Something I found pretty funny

[Heisenberg]

It seems as though we are mostly on the same wave length, I mean, isn't god totally relative? Also, god being almighty and the "creator" where do other gods, and other religions fit in? If there is only one god. How can there be dozens of religions each with it's own story and history of events?? That in itself is ample evidence that it is all a crock of shit!

Another one of my favorite quotes; "We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. When you understand the reasons you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand the reasons why I dismiss yours."


Also, the bible........I really do appreciate it moralistic values, but it is nothing more than a book full of realistic teachings, guidlines. And is maybe one of the few good things to come out of religion. But people (usually religious ones) misenterpret the readings, which confuses things even further.

The bible is actually a pretty poor source of moral guidelines. The bible says many things such as; It's ok to sell your youngest daughter into slavery; people who work on Sunday should be stoned to death; people who wear clothes made of more than one fiber type should be killed, I could go on and on and on. Overall the bible is an intolerant, prejudice, downright violent work of fiction. Overall the history of religon is a history of fraud, deceit, violence and sadness.

To me, science is the heart and soul of our existence, everything is or will be explained I believe, people say that they feel positive and negative energy coming from people or objects, but this is totally natural, how do you think a horse can tell that a human fears it or not? I myself can feel the energy of my wife when she lays next to me at night, whether she is stressed or happy, sad or angry, humans are so full of energy that we don't actually know what we have within ourselves. I don't really know where I'm going with this but, to me there is so much unknown information out there that we are only now starting to discover what we are capable of.

You are mis-using the word energy here. Energy is a purely scientific word and it means only one thing; the ability to do work. A measurable work potential. If you can not replace the word energy with the phrase "ability to do work" then it becomes meaningless. If someone (not you but pseudoscience pushers) is trying to explain something in a scientific context, and misuses such a basic scientific word as energy, they don't know what they are talking about. This is a good way to spot bunk science.

Example:

We can harvest energy from the sun - We can harvest ability to do work from the sun

We can store energy in batteries - we can store ability to do work in batteries

This old house has a lot of negative energy - This old house has a lot of negative ability to do work

Nice one man!
But that is one thing that totally pisses me off with religious fanatics, because god created everything, in his way, all that we see, hear and do is in the way he wants. I think this way because HE created me to be like this, wars are a result of HIS doing, it all has a reaosn and is all to do with HIS master plan. It really gets on my nerves, when some fuck wit preacher comes along and starts rattling on about this crap, because reallythere is nothing you can say to it. "science is why we are here" - "that is gods plan, he created science" fuck!!!!!

What you are pointing out here is a logical fallacy known as special pleading. It is something all people who make paranormal claims (of which god is one) do when backed into a corner. A good example of this is the ad-hoc dismissal of negative test results. For example, one might point out that ESP has never been demonstrated under adequate test conditions, therefore ESP is not a genuine phenomenon. Defenders of ESP have attempted to counter this argument by introducing the arbitrary premise that ESP does not work in the presence of skeptics.

In other words, there's always an exscuse. They constantly move the goalpost.

Science constantly changes its theories, totally because the world is constantly changing, the world is a petty turbulent place, I find it amazing that just through the power of thought and research that scientists have descovered the things that they have. It's incredible! But as I have said before, we have soooooooo much more to discover, we hardly know what goes on inour own oceans, we hardly know exactly how the human brain works, we have and entire half of our brain that we have no idea about, it's astounding, but it must be used for something......right?!

Very true. Your statement reminds me of the way Carl Sagan used to romanticize science. It's silly to focus on unexplained phenomena that are not based in reality, when we have so many astonishing things left to discover that are real.

Hope that didn't come across as pompous. Science is a subject that is dear to my heart, and I enjoy seeing stoners apply critical thought.


Top 20 logical fallacies
Skeptoid - critical thought on a wide range of paranormal claims

 

[Greenplease]

O.k then heisenberg, but what word would you use instead of energy? I mean to me, energy is what is needed to put things into action. Look at an atom for example, it contains all the right components to function alone, positive and negative charge, and in turn generates energy. Energy in my eyes is another word for working power. Which I guess translates in a way to what you mean by energy, but I didn't quite understand why that word doesn't apply to what I was writing about? So I ask you again, what other word could I use?? I mean how do i describe a strong feeling that I may get from my lady being pissed off without her actually saying anything?
Presence?

And about the bible, if you look past the details of the stories, and look at the moralistic value behind each story, then it is pretty idealistic wouldn't you say? Sure, all those things that you quoted are fairly, moralistically wrong, but they are tellings of THAT time, when that was what really happened.

And don't worry, you aren't coming across as pompous, I enjoy an insightful conversation on such topics. And am ready to learn, and teach when I can!

 

[Heisenberg]

Energy can be measured. Energy can be stored. Energy can not be imprinted onto a house. Energy can not be felt as an emotion. I understand people use energy as slang, but that is unacceptable when looking at something in a scientific context.

I would use the word 'vibes' for lack of a better term. The point is, if you had no idea of your wife's mood, and every morning I put her in a contained booth and asked you to read her mood, you might be able to guess, but you would not accurately be able to say for sure, beyond the boundaries of normal random chance.

So when we apply scientific methods and control for unnecessary factors, such as your consciousness, the evidence suggests that we can take it completely out of the equation. Once your consciousness is no longer a factor, the phenomenon is no longer there. This suggest that you aren't really feeling anything outside of your own mind. You pick up on clues, know shes mad, and project a feeling onto her that gets reflected back and interpreted by your mind as negative vibes. That isn't to say the feeling isn't valid, it's just not coming from where you think it is. It is not a measurable, replicable, detectable phenomenon.

I don't think we should give the bible a break just because it has some good ideas mixed in with the hypocrisy and fascism. Even Charles Manson had a good idea or two. The ideas that you find value in need not come from the bible, but from common decency. Thou shall not kill... well duh! Old proverbs based purely in fiction have some great moral lessons to be taught, doesn't mean they are divine word.

The bible, the word of God, clearly states thou shall not tell a lie. It gives no exceptions to this rule. Every year, millions of people who call themselves good Christians, take the opportunity of Jesus' birthday to lie to the ones they love the most, their children. Every Christmas, the holiest of days, parents deceive their children and tell them a fat man in a red suit will reward them for good behavior. Replace Santa with God and you have basically the same tactic for the masses. Be good or some judgmental man you never see, but who watches you all the time, will punish you. OK so Santa brings a lot of joy into young kids lives. Parents use it as a way to express love. I agree, but I am not the one saying it's wrong. The bible does not say it's ok to tell a lie if it brings love and joy. So every Christmas all these people prove themselves to be hypocrites, and one thing Jesus disliked more than a thief and a liar, was a hypocrite. You think he looks forward to his birthday every year?

I too enjoy a good discussion, especially with someone who can think.

 

[Greenplease]

I agree with you on the bible stuff, I guess when I spoke of it, I was in some way trying to imply that there is some good involved with religion, even though I have been on the high road for a while now about truths and conspiracies and what not, I guess I still sometimes wish and try to believe that "good" is not just wishful thinking.

I take it you have no beliefs in spirituality, meditation, buddhism or anything similar then? I ask because, while science usually explains "phenomena" there are still so many things that go un-answered, my wife for example has had huge implications with depression, and speaks of things that I can't comprehend, not even with my open mind. I mean, I am a straight up realist and thoroughly believe in science, the big bang, evolution and such theories. But I sincerely believe that human beings have a certain mistique about them, I can tell the bullshitters from the legitimite. Anyway back to the story about my wife, the things she seems to have been through and speaks of are straight up scarey sometimes(sacry in the sense that, I don't understand) an when we go to her doctor he quite simply has no explanation and gives her enough medicine to knock out a rhino. And that, in some ways puts my mind in doubt. And makes me start thinking off on different branches you know. (she is much better by the way, this was a few years back)

So when I say that I feel her energy, in some ways I am reading her body language as you mentioned, but I feel as though there could be more to it than that. I could be wrong, and I'm not looking for a reason for existence or anything similar, but I do believe I can look into someones eyes and know fairly specifically how they are feeling. Would you consider this body language still?

It's hard for me to explain exactly what goes on in my mind with these things, but I dunno, maybe you could help!!

I guess where I'm going with this, is that we can't be hypocritical either, like the religious sects are, we have to be open to other possiblities aswell. It's scary but it's necessary wouldn't you agree??

 

[Heisenberg]

I agree with you on the bible stuff, I guess when I spoke of it, I was in some way trying to imply that there is some good involved with religion, even though I have been on the high road for a while now about truths and conspiracies and what not, I guess I still sometimes wish and try to believe that "good" is not just wishful thinking.

I take it you have no beliefs in spirituality, meditation, buddhism or anything similar then? I ask because, while science usually explains "phenomena" there are still so many things that go un-answered, my wife for example has had huge implications with depression, and speaks of things that I can't comprehend, not even with my open mind. I mean, I am a straight up realist and thoroughly believe in science, the big bang, evolution and such theories. But I sincerely believe that human beings have a certain mistique about them, I can tell the bullshitters from the legitimite. Anyway back to the story about my wife, the things she seems to have been through and speaks of are straight up scarey sometimes(sacry in the sense that, I don't understand) an when we go to her doctor he quite simply has no explanation and gives her enough medicine to knock out a rhino. And that, in some ways puts my mind in doubt. And makes me start thinking off on different branches you know. (she is much better by the way, this was a few years back)

So when I say that I feel her energy, in some ways I am reading her body language as you mentioned, but I feel as though there could be more to it than that. I could be wrong, and I'm not looking for a reason for existence or anything similar, but I do believe I can look into someones eyes and know fairly specifically how they are feeling. Would you consider this body language still?

It's hard for me to explain exactly what goes on in my mind with these things, but I dunno, maybe you could help!!

I guess where I'm going with this, is that we can't be hypocritical either, like the religious sects are, we have to be open to other possiblities aswell. It's scary but it's necessary wouldn't you agree??

Absolutely! The mark of a good skeptic, or realist as you put it, is to search for an explanation. This demands keeping an open mind and accepting the evidence. If you think one way and the evidence points another, you must abandon your original theory. Keeping an open mind however is not the same thing as thinking outside the box. The box is there for a reason, to keep us from making the mistakes we are sure to make.

I am not totally sure what you are going through with your wife. I hope things continue to improve with her. One thing I will say is, if you aren't happy with the doc's choice of treatment, don't be afraid to get a second opinion. Only thing I can say is to be careful of alternative treatments. Saying a treatment is alternative is the same thing as saying the treatment has no credible evidence. If it did have evidence, it would be part of mainstream medicine, and not an alternative.

As far as reading her body language and other subtle clues, that is your intuition. Evolution has rewarded individuals who were better able to read and relate to their loved ones. They have stronger bonds and, as all things evolution rewards, it eventually leads to increased breeding. So although it is beyond me to explain the exact mechanisism of your intuition, there is no reason to believe it is unexplainable.

I have no spiritual beliefs. My philosophy in life is realism. When looking at the world, or even in terms of dealing with others, be real and reasonable about things and you cut out some of lifes headaches. And as Shakespeare said, be true to yourself.

One thing that helped me develop a clearer view of reality is a podcast called, The Skeptics Guide to the Universe. It's a science based podcast which deals with mostly paranormal and fraudulent claims. They do a great job of not just informing you on the validity of certain topics, but they also try to teach you to think critically for yourself. Anyway may not be your cup of tea, but here is the link, Skeptics guide

 

[Greenplease]

Sounds right up my alley. I will check it out, I can't now as I'm at work, but I'm interested.

I used the story of my wife and I as an example, just to show you my train of thought. She is fine, the depression comes back every now and then, but we have a better grasp on it, after making some of our own resolutions. It is one of the most difficult sicknesses I have ever come across. Impossible to understand.

Anyway, thanks for a bit more insight, I gotta get outta here, but I'll be back on a some other time!

Peace bro!