Waco - Crazy Cult or Government Murders?

[Carthoris]

Recently, my wife and I were eating at a sports bar and they were talking about the death toll of government attacks in Libya. My wife asked if something like that could every happen in America and if our military would really do that sort of thing. By that she meant killing American citizens. I mentioned Waco, Ruby Ridge, and a few other incidents. She didn't know about them, she thought I was misremembering it and we went online to look at the info. It having been a long time ago, I reread the information and watched the videos again. She was totally disgusted by our governments response, and honestly, it renewed my distrust in the government also. I have been thinking a lot about it lately, and I would really like to know what everyone else thinks about it.

You can see my opinion of the actions of the government in the preceding sentences. I am going to try phrasing the poll so the answers are not leaning one direction or another.

 

[Ernst]

By Government I suspect you mean our Constitutional one, however, our Economic one is willing to kill and does so every day.

We may have Laws but Money is it's own form of government world wide.

 

[kevin]

i knew david koresh when he was still going by the name of vernom howell. he was a bit of a basket case when i knew him but i would of never guessed his end would of came like it did and it never should of. the way the goverment handle that situation was nothing but wrong.

 

[Carthoris]

You replied before I even posted the poll, lol.

 

[Carthoris]

It took me a minute to try to take prejudice out of the poll options.

 

[Rob Roy]

It's possible both answers might be the answer. Koresh may have had a cult. It's also possible that "legal" murder was committed.
I understand there were children that died. Somebody fucked up somewhere....

If you really think about what a cult is, you need look no further than certain things we accept as "normal". Why do judges wear robes, clergy too? Why do we salute inanimate pieces of cloth and pledge allegiance to it? If ritualistic incantations are cult signs, watch what happens next time you go a ball game and 50,000 people get up and place their hand over their heart and half mumble the words to a cultish song many have no idea of the origin or meaning. Point of view influences our judgement when we declare others cultish and under similar circumstances deny any "cult' exists in our own mannerisms and practices.

I hear some people belong to a cult that reveres 4:20...and guess what the government wants to jail them too!

 

[Carthoris]

It's possible both answers might be the answer. Koresh may have had a cult. It's also possible that "legal" murder was committed.
I understand there were children that died. Somebody fucked up somewhere....

If you really think about what a cult is, you need look no further than certain things we accept as "normal". Why do judges wear robes, clergy too? Why do we salute inanimate pieces of cloth and pledge allegiance to it? If ritualistic incantations are cult signs, watch what happens next time you go a ball game and 50,000 people get up and place their hand over their heart and half mumble the words to a cultish song many have no idea of the origin or meaning. Point of view influences our judgement when we declare others cultish and under similar circumstances deny any "cult' exists in our own mannerisms and practices.

I hear some people belong to a cult that reveres 4:20...and guess what the government wants to jail them too!

lol, I think the legal murders and cult but not doing anything wrong is implied in the poll options. I wasn't commenting on society as much as just trying to get everyones idea on what happened. I would consider all religions to be cults, and I would also consider a cult to just be a description of something, and not necessarily a bad thing. However, the word carries a stigma.

The death toll was seventy-six people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege#cite_note-caesar-2 died in the fire, including more than 20 children, two pregnant women, and Koresh himself.

 

[Ernst]

Well, we need to review..
Here is David speaking for himself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10gBL3PMw7o

What I would pick in the poll would be Guns and Religion don't mix.

Defiantly The Branches (David's) fault. There are children there and this guy is planning a war.

However, I am open to reading about what we can do to change our Law Enforcement for the better.

 

[PeachOibleBoiblePeach#1]

Crazy cult.

 

[Carthoris]

Well, we need to review..
Here is David speaking for himself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10gBL3PMw7o

What I would pick in the poll would be Guns and Religion don't mix.

Defiantly The Branches (David's) fault. There are children there and this guy is planning a war.

However, I am open to reading about what we can do to change our Law Enforcement for the better.

Obviously this was recorded after it had already started, he is referring to what happened. The Government had no legal reason to get a warrant, had no legal right to invade the house to begin with. He wasn't planning a war, he was fighting one at the point where that was recorded. If you were in your house and people started shooting at you illegally- wouldn't you think you have the right to defend yourself?

 

[Carthoris]

Crazy cult.

Agreed. Dude was nuttier than squirrel shit. However, was he really doing anything wrong?

 

[Ernst]

Agreed. Dude was nuttier than squirrel shit. However, was he really doing anything wrong?

Is it true he considered himself God and was deflowering the 12 year olds of his group?

 

[UncleBuck]

Agreed. Dude was nuttier than squirrel shit. However, was he really doing anything wrong?

hard to know for sure, but all signs point to yes.

it's been a while since i watched all the fantastical conspiracy tapes about it (obviously tilted towards the "government murder" angle), but from what i remember, they did have a warrant to enter based on illegal firearms.

so they try to execute this warrant, nuttier than squirrel shit "koresh" with his messiah complex has his people fire on the people serving the warrant. end of story.

not really the end, but that is all you need to do if you want to make yourself a target.

of course, it could have been handled better, but i have no sympathies for ol' vern and his bunch of loons.

 

[Ernst]

Again was he saying he was God and having sex with the under-age girls of his group?

If this is the case it's hard to defend the issue of Constitutional rights violations but I do not defend Law Enforcement for dealing with this as they did.

 

[Bonzi Lighthouse]

Here is the warrant.
http://www.constitution.org/waco/affidavt.htm

 

[Ernst]

Mrs. Bunds also told me that Howell had fathered at least fifteen children from various women and young girls at the compound. Some of the girls who had babies fathered by Howell were as young as 12 years old. She had personally delivered 7 of these children. According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, according to Mrs. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls ages are from 11 years old to adulthood.

I'd think taking action was justified. How it was handled was not the right thing to have done but action was justified.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely..

 

[PeachOibleBoiblePeach#1]

I do not agree with the outcome that transpired. But that is wasted tax payer's dollars,,,They ended it for a moment in time,,,But here they are again,,,,Yike's Paranoia weed.

 

[Carthoris]

Is it true he considered himself God and was deflowering the 12 year olds of his group?

I really don't think it was. The ATF doesn't have the right to raid houses on either of those issues anyway. The DCF(Family Childrens Services) investigated twice on the abuse before the attack by government forces and found no evidence of abuse. Those allegations were leveled by someone that had tried to take over the church and had been exiled.

 

[Carthoris]

hard to know for sure, but all signs point to yes.

it's been a while since i watched all the fantastical conspiracy tapes about it (obviously tilted towards the "government murder" angle), but from what i remember, they did have a warrant to enter based on illegal firearms.

so they try to execute this warrant, nuttier than squirrel shit "koresh" with his messiah complex has his people fire on the people serving the warrant. end of story.

not really the end, but that is all you need to do if you want to make yourself a target.

of course, it could have been handled better, but i have no sympathies for ol' vern and his bunch of loons.

Having a warrant and having a legal warrant are two different things. The warrant was based on "hearing machine gun fire" from the compound. The machine guns were also legally owned, one of the members had a license for it. David also invited them to his home to inspect his weapons when the ATF months earlier had went to the gunshop they bought most of the guns at.

 

[Carthoris]

Again was he saying he was God and having sex with the under-age girls of his group?

If this is the case it's hard to defend the issue of Constitutional rights violations but I do not defend Law Enforcement for dealing with this as they did.

He never said he was God. That is a quote taken out of context. The entire conversation was with a reporter and went something like this:

Reporter: So he says you got his 75 year old grandmother pregnant, what do you say to that?

David: If I can get a 75 year old woman pregnant, you better watch out because Im god.

It was obviously sarcastic or mocking. The person who said David K got his 75 year old grandmother pregnant? The same person who said he had machine guns and that he was molesting children. You know, the same guy who tried to take over the church and got exiled. In no way could this man be considered a reliable source.