Smoke N Grow nutes versus Jack's Professional
- Thread starter riddleme
- Start date
riddleme
Well-Known Member
That is correct, the raining process will release nutes within the soil, but keep an eye out cause as you get closer to the end these nutes (in the soil) will diminish
Bonzi Lighthouse
Well-Known Member
Seems like this method is better suited for soil less medium.
Boonierat
Well-Known Member
Ah, and now it becomes clear to me. Cool. I picked up what looks like some pretty good Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Mix. Not the soil. It's got very little nutes in it. Going with a roughly 60/40 mix/perlite ratio. I'll be using the rain technique on this grow with Jack's Dynamic Duo. Gonna start raining roughly at three weeks old or so. Depending on how they are looking.It works both ways, beauty of others experimentin is that the technique can be refined or modified to fit your garden
In soil that has some nutes in it such as FFOF waiting makes sure you don't over nute em
in a soilless medium that has no nutes in it you want to add nutes sooner, don't want em going days with no food
riddleme
Well-Known Member
Why I use sunshine mix #4
gumball
Well-Known Member
Or even 50/50 soil perlite. The more airy the better I think.Why I use sunshine mix #4
I have to say though, I really enjoy using 16 oz cups when it comes time to flood my garden when I hear y'all talk about 2 gallons and 5 gallons
It takes an hour to flood all mine, but the whole thing only took a gallon. Now its time to hit 'em with nutes 
Illumination
New Member
ROTFLMFAO!!!Sorry I missed it also. I did listen to that damn song three times and I am positive it makes no referance to MJ. Sad thing is I'll be singing it to myself all damn day!WATER PUMPIN!!!!!
Peace
Big
BYG'S DA WATER PUMPING MON!!
ROTFLMFAO!!
Bro I have tears in my eyes you got me laughin so hard!!!
Namaste'
Illumination
New Member
I found the feed right at the end works best for me....Is my personal twist on it that works best for me in my garden
Namaste'
i do it this way in a FFLW/OF mix and it works fine...am currently growing in Light Warrior/ Perilite 50/50 but my coop grow is FFLW/OC mix...next will be a cowboylogic inspired mix of ProMix BX with mychro, worm castings, dolomite lime, diatomaceous earth, Azomite and perilte...and yes at least 40-50% perilte or some other filler that aerates the soil and drains it well is a BIG PLUS for making it rain
gumball
Well-Known Member
I do it this way too Lumi. They seem to show signs of any problems quicker that way, and the growth is great!I found the feed right at the end works best for me....Is my personal twist on it that works best for me in my garden
Namaste'
i do it this way in a FFLW/OF mix and it works fine...am currently growing in Light Warrior/ Perilite 50/50 but my coop grow is FFLW/OC mix...next will be a cowboylogic inspired mix of ProMix BX with mychro, worm castings, dolomite lime, diatomaceous earth, Azomite and perilte...and yes at least 40-50% perilte or some other filler that aerates the soil and drains it well is a BIG PLUS for making it rain
Dr. Nuggett
Member
I love ya Illumination and God knows riddleme is a pro full of useful information. I do however believe I wouldn't try cowboylogic inspired mix with the make it rain technique. I think it would wash out all the good little beasties and nutes you mixed into your medium. Just a thought!
Oh and I don't know how anyone with half a brain would call the rain technique bad advise just for all the air that would be pulled through the roots in your medium.
Oh and I don't know how anyone with half a brain would call the rain technique bad advise just for all the air that would be pulled through the roots in your medium.
rastadred22
Well-Known Member
so riddle i have been making it rain by a big phd watering and then letting it dry out a bit then feeding...so i shouldnt be doing this using the promix? promix is peat. based
riddleme
Well-Known Member
With the peat I have just been waiting an hour after they perk back up to add nutes
rastadred22
Well-Known Member
ok ill give that a try n see if there is a difference
Illumination
New Member
I supplement with Fox Farm Big Bloom and Molasses occasionally between rains...plus I inoculate 4 times per grow with Earth Nectar and Earth Ambrosia ....I do use ferts with urea nitrogen and the bugs are alive and well as it greens them up much better than the Nitrate "N"
So I think it will do fine....and thank you for the love...back at ya
Namaste'
dudeoflife
Well-Known Member
Yeah, been brainstorming on how to include Urea as a part of the toolkit. Nitrate "N" Gets 'em green, and Urea sure does get them greener when supplemented in small amounts in soil.....I do use ferts with urea nitrogen and the bugs are alive and well as it greens them up much better than the Nitrate "N"
Namaste'
Shouldn't be the primary source though, as nitrates are the slow and steady sources of N. Ammonium instead of Urea is good, too, as a supplemental, instant absorption.
Illumination
New Member
From an administrator at Sensi Seeds
"Advanced - Flushing
A critical look at preharvest flushing
Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.
The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html
http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf
The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
http://www.sidwell.edu
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
http://www.sirinet.net
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
Summary:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."
Now one would believe that Mr. Sensi knows what he is talking about right? And he backs it up with links to UNIVERSITIES!!! Not Rosenthal, Cervantes, or Frank for that matter, but real institutes of learning ....by botanist and horticulturists with PHD's...not stoners reading books and thinking they know it all.......
RM3 and CL and UB we are right and here's the proof...You can flush a toilet but not a plant!! And if you do you are hurting it and the taste!!!
Namaste'
"Advanced - Flushing
A critical look at preharvest flushing
Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.
The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html
http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf
The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
http://www.sidwell.edu
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
http://www.sirinet.net
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
Summary:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."
Now one would believe that Mr. Sensi knows what he is talking about right? And he backs it up with links to UNIVERSITIES!!! Not Rosenthal, Cervantes, or Frank for that matter, but real institutes of learning ....by botanist and horticulturists with PHD's...not stoners reading books and thinking they know it all.......
RM3 and CL and UB we are right and here's the proof...You can flush a toilet but not a plant!! And if you do you are hurting it and the taste!!!
Namaste'
cowboylogic
Well-Known Member
Lumi that post alone should be a sticky. Great info dude!