A few thoughts on reducing "the stretch"

[Uncle Ben]

Just answered a PM on the issue, thought I'd post a ditty here.

The Stretch is aggravating for indoor growers. Outdoor growers could care less unless they're trying to come under a 6' tall privacy fence (been there, done that). Here is a link on some of the nutritional issues that play into plants stretching, and will apply to cannabis too. I buy foods from these people. They are of very high quality and their tech staff are too. It behooves a large greenhouse op that is growing annuals to ship to far away destinations to grow and finish plants that are fairly short, stocky and with strong stems. Too much ammonical N and high P foods contribute to The Stretch according to this source, light and temps aside for now.

Plant stretch, what causes it?

http://www.plantexsolutions.com/index00c0.html?id=607

Notice at the bottom of this chart there is "no effect" on certain species, so, your mileage may vary.

http://www.plantexsolutions.com/index792e.html?id=606

Many years ago, and still today, I recommended Jack Peters' Blossom Booster, 10-30-20 to pot growers. It's like Jack designed it for pot - the N source is 50% nitrate, Mg is greatly increased to maintain chlorophyll (and there's a good amount of iron for the same reason too), good hit of K to help harden off the plant and reinforce the flowering response.

http://www.jacksclassic.com/flowering_plant_care.html

Here's a tech sheet of what makes a great food, unlike many products you read about here which are not regulated and don't publish their contents. This is a guaranteed analysis: http://www.jacksclassic.com/blossom_booster.html

Enjoy,
UB

 

[cazador]

Thanks for the info.

 

[Cannacopia]

From what I've (heard) stretch is caused by not flipping the veg/flower cycle fast enough. i.e. 5' indoor white russians in 4' of space! Again from what I've (heard) the next time using humboldt nutes with 8 week schedule the same strain (2 weeks veg) ended at 28" not 5'. The key, shocking the plants with K (potassium) right when the light cycle is changed. Look at humboldt nutes schedule 8 week re-circulating medium strength and you'll see what I am talking about. Again. This is only what I've heard and I have no clue what I am talking about.

 

[s.c.mtn.hillbilly]

as to the aside- lumens are THE main determinant. I was veggin' with a 1000 watt hps; with ridiculous tight internodes...-had to move that light to the grow room. now there's a 400watt mh. they're strechin' now.

 

[plaguedog]

Thats probably not the best of news to people that use seabird guano. I think SBG (12-12-2.5) has 6% ammonical N and like 4% nitrate N. The rest they call "organic N" in most analysis. Not sure what that means. Are organics measured differently?

I haven't really noticed an issue with more stretch since switching to all organics, could it be that because it's still close to a 50% ratio? I'm also guessing a lot has to do with strain specifics? I need to take a look at the other Mexican bat guano and Indonesian (high P guano) as well.

 

[Mr. Homegrown]

Great read UB thanks!! Just out of curiosity what would you consider the optimum ratio for MJ in veg.? They talk of the 1-3-2 as optimum for flowering to finish, but no talk of veg. Hope this isn't to far off topic.

 

[DaveCoulier]

From what I've (heard) stretch is caused by not flipping the veg/flower cycle fast enough. i.e. 5' indoor white russians in 4' of space! Again from what I've (heard) the next time using humboldt nutes with 8 week schedule the same strain (2 weeks veg) ended at 28" not 5'. The key, shocking the plants with K (potassium) right when the light cycle is changed. Look at humboldt nutes schedule 8 week re-circulating medium strength and you'll see what I am talking about. Again. This is only what I've heard and I have no clue what I am talking about.

Your sorta right in a way, but not quite right overall . If we flower a plant when it has 8 internodes, it will have more stretch than a plant thats flowered at say 5 internodes. More nodes=more overall stretch, yet both plants would likely have a 1:1 ratio of stretch if compared to each other.

But if we ignore that, a plant isnt going to stretch "more" just because we decided to veg it longer. We should always expect a similar stretch when we flower regardless of how long we allowed the plant to veg. Hell there are some sativas that never stop growing during flowering, so limiting the veg time really doesn't make any difference.


UB: The no-stretch solution, do you use that during early flowering? That seems like it would be a great product if it works really well. I can veg my plants longer without worrying about them over-growing my space when I flip the switch.

Thanks for making this thread. Im glad that PM turned into something we all can learn from.

Oh and if anyone is curious, it was bout my dads 3-4 inch plant growing to 12-15 inches(I didn't measure) in 9 days after he hit it with 20-20-20. Can you imagine a 15 inch plant with 5 nodes?

Mr. HomeGrown I think I have seen UB suggest 3-1-2 for veg. Its also what Ive seen recommended alot on Gardenwebforum by their own Guru Tapla.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Thats probably not the best of news to people that use seabird guano. I think SBG (12-12-2.5) has 6% ammonical N and like 4% nitrate N. The rest they call "organic N" in most analysis. Not sure what that means. Are organics measured differently?

Don't think so. It's the amount of the total. For instance, in a hundred ounces of your guano, it should render 12 ounces of N. Yes, like I said, there are alot of factors to consider regarding the stretch, light and genetics for example.

Great read UB thanks!! Just out of curiosity what would you consider the optimum ratio for MJ in veg.? They talk of the 1-3-2 as optimum for flowering to finish, but no talk of veg. Hope this isn't to far off topic.

Well, it certainly isn't one in which K is more than N (quite common.) A 30-10-10, 9-3-6, anything that will support good foliage production and retention of leaves.

UB: The no-stretch solution, do you use that during early flowering? That seems like it would be a great product if it works really well. I can veg my plants longer without worrying about them over-growing my space when I flip the switch.

Never have tried them, only used that link as an education and for you guys to talk to their techs. I use alot of different products, and I think it's them that manufactures a great encapsulated food, 12 month. I used in on outdoor pot and it worked great. It is something like a 18-7-12 with micros.

later....

 

[inval]

I use CO2 and by cutting it off during the 2 weeks after switching to 12. This has allowed me to completely control the stretch. At the beginning of week 3 I turn it back on and my plants are perfectly sized. This is working remarkably well for me.

 

[inval]

BTW, I am using cutting edge solutions products during the 2 week transition. I use a transition formula that uses 5ml grow, 8 ml micro and 15 ml bloom. I'll add CAL MAG + to this at the rate of 10ml per gallon. I also use Bud Candy as soon as I switch.

 

["SICC"]

now thread, subscribed, i will be passing this on

 

[hardweed]

Does any one have some advise that does not require chemicals or cO2 to reduce the size of your plant (upwards). Something like fan blowing directly on them. ( for me im talking about the vegging stage )

 

[DaveCoulier]

Does any one have some advise that does not require chemicals or cO2 to reduce the size of your plant (upwards). Something like fan blowing directly on them. ( for me im talking about the vegging stage )

Try out least stress training.

 

[hardweed]

what is that? people have told me that if they are going toge t to big basicly just bend he top to face the bottom but i dont really want that

 

[DaveCoulier]

what is that? people have told me that if they are going toge t to big basicly just bend he top to face the bottom but i dont really want that

Well if you want to reduce vertical growth as much as possible its your only choice. I you top or fim it reduces your vertical height temporarily, but then it continues.

Use the FAQ in the top right of your page, and learn.

 

[hardweed]

what would happen if i just just the top 20cms off?

 

[DaveCoulier]

what would happen if i just just the top 20cms off?

The remaining side branches you have will start to grow out as if they were the main top that you just removed. It will reduce your height, but eventually the lower branches will grow just as tall as the original top. The longer you veg after topping the more time the plant has to regain lost height.

 

[DaveCoulier]

Dug up some more info regarding plant stretch UB.

http://www.onhort.com/What-Really-Causes-Stretch-article2891

Can you recommend some other veg ferts, that lack P, that wont burn a hole in my pocket?

 

[Uncle Ben]

Dug up some more info regarding plant stretch UB.

http://www.onhort.com/What-Really-Causes-Stretch-article2891

Can you recommend some other veg ferts, that lack P, that wont burn a hole in my pocket?

Nice work Holmes!

When all of these results are put together, it is clear that the form of nitrogen did not govern plant size. Repeatedly, the differences in plant growth were a consequence of the amount of phosphorus supplied to the plants, not the form of nitrogen. Going back to the original question, “Does ammonium-nitrogen really cause plant stretch,” the answer would have to be no. Differences in plant height among the many fertilizers varying in ammonium-nitrate proportion are controlled by the phosphate — low phosphate levels result in compact plants, high phosphate levels result in tall plants.

Thus, if compact plants are your goal, you should limit the amount of phosphorus applied to the plants; conversely, if full plants are your goal, you should apply fertilizers containing the appropriate levels of phosphorus.

Wanna safe bet? 20-20-20 ????????

 

[Megalith]

Hi there UB,
I have seen in some of your other post that you recommend dyna pro for vegatation in hydroponic systems. You seem to like this ratio they use. I wanted to ask you what your thoughts were on other Jacks Classic products? Specifically, the orchid special with the 30-10-10 ratio. Also the all purpose 20-20-20. I'm using a drip system to veg my kids and appreciate the cost of Jacks line of products. I'm a new grower and learner. Appreciate your wisdom.