God did not Create the Universe, says Hawking

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Look you are missing the point. All you are trying to do is stump me. And all I am trying to do is to get you to see that you should look deeper than just the surface.
I'm not trying to stump you, I'm trying to see how you reconcile inherently contradictory claims about a book supposedly written by a perfect and moral being.


If you are going to take a stance on these issues shouldn't you do the proper research on them.
I have done the research. I have studied religions for years, I started out by reading the Tanakh in both English and Hebrew. I have been on archeological digs in the Holy Land and have studied comparative religion and studied the NT, Quran, the Bhagavad Gita and other ancient texts. Atheists in general tend to be more literate in religion than you probably realize.

My problem with your point of views is that you and most other people on here have obviously never really spent the time to understand what you read.
No, the problem is that we don't automatically accept your explanations. You seem to imply that reading the text will automatically make things clear, if only we understood it properly when in fact you have to make many concessions and rationalizations to believe that these writings are any more factual than Homer's Odyssey.
This whole thread started with a scientific discussion. But when it comes to the facts about God nobody did any research they just settled with whatever they have heard. There is nothing scientific about that. As for your response, its not superstition demons are real.
Yea, sure, demons live among us. Any evidence for that besides an ancient book full of other superstitious claims?
But with all that said I will still try and answer whatever questions you have. If you are really interested in knowing than I will help. I will say that I am not a Bible scholar by no means. But I have done my fair share of reading and studying. So there are indeed some things that I still don't know. But if all you are going to do is try and find one of my many weaknesses and just to attach it than don't bother.
It is the many weaknesses that drive us away from religion. If you have some evidence or support of the claims made in the bible, then by all means, I and others here would certainly be interested in hearing them.
 

crackerboy

Active Member
"God vs.Science"







"Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist
Professor of Philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new
students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a
moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and
you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...?"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could.
Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does
he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to
Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that
one?"

The student remains silent. "No, you can't, can you?" the professor says.
He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er..yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From God."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son, is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything,
then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle
that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer.

"Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible
things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his questions.
"Who created them?"

There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in
front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues
onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, Professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to
identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No, sir, I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have
you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that
matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in Him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing." the student replies. "I only have my Faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has
with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his
own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold, too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room
suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have
lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-yeat, unlimited heat, white
heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'.
We can go down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go
any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would
be able to go colder than the lowest, -458 degrees. Everybody or object is
susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes
a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the
total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe
the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in
thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat,
sir, just the absence of it."

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding
like a hammer. "What about darkness, professor? Is there such a thing as
darkness?"

"Yes." the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"


"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something: it is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called
darkness, isn't it? That's the meaing we use to define the word. In
reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness
darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be
a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor, my point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start
with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you
explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality." the student explains. "You
argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God.
You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can
measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity
and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.
To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that
death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of
life, just the absence of it. Now tell me, professor, do you teach your
students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes,
of course I do."

"Have you observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where
the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot
even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching
your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has
subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other
student, let me give you an example of what I mean." The students looks
around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the
professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. "Is there anyone
here who has ever heard the professor's brain, touched or smelt the
professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the
established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says
that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you
have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face
unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers, "I
guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life."
the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it
every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in
the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These
manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does
not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like
darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of
God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man
does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that
comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no
light."

The professor sat down.


That student was Albert Einstein...



 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member


"You're a Christian, aren't you son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.
.
.
.
That student was Albert Einstein...
Why do theists rely so much on fictional stories to say what they mean? This story is very cute but full of fail! It uses equivocation and switches colloquial meanings with scientific ones and providing absolutely no support for these particular meaning of the words including "evil" and "good." And to top it off, Einstein was Jewish, not Xtian.

So evil is the absence of god, but god is everywhere and inside everything, therefore there is no evil.

 

LorDeMO

Active Member
@Crackerboy That's just another bullshit situation that never happened and gets past around on the Internet even though there is no truth in it - much like the one about Abortion and Beethoven.
 

LorDeMO

Active Member
Why do theists rely so much on fictional stories to say what they mean?
It all comes down to facts and evidence. They have neither so let's just go ahead and make some up... word of mouth is still a pretty powerful tool to utilise.
 

crackerboy

Active Member
@Crackerboy That's just another bullshit situation that never happened and gets past around on the Internet even though there is no truth in it - much like the one about Abortion and Beethoven.
Its not that I necessarily that I think it is true. I just thought it gave an interesting way of thinking about the contrast to good and evil.
 

LorDeMO

Active Member
I see what you mean but I found it quite tedious to read, it's like a hundred other fictional stories (of supposed fact!) that I have read.
 

crackerboy

Active Member
It all comes down to facts and evidence. They have neither so let's just go ahead and make some up... word of mouth is still a pretty powerful tool to utilise.

If you want to talk about facts and scientific evidence. How bout the Bible said that the world was round thousands of years before Columbus. It also said that the world spins on an axes thousands of years before science figured it out. Watch the last video that I posted. It is all verifiable, you can look it up yourself.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
one more for you all to think about. He explains it better than I can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FeJdSyghrs&feature=related
I can tell you from watching just a few minutes of this, I'm not sure I'm ready to sit down watching it all. First, he presumes what he is trying to demonstrate, begging the question. He wants to prove the bible isn't from man but divine, yet starts off claiming that the things Jesus said, his philosophy, could not have come from man. Which is clearly a bullshit premise from the get go.
 

crackerboy

Active Member
I can tell you from watching just a few minutes of this, I'm not sure I'm ready to sit down watching it all. First, he presumes what he is trying to demonstrate, begging the question. He wants to prove the bible isn't from man but divine, yet starts off claiming that the things Jesus said, his philosophy, could not have come from man. Which is clearly a bullshit premise from the get go.
you can't call it bullshit if you did not listen to his entire argument.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
If you want to talk about facts and scientific evidence. How bout the Bible said that the world was round thousands of years before Columbus. It also said that the world spins on an axes thousands of years before science figured it out. Watch the last video that I posted. It is all verifiable, you can look it up yourself.
The bible speaks of a world round like a flat disc, not a spherical one. It says the earth is su It speaks of the celestial bodies inserted in a dome-like structure covering the flat earth which itself was supported by pillars. Please now provide the texts you think describe the earth rotating on an axis to create our day.

Here's something else you should know, Columbus had nothing to do with discovering the earth was a sphere. Eratosthenes fairly accurately calculated the circumference of the earth at least 200 years before Jesus. The idea of a spherical earth was not unknown in ancient times yet the bible is never unequivocally clear on this particular scientific matter. If it was so clear and unambigious in the bible, why did it take so long for The Church to accept the heliocentric model of the solar system? What about the story in Joshua where the sun stood still and did not go down for a "whole day?" Would god have been more accurate if he said the earth stopped spinning thus lengthening the day?

Keep trying to find evidence of unknown science in the bible. If it were there, it wouldn't be too hard to convince skeptics but the truth is that everything has to be re-interpreted in order to comply with current knowledge and understanding.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
you can't call it bullshit if you did not listen to his entire argument.
Really? One false premise is all that is needed to destroy an argument. He created a false premise AND a formal fallacy. BTW, I did listen to the entire clip and nothing he said makes any difference. His claims about OT prophecies is incorrect as is his assumption that there were 500 witnesses to his resurrection when the only evidence of that is the book that attempts to claim his divinity in the first place. Of course believers will write about events as if they actually occurred if they themselves believe the veracity of the story to begin with. Yet we have no independent sources by the Romans or the Hebrews that any of the events surrounding the resurrection actually took place. How do you KNOW these are not merely stories? How do you distinguish them from the multitudes of other religious texts that describe incredible, supernatural events being attributed to other gods? This was the basis for the question in the beginning of the video and he fails to answer it tremendously.
 

crackerboy

Active Member
The bible speaks of a world round like a flat disc, not a spherical one. It says the earth is su It speaks of the celestial bodies inserted in a dome-like structure covering the flat earth which itself was supported by pillars. Please now provide the texts you think describe the earth rotating on an axis to create our day.

Here's something else you should know, Columbus had nothing to do with discovering the earth was a sphere. Eratosthenes fairly accurately calculated the circumference of the earth at least 200 years before Jesus. The idea of a spherical earth was not unknown in ancient times yet the bible is never unequivocally clear on this particular scientific matter. If it was so clear and unambigious in the bible, why did it take so long for The Church to accept the heliocentric model of the solar system? What about the story in Joshua where the sun stood still and did not go down for a "whole day?" Would god have been more accurate if he said the earth stopped spinning thus lengthening the day?

Keep trying to find evidence of unknown science in the bible. If it were there, it wouldn't be too hard to convince skeptics but the truth is that everything has to be re-interpreted in order to comply with current knowledge and understanding.
If you want the passages than watch the video. He tells you every passage. And you are wrong the Bible specifically says sphere. Just watch them. Or are you afraid that he may cast doubt of your own knowledge. All the video's are part of the same sermon. You must watch all of them to get the point.
 

LorDeMO

Active Member
Give it up dude, you clearly have been owned by someone much more intellegent than you (mindphuk) ..
 

crackerboy

Active Member
yeah its easy to make random claims about a series of videos that he did not even bother to watch. I was totally owned huh. Maybe its more like you where fooled.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
If you want the passages than watch the video. He tells you every passage. And you are wrong the Bible specifically says sphere. Just watch them. Or are you afraid that he may cast doubt of your own knowledge. All the video's are part of the same sermon. You must watch all of them to get the point.
I'm not going to watch an hour of this guy when I have already provided a counter argument. If everything he says is so good, then you should be able to counter my arguments by summarizing his points here in this thread without forcing everyone to spend an hour listening to him drone on. You appear to be under the assumption that his arguments are somehow new, they aren't. They are old canards that have been repeatedly debunked by thinking people. Even many theists disagree with his conclusions.

I'm glad you found his arguments convincing yet you have only heard one side and then made up your mind. How about the fact that there is no word in Aramaic or ancient Hebrew that means "sphere?" How can the bible say sphere specifically when it doesn't have a word to do so?
 

crackerboy

Active Member
Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?
What are you even talking about? Pedestal? Do you even have an argument? Can you contribute to the debate with any sort of knowledge. Even though I strongly disagree with mindphuk's point of view and opinions, I do respect his intellect. He obviously puts real thought into his posts. You on the other hand are what? riding his coat tails?
 
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