God did not Create the Universe, says Hawking

crackerboy

Active Member
I'm not going to watch an hour of this guy when I have already provided a counter argument. If everything he says is so good, then you should be able to counter my arguments by summarizing his points here in this thread without forcing everyone to spend an hour listening to him drone on. You appear to be under the assumption that his arguments are somehow new, they aren't. They are old canards that have been repeatedly debunked by thinking people. Even many theists disagree with his conclusions.

I'm glad you found his arguments convincing yet you have only heard one side and then made up your mind. How about the fact that there is no word in Aramaic or ancient Hebrew that means "sphere?" How can the bible say sphere specifically when it doesn't have a word to do so?
Look he covers a lot of info in this sermon. It is a lot to summarize. How can you make an argument against his argument if you have not listened to his argument? Your argument is based on less than 1/6th of his sermon. You are making groundless claims based on what you think he is going to say. That makes no sense at all.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Look he covers a lot of info in this sermon. It is a lot to summarize. How can you make an argument against his argument if you have not listened to his argument? Your argument is based on less than 1/6th of his sermon. You are making groundless claims based on what you think he is going to say. That makes no sense at all.
I didn't ask you to summarize all of the videos, just the part about what we were talking about -- the circle of the earth with a firmament above, using language that is non-ambiguously wrong, i.e. the sun standing still vs. the earth stopped spinning.
As I said, I watched the last one you posted. I also skimmed the others. I saw the same arguments apologists have used for ages. Besides, how can I be incorrect when as I pointed out there is no word that could have been used that actually meant sphere but as I pointed out, there could have been countless ways for God to have been able to unambiguously make these issues clear yet time and again, it becomes a simple matter to interpret passages so as they conflict with known science. Did God not realize that language and science would evolve the way it did? Would he not realize the problem of dumbing things down for those bronze age folks and still having it apply to us post-enlightenment rationalists? Shouldn't he understand the problem of taking poetic license (as some apologists explain away inconsistencies and contradictions) vs. everything being literal?
 

Evil Buddies

Ganja King
I think its funny how u lot are arguing over the god thing. If people dont believe in god its their right as its people right to believe in god. So whos gonna win an arguement when u all disagree with each others beliefs. No one coz ur wasting ur time should respect what people believe. One saying i got and it is You can't reason with Ignorance, so why bother.

evil
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I think its funny how u lot are arguing over the god thing. If people dont believe in god its their right as its people right to believe in god. So whos gonna win an arguement when u all disagree with each others beliefs. No one coz ur wasting ur time should respect what people believe. One saying i got and it is You can't reason with Ignorance, so why bother.

evil
Belief, of ANYTHING, is not a right. What the hell kind of shit is that?

You have the right to believe the sky is red. Sure. But that doesn't make it red. Your fanatical faith that the sky is red STILL doesn't make it red. So the RIGHT you believe you have to believe or not in God has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

We're talking about accuracy. What's CORRECT. What's scientifically applicable. What's measurable. What's real. What's testable. What's tangible. What's observable. SCIENCE.

Religions should be criticized and none of them should be given ANY amount of respect without having done that first, which coincidentally 99% of the (American anyway) population has never fucking done.

Fuck organized religion.
 

Evil Buddies

Ganja King
Belief, of ANYTHING, is not a right. What the hell kind of shit is that?

You have the right to believe the sky is red. Sure. But that doesn't make it red. Your fanatical faith that the sky is red STILL doesn't make it red. So the RIGHT you believe you have to believe or not in God has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

We're talking about accuracy. What's CORRECT. What's scientifically applicable. What's measurable. What's real. What's testable. What's tangible. What's observable. SCIENCE.

Wether u like it or not people are going to believe what they want. Even if theres no evidence in it, a religious person is going to believe what they want regardless of what people say. Whatever u tell them they are going to argue, yes people can believe what they want even if its not true. A belief is a belief and to argue against someones belief seems pointless to me. The measurement problem seems to defy ur logic of science and physics, all is not what it may appear to seem. If u lot want to argue about peoples beliefs its up to u but to me its a battle of which no one wins. So will leave u to get back to ur debate of science vs God.

The title of this thread which u created is God did not create the universe so how is this thread not about God ???
Evil
 

jewgrow

Well-Known Member
Were basing too much of our information off of the big bang. I am in no way a supporter of religion, but the big bang...no.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
The measurement problem seems to defy ur logic of science and physics, all is not what it may appear to seem.
You keep mentioning the measurement problem but that is only one area of physics where we have incomplete answers. As I asked before, how does not understanding everything make the probability of a god more likely? There have been various attempts to resolve the problem and one day we might succeed just like how we learned about other puzzles that nature gave us. Pointing out areas that science doesn't completely understand in no way disqualifies the things that we do understand and does nothing to make your argument any stronger.


And yes, people are free to believe what they want to, however, as soon as they put their beliefs out there, they are open to criticism. I am confident that my beliefs are able to be backed up by empirical evidence. I know that the theist's argument cannot and I do have a problem when these people think their unsupported beliefs deserve equal time in schools or when they are used to create laws that discriminate against others.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Wether u like it or not people are going to believe what they want. Even if theres no evidence in it, a religious person is going to believe what they want regardless of what people say. Whatever u tell them they are going to argue, yes people can believe what they want even if its not true. A belief is a belief and to argue against someones belief seems pointless to me. The measurement problem seems to defy ur logic of science and physics, all is not what it may appear to seem. If u lot want to argue about peoples beliefs its up to u but to me its a battle of which no one wins. So will leave u to get back to ur debate of science vs God.

The title of this thread which u created is God did not create the universe so how is this thread not about God ???
Evil
That's what we need to change. You can't just go around believing whatever you want. That's dangerous and it has incredibly bad implications for the rest of us. It's extremely important that people understand that.

People can believe whatever they want, you're right about that, but people with unscientific beliefs or beliefs based on ancient codes of morality shouldn't be taken seriously in any context. They shouldn't be able to hold public office because the public should be smart enough to know that someone that uneducated or unintelligent does not hold the countries best interest at heart. Right now the majority of the public, especially in America, is under the illusion that the tenets of organized religion are moral, and as such they go unquestioned throughout the centuries.

Our presidents, our, what everybody views to be "leaders" in our country are almost all exclusively Christian, so when someone questions something they do, to the majority of the population, they're questioning the faith. See how this shit works?

Were basing too much of our information off of the big bang. I am in no way a supporter of religion, but the big bang...no.
I would love to hear what you base that on.

From where I sit, the BB model seems to be pretty accurate.

Hubbles observations alone confirm a singularity and an expanding universe.

Why do you think it's inaccurate?
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Were basing too much of our information off of the big bang. I am in no way a supporter of religion, but the big bang...no.
What exactly do you mean? The big bang is the result of information derived from observation. What "information" do we base on the BB?
 

IregAt420

Active Member
What are you even talking about? Pedestal? Do you even have an argument? Can you contribute to the debate with any sort of knowledge. Even though I strongly disagree with mindphuk's point of view and opinions, I do respect his intellect. He obviously puts real thought into his posts. You on the other hand are what? riding his coat tails?
Hahahahaha! +1 to you sir.
 

Evil Buddies

Ganja King
The way i see it a belief is something that u believe to be true but without physical evidence and proof. People can believe what they want as long as they dont force their views that there is no physical evidence or proof of. I mention the measurement problem coz it proves that somethings science cant explain with out our understanding of our knowledge and laws of physics. As it is something we dont understand a higher power governs beyond our world and dimension of physics. It doesnt have to be God it could be something 4 dimensional that our defies the laws of physics in the 3 dimensional world.

Evil
 

Evil Buddies

Ganja King
That's what we need to change. You can't just go around believing whatever you want. That's dangerous and it has incredibly bad implications for the rest of us. It's extremely important that people understand that.

People can believe whatever they want, you're right about that, but people with unscientific beliefs or beliefs based on ancient codes of morality shouldn't be taken seriously in any context. They shouldn't be able to hold public office because the public should be smart enough to know that someone that uneducated or unintelligent does not hold the countries best interest at heart. Right now the majority of the public, especially in America, is under the illusion that the tenets of organized religion are moral, and as such they go unquestioned throughout the centuries.

Our presidents, our, what everybody views to be "leaders" in our country are almost all exclusively Christian, so when someone questions something they do, to the majority of the population, they're questioning the faith. See how this shit works?



I would love to hear what you base that on.

From where I sit, the BB model seems to be pretty accurate.

Hubbles observations alone confirm a singularity and an expanding universe.

Why do you think it's inaccurate?
The leader of america and Government arent christian they are satanic devil worshippers. That do sacred rituals to their demon gods like molloch at bohemian grove. These are the people that govern and rule america frightening i think.

Evil
 

jewgrow

Well-Known Member
well first off, I dont disagree with the FACTS, but most of the big bang is theory. The universe was not created from nothing, it had to be created from something we perceive as nothing; dark matter is a good candidate if you ask me. but as for information were basing off of it, just turn on the history channel when its about space...then tell me how much of that you believe
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
The leader of america and Government arent christian they are satanic devil worshippers. That do sacred rituals to their demon gods like molloch at bohemian grove. These are the people that govern and rule america frightening i think.

Evil
Well this thread just took a turn for the worse...
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
well first off, I dont disagree with the FACTS, but most of the big bang is theory. The universe was not created from nothing, it had to be created from something we perceive as nothing; dark matter is a good candidate if you ask me. but as for information were basing off of it, just turn on the history channel when its about space...then tell me how much of that you believe
Big bang doesn't say the universe came from nothing.

The history channel has programs that focus on ghosts, UFO's, 2012 conspiracy perpetuation... it doesn't surprise me the shit they talk about regarding space might be a little off. But then again, who the hell thinks watching something from this history channel is equal to a formal education in astrophysics?
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
The way i see it a belief is something that u believe to be true but without physical evidence and proof. People can believe what they want as long as they dont force their views that there is no physical evidence or proof of. I mention the measurement problem coz it proves that somethings science cant explain with out our understanding of our knowledge and laws of physics. As it is something we dont understand a higher power governs beyond our world and dimension of physics. It doesnt have to be God it could be something 4 dimensional that our defies the laws of physics in the 3 dimensional world.

Evil
Belief is anything you hold to be true, things both with and without evidence. A strong belief in something to be true without any evidence is called faith. As I said, people are free to believe whatever they want but if they make those beliefs public, then they open themselves up to criticism.
It would have been nice if you answered my question on the measurement problem rather than just summarize what I already said. As I pointed out there are still many areas in science we don't have answers to but you seem to focus on the measurement problem and I asked why. Do you think a higher power makes the decision as to the final state of a collapsed waveform of every particle? Sorry, I just don't understand your thinking on how and why a consciousness needs to be involved in determining the actual physical state of a particle once it is observed. It seems to me that even though science doesn't fully understand it, that it is probably a natural process. Besides, some ideas, like the many-worlds hypothesis, eliminates the measurement problem altogether. Gaps in our knowledge do not imply a god and I am really having a hard time understanding how this specific gap can be answered by the introduction of such a being.

well first off, I dont disagree with the FACTS, but most of the big bang is theory. The universe was not created from nothing, it had to be created from something we perceive as nothing; dark matter is a good candidate if you ask me. but as for information were basing off of it, just turn on the history channel when its about space...then tell me how much of that you believe
Please learn some science, especially the meaning of scientific theory. A theory is not a guess or hunch, it is a solid model of nature that explain the facts we observe. Theories do not somehow get elevated to facts, they remain a theory and get improved upon over time. Is it a 'fact' that bacteria and viruses cause disease? No, it is part of germ theory. Is it a fact that splitting atoms releases massive amounts of energy? No, it is part of a theory borne from special relativity. We test these theories all of the time and they appear to be accurate and eventually become indistinguishable from fact yet nature has a way of throwing us curve balls and a theory can be amended and improved to become even more accurate and precise. In science, we reserve the use of the word 'fact' to mean the data collected, the observations we make. A theory is always a composite of a lot of facts with some reasoning as to why these facts behave as they do. A theory is about the why and how things occur, the mechanism behind the facts that we can see.

Second, the BBT does not say the universe came from nothing although that is common to hear similar statements in many popularized science shows and articles but it is misleading and ultimately incorrect. The only thing that the BBT says for sure is that at one point, approximately 13.7 bya, our universe existed in a small, hot, dense state and then something happened and it began to expand rapidly. The theory does not answer (yet) what preceded this extremely small, hot universe or where it came from if it didn't always exist.
 

Evil Buddies

Ganja King
The measurement problem is a problem and if i knew the problem it wouldnt be the measurement problem. I dont think u understand what im saying so i will say it again a final time. We live in a 3D world we are limited to 3D and the physics in 3D. Now the physics in 4D or higher might have different laws of physics. Now that different laws of physics is governed by a higher power. I use the words higher power as we cant imagine or comprehend what it is. It is something that we dont know that controls it wether its due to the physics of 4D. Maybe it could be due to what makes up our world is displayed to us by our 5 sences. Maybe our bodies is not possible of knowing other things that cant be picked up by just the 5 sences we have. Our conciousness determines the behaviour of atoms. Now if our conciousness that u believe is just thought. Then how could our conciousness if not connected to anything else but our body, how can that change the appearance of an atom. To me it suggests that our conciousness is connected to atoms in some way. That we can manipulate atoms with our own thought and conciousness. I dont have all the answers I can only show u the way I see it.

Evil
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
The measurement problem is a problem and if i knew the problem it wouldnt be the measurement problem. I dont think u understand what im saying so i will say it again a final time. We live in a 3D world we are limited to 3D and the physics in 3D. Now the physics in 4D or higher might have different laws of physics. Now that different laws of physics is governed by a higher power. I use the words higher power as we cant imagine or comprehend what it is. It is something that we dont know that controls it wether its due to the physics of 4D. Maybe it could be due to what makes up our world is displayed to us by our 5 sences. Maybe our bodies is not possible of knowing other things that cant be picked up by just the 5 sences we have. Our conciousness determines the behaviour of atoms. Now if our conciousness that u believe is just thought. Then how could our conciousness if not connected to anything else but our body, how can that change the appearance of an atom. To me it suggests that our conciousness is connected to atoms in some way. That we can manipulate atoms with our own thought and conciousness. I dont have all the answers I can only show u the way I see it.

Evil
Thanks for clarifying that. First off, we don't necessarily live in a 3d world. Spacetime is 4 dimensions and current physics hypothesizes as many as 10 spatial dimensions plus time for 11 total. The extra dimensions may be very small and curled up into Calabi-Yau shapes. No where is there evidence that more dimensions has different physics, especially if the extra dimensions are required/responsible for the physics we observe. Higher dimensions either exist or they don't but the physics of this particular universe appears consistent no matter how many dimensions there turn out to be.
The idea that consciousness affects atoms is only partially correct. It is the act of observation which defines the characteristics of a particle and that entails more than just an existing disembodied consciousness, it requires interaction with that particle. Even our eyes are instruments that interact with photons. This is the basis of what Heisenberg told us that the very act of observing a subatomic particle influences it, not in some esoteric mystical way but because particles are affected directly by the other particles we use to detect them. There is absolutely no evidence that mere thought will affect the subatomic and sounds more like a misunderstanding of quantum field theory. So far everything in particle physics, even the gaps in our knowledge like the measurement problem all can potentially be explained in a naturalistic way. There is no need to invoke a deity.
 
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