dead yellow leaves exept a few that naturally go as the plants life cycle ends.

 

[seasmoke]

"A thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong"

LOL!! Still ....they're eating shit............

 

[400Whps]

im putting this in my wife's book of quotes:"A thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong"

 

[seasmoke]

Hold on, hold on, hold on...UB. If I keep feeding them MG till harvest, won't I be smoking MG fertz?? Please explain how I won't be(did i miss something??) smoking the fertz that I gave them 2weeks ago right before I harvest? I mean, I like to smoke some of this as a sample while it cures... My "Partner" got all pissy just the thought of feeding them till harvest, complaining he didn't want to smoke fertz and that I wouldn't want my wife to either. scared the shit out of my wife,whom i'm growing it for,...long story, med pat.) and i'm standing on a fence.

Believe it or not, this started a fight..................

I already gave them fertz yesterday, got home today lights were out. i'll check tomorrow for improvements. Christ why the hell do people get so touchy?...

 

[MostlyCrazy]

Cause they need their med! LOL!

 

[dbo24242]

Hold on, hold on, hold on...UB. If I keep feeding them MG till harvest, won't I be smoking MG fertz?? Please explain how I won't be(did i miss something??) smoking the fertz that I gave them 2weeks ago right before I harvest? I mean, I like to smoke some of this as a sample while it cures... My "Partner" got all pissy just the thought of feeding them till harvest, complaining he didn't want to smoke fertz and that I wouldn't want my wife to either. scared the shit out of my wife,whom i'm growing it for,...long story, med pat.) and i'm standing on a fence.

Believe it or not, this started a fight..................

I already gave them fertz yesterday, got home today lights were out. i'll check tomorrow for improvements. Christ why the hell do people get so touchy?...

If she doesn't want the MG bud just buy some better fertilizers or organic setups its not that hard. Better just go organic if thats the issue.
Also sounds like your partner is brewing troubles; you should lose the baggage and fly solo.