Libya: No Fly Zone is a Go! International Effort and No Troops on the Ground

[redivider]

Bravo redivider!!!!!!

You've got a real knack for putting words into people's mouths. I never said anything about it being "exactly the same scenario" nor did I imply such a thing. That's absurd! What I said was "Isn't this kinda similar?". You can go back and check the post. I also didn't say Saddam was a threat to us. I gave specific examples of what Saddam had done in violation of just about every convention and treaty on the planet by his use of chemical weapons in the 80's. We know there was a program, and we knew he had weapons at some point. He used them on his own people! He invaded his neighbor and threatened an invasion into Saudi Arabia. I remember it well.........I was there...........for months! He kicked out UN inspectors, multiple times! He violated the no fly zones on an almost weekly basis for years! Look, I'm not going to continue the history lesson because I think everybody knows what Saddam did. Gaddafi isn't even in the same league as Saddam was! This is a civil war which has not spilled out of Libya's borders yet. If/when that happens, I may revise my position. This doesn't involve us in any way shape or form. We have too many of our own issues to be getting involved in this conflict. You go on and blindly cheerlead your progressive messiah.

don't bitch at me for past president's mistakes. and to be fair we live in a completely different world from the 1980's. back then hotels had phone banks in the lobby, sending a 200 page document took around 45 minutes and was done through fax, the closest thing to google was the local library, pictures were taken on kodak film....

back then we heard about it, maybe, b/c foreign press would be expelled and news just didn't travel around the world the way it does now.... just not the same.

and i still don't believe that an additional 100,000 civilians should've been killed to get saddam out of power. a shot to the head from a sniper a' la' kennedy would've sufficed.

do you think America should stand idly by while the types of atrocities sadam committed in the 80's now a days, with live Al-Jazeera streaming, Skype, satellite phones, youtube and facebook...??? i don't either. let's not make the same mistakes we did with saddam.

it's not the same. and this isn't an all out invasion. this guy is shooting at churches, hospitals, and at people who don't stay locked indoors and away from windows... the 'rebels' were asking the world for help. they were close to liberating themselves from this maniac and we just let him bomb the shit out of his own people.....

 

[Ernst]

This is a joint effort. I think we are supplying air re-fueling and logistics support.
We did work with the Brits to get those Cruse missiles.


But the French are the ones flying the missions and are widely supported by the rebels I understand.


This is the second night of cruse missiles and I understand we put one in his compound which they had the media in to see but was a phoney bomb site although it was verified that a cruse missile did hit the compound.

So the morning is coming for Libya now and a new news day will start.

Oh check out the Videos thread and see a Charlie Sheen and Gaddafi spoof.

 

[doc111]

don't bitch at me for past president's mistakes. and to be fair we live in a completely different world from the 1980's. back then hotels had phone banks in the lobby, sending a 200 page document took around 45 minutes and was done through fax, the closest thing to google was the local library, pictures were taken on kodak film....

back then we heard about it, maybe, b/c foreign press would be expelled and news just didn't travel around the world the way it does now.... just not the same.

and i still don't believe that an additional 100,000 civilians should've been killed to get saddam out of power. a shot to the head from a sniper a' la' kennedy would've sufficed.

do you think America should stand idly by while the types of atrocities sadam committed in the 80's now a days, with live Al-Jazeera streaming, Skype, satellite phones, youtube and facebook...??? i don't either. let's not make the same mistakes we did with saddam.

it's not the same. and this isn't an all out invasion. this guy is shooting at churches, hospitals, and at people who don't stay locked indoors and away from windows... the 'rebels' were asking the world for help. they were close to liberating themselves from this maniac and we just let him bomb the shit out of his own people.....

We know very little about these rebels. I'm not sure what your reference to technological advancement has to do with the price of fatbacks?????? These "rebels" have been around for, what, about a month now? Come one! We shouldn't blindly jump into anything. Just because it's not an all out invasion.............yet, doesn't mean it's not bad. People are still dying. Those same rebels who are begging the UN for help are the same ones that sent a group of MI6/SAS who were trying to help, packing! We are kind of making worse mistakes than we did with Saddam IMO! Do we have a plan for a government after Gaddafi is out or are we just gonna wing it like we did with Iraq?

 

[tip top toker]

Look at it this way. They are rebels. The bad guys of the country in question. Other than a pathetic "booo gadaffi boooo" opinion, i can't think of a single justification for going to war against the population of a country, and not the rebels. Sounds a bit daft, that is to say there's a motive.

As i have said, place this in the modern, civilized western world, and the justifications given in this thread for war, would be utterly and totally invalid as far as we were concerned. This whole thing, not to mention iraq and afghanistan, it's all based aroudn the fact that "we" think they're worthless rats, we don't seem to give tow shits or even consider them human. Libya is almost guaranteed to become simply the next unfinishable war for us, so after how many civilian murders do they gain justification in launching missiles against us? Because fuck, we started a war because a few buildings fell over, so when we then go and kill thousands upon thousands upon thousands of civilians, surely they should be allowed to send over the bombers and personel and tell us our laws, military, everything about our life no longer means shit as they're in charge until they deem it safe to leave. No, we're selfish cunts with nothing but self-betterment and getting our own way on our minds.

So yeah, two points. Why the fuck do we think that our civilian losses mean EVERYTHING and their is just an "oh well" event, i mean at least the taliban if they did do as they claimed, had the fuciing balls to stand up and claim responsiblity, look at the US and their drones, i find it fucing pathetic, you're not even at war with pakistan, nor allowed to send drones in, yet you'll happily fly around killing off their tribeal leaders and shit , cus why not, they were hardly important, and then refuse to accept responsiblity, fucking WEAK! And secondly how can you morally call a civilian an enemy purely because he doesn't think the same as you when it's not your country in question?

Let me guess, you're all utterly butt hurt over the littel locker ie incident? lame

 

[doc111]

Look at it this way. They are rebels. The bad guys of the country in question. Other than a pathetic "booo gadaffi boooo" opinion, i can't think of a single justification for going to war against the population of a country, and not the rebels. Sounds a bit daft, that is to say there's a motive.

As i have said, place this in the modern, civilized western world, and the justifications given in this thread for war, would be utterly and totally invalid as far as we were concerned. This whole thing, not to mention iraq and afghanistan, it's all based aroudn the fact that "we" think they're worthless rats, we don't seem to give tow shits or even consider them human. Libya is almost guaranteed to become simply the next unfinishable war for us, so after how many civilian murders do they gain justification in launching missiles against us? Because fuck, we started a war because a few buildings fell over, so when we then go and kill thousands upon thousands upon thousands of civilians, surely they should be allowed to send over the bombers and personel and tell us our laws, military, everything about our life no longer means shit as they're in charge until they deem it safe to leave. No, we're selfish cunts with nothing but self-betterment and getting our own way on our minds.

So yeah, two points. Why the fuck do we think that our civilian losses mean EVERYTHING and their is just an "oh well" event, i mean at least the taliban if they did do as they claimed, had the fuciing balls to stand up and claim responsiblity, look at the US and their drones, i find it fucing pathetic, you're not even at war with pakistan, nor allowed to send drones in, yet you'll happily fly around killing off their tribeal leaders and shit , cus why not, they were hardly important, and then refuse to accept responsiblity, fucking WEAK! And secondly how can you morally call a civilian an enemy purely because he doesn't think the same as you when it's not your country in question?

Let me guess, you're all utterly butt hurt over the littel locker ie incident? lame

I would agree with everything here except the part about "buildings falling over". They didn't fall over, they were brought down by religious fanatics using jetliners as missiles. Aside from that I'd say everything else is pretty accurate.

 

[redivider]

We know very little about these rebels. I'm not sure what your reference to technological advancement has to do with the price of fatbacks?????? These "rebels" have been around for, what, about a month now? Come one! We shouldn't blindly jump into anything. Just because it's not an all out invasion.............yet, doesn't mean it's not bad. People are still dying. Those same rebels who are begging the UN for help are the same ones that sent a group of MI6/SAS who were trying to help, packing! We are kind of making worse mistakes than we did with Saddam IMO! Do we have a plan for a government after Gaddafi is out or are we just gonna wing it like we did with Iraq?

we're not blindly jumping into anything. if you didn't realize it it took over 4 weeks for the international community to agree on what to do. blindly jumping in would've been getting involved before. but no. there were meetings behind meetings behind meetings. there was delay after delay.

and they sent the british troops home b/c they didn't want a foreign army fighting their war. at that time they had no idea that ghadaffi was going to go to the extremes he went to. "no mercy", those were his words and he meant it.... what started as civil turmoil turned into violent clashes when the leader of that country sent his military to shoot at his own citizens and the world cannot stand idly by while that happens.

 

[redivider]

just noticed fox news' take on the story:

Next Step in Lybia after the US Led Air Assault.

the US didn't lead this. We responded to an international call by our Allies. it is a UN authorized, mandated and enforced No-Fly Zone. The action was led by France, it is based in Italy, and is using US and British Tomahawk Cruise missiles during initial phases..... talk about skewing the news..... geez....

 

[ChubbySoap]

yes we can...we do it all the time...

there must be something of more value than mere human at life at stake here...bets anyone?

 

[doc111]

we're not blindly jumping into anything. if you didn't realize it it took over 4 weeks for the international community to agree on what to do. blindly jumping in would've been getting involved before. but no. there were meetings behind meetings behind meetings. there was delay after delay.

and they sent the british troops home b/c they didn't want a foreign army fighting their war. at that time they had no idea that ghadaffi was going to go to the extremes he went to. "no mercy", those were his words and he meant it.... what started as civil turmoil turned into violent clashes when the leader of that country sent his military to shoot at his own citizens and the world cannot stand idly by while that happens.

The world stands "idly by" all the time!!!!!!! 4 weeks? Are you fucking serious? In the military world that is like 2 seconds and that IS blindly jumping in! Would you like me to run down a list in just the last 20 years of other conflicts and genocides where we've done zilch? The poor rebels. They took up arms against their own country and ya know what, I wish them all the best, but this is a civil war. We have no business getting involved. What are the goals here? Do we know what the rebels want (aside from Gaddafi gone)? I now realize that you lefties bitching about Iraq was nothing more than partisan bullshit. I suspected it all along, but now I have confirmation. Thanks!

 

[MrDank007]

The world stands "idly by" all the time!!!!!!! 4 weeks? Are you fucking serious? In the military world that is like 2 seconds and that IS blindly jumping in! Would you like me to run down a list in just the last 20 years of other conflicts and genocides where we've done zilch? The poor rebels. They took up arms against their own country and ya know what, I wish them all the best, but this is a civil war. We have no business getting involved. What are the goals here? Do we know what the rebels want (aside from Gaddafi gone)? I now realize that you lefties bitching about Iraq was nothing more than partisan bullshit. I suspected it all along, but now I have confirmation. Thanks!

To recap:
Still in Afganistan
Still in Iraq
Gitmo still open
Now in Libya

CHANGE! I'll put a $100 on this line being used in the next election. "We do not need to revert back to the failed policies of George Bush, which got us in this mess in the first place."

 

[DrFever]

a lot of you people here dont get it what does usa do BUY export oil thats why there there its got nothing to do with them rebels there just saying it but it comes down to one thing OIL

Libya, a socialist country led by Muammar Gaddafi famous as a storehouse of oil. Abundant natural resources make this North African country became the world’s largest oil exporter to-12.
Third largest oil producer in Africa, after Nigeria and Angola, it has Sirte basin, which is the biggest backer Libyan oil production. The basin contains 44 billion barrels or about 80 percent of the country’s oil reserves. Basin is the largest reserve in Africa.
Libyan oil is famous for Light Sweet type with low sulfur content. Crude oil is ideal processed into gasoline and diesel. Although no official data, it is estimated nearly 95 percent of oil and natural gas production exported Libya.
The World Bank noted, more than half of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) derived from the Libyan oil and gas industry. In 2009, Libya’s GDP of U.S. $ 62.36 billion. Hear that only 6.4 million inhabitants, the country’s income per capita of U.S. $ 12,020. Very high when compared with Indonesia, which in 2010 alone, the new U.S. $ 3,000.
Regarding poverty, the World Bank did not have the data. They report only the free population illiterate in Libya by 88 percent in 2008.
Before the riots started, the country’s economy is booming. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) said Libya’s economy last year grew 10.6 percent and is projected to grow 6.2 percent this year.
However, one of the reasons for the protests of the people who want Muammar Gaddafi’s retreat is that oil wealth does not trickle up to the general population. According to some estimates, as quoted by the BBC, about a third of Libya’s population live in poverty.
Libya’s population is common to have two jobs to increase their income. Although the cost of health and community services there for free, it still has not helped their living standards.

 

[redivider]

The world stands "idly by" all the time!!!!!!! 4 weeks? Are you fucking serious? In the military world that is like 2 seconds and that IS blindly jumping in! Would you like me to run down a list in just the last 20 years of other conflicts and genocides where we've done zilch? The poor rebels. They took up arms against their own country and ya know what, I wish them all the best, but this is a civil war. We have no business getting involved. What are the goals here? Do we know what the rebels want (aside from Gaddafi gone)? I now realize that you lefties bitching about Iraq was nothing more than partisan bullshit. I suspected it all along, but now I have confirmation. Thanks!

go ahead and run down a list. i can almost guarantee you that the US was either instrumental in setting up or tearing down the regime that started genocide.

This is not a 'civil' war. This isn't one side vs. another. It's the leader of a country using the army which is supposed to be used for national defense as his own personal firing squad killing his people indiscriminately in all of the major cities in his country.

We are in iraq nearly 10 years later. we will not be in Lybia in 2021 because we are not at war. We shot cruise missiles at Lybia, we didn't invade the country.

IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO THEN THERE'S NOT MUCH I CAN DO FOR YOU.

 

[tip top toker]

The world stands "idly by" all the time!!!!!!! 4 weeks? Are you fucking serious? In the military world that is like 2 seconds and that IS blindly jumping in! Would you like me to run down a list in just the last 20 years of other conflicts and genocides where we've done zilch? The poor rebels. They took up arms against their own country and ya know what, I wish them all the best, but this is a civil war. We have no business getting involved. What are the goals here? Do we know what the rebels want (aside from Gaddafi gone)? I now realize that you lefties bitching about Iraq was nothing more than partisan bullshit. I suspected it all along, but now I have confirmation. Thanks!

Exactly. It is a civil war, what the fuck are we doing there? Or is it therefore acceptable for oh i don't know, china to go and join gadaffi in the civil war. There is no question of "helping" and "protecting" it is a civil war we are joining in because we fancy the benefits of rebels succeeding. What's to stop i don't know, north korea, from sending in a huge squadron of jets to aid gadaffi.

Just been reading about the little old plane that fell out of the sky after not even a week, "mechanical failure" they say, kinda like the mechanical failure that was fucking up all the helicopters in iraq eh, good old forward planning, who needs it for fuck

And yes, we all stand by completely idly when anything goes on that doesn't effect us financially. Yet whenever it happens to be a country where there are certain fringe benefits to be had should you take it over, well we just jump right in, 3 times running. I'll be the first to say that for the so called 1st world, the civilized world, we're a bunch of stupid ass greedy motherfuckers, i quite honestly beleive that we all need a bit of a sustained attack against our cities, show us what it's like to get shot up going to work, er're uncompasionate cunts, just look at the response to the apache video to understand that view

 

[DrFever]

REBELS are the ones fed up an want a cut of the oil
Before the riots started, the country’s economy is booming. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) said Libya’s economy last year grew 10.6 percent and is projected to grow 6.2 percent this year.
However, one of the reasons for the protests of the people who want Muammar Gaddafi’s retreat is that oil wealth does not trickle up to the general population. According to some estimates, as quoted by the BBC, about a third of Libya’s population live in poverty

tell me who wouldnt Rebel if your country was doin this and you lived in poverty but guess what being a rebel is wrong theres always 2 sides of A story and for most we dont get to much real indepth of whats really happening being NEWS is censored they only will release what the government wants you to know thats it thats all

just think things sure hit the Fan when wikii leaks came out huh how usa wants his head lot more shit goin on in the real world that were never goin to know about

just think about it this way a asteriod coming to hit earth you think there goin to announce it ??
or a all out nuclear war only thing you might here is a alarm go off but dude thats it

how about during world war 2 when stalin, churchill rosevelt were already re -designing borders of countrys war still goin on an what gave them the right etc what would you do if someone walked to your door of your house and said you got 5 mins get ur shit out or you die LEAVE now
we should all consider ourselfs lucky

years back i drilled over seas ( kuwait , russia etc ) to go into these places where you see armed personel tanks to even leave my compound i had 6 armed body guards etc is not a pretty place most of civillians only see this goin to a airshow here
i just forgot one piece of my Id at airport and had a Ak47 at my head for 4 fckin hrs laying nose down on the tarmac

 

[tip top toker]

REBELS are the ones fed up an want a cut of the oil
Before the riots started, the country’s economy is booming. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) said Libya’s economy last year grew 10.6 percent and is projected to grow 6.2 percent this year.
However, one of the reasons for the protests of the people who want Muammar Gaddafi’s retreat is that oil wealth does not trickle up to the general population. According to some estimates, as quoted by the BBC, about a third of Libya’s population live in poverty

tell me who wouldnt Rebel if your country was doin this and you lived in poverty but guess what being a rebel is wrong theres always 2 sides of A story and for most we dont get to much real indepth of whats really happening being NEWS is censored they only will release what the government wants you to know thats it thats all

And oil is so different from the banks? Last i looked RBS and co FUCKED the UK utterly and totally, the population had to bail them out against their will, only to find the bkaners take that money and just divvy it out between themselves. So again, where is our foreign invasion coming to help us? Then as a result of the banks fucking us over so much, we then face tax increase, tuitiopng fee increase, budget cuts, budget cuts, fine increases, food price increases, fuel price increases. How is their situation any different to ours? They're robnbing us of our livelihoods and money and hope. Someone needs to bomb the shit out of the banks. And it's not like we don't have good numbers of folk living in "poverty" either, which tied in with the banks fucking us, massively increased benefit dependancy further fucking up the country. Where the fuck is my bomber squadron!

 

[ginjawarrior]

And oil is so different from the banks? Last i looked RBS and co FUCKED the UK utterly and totally, the population had to bail them out against their will, only to find the bkaners take that money and just divvy it out between themselves. So again, where is our foreign invasion coming to help us? Then as a result of the banks fucking us over so much, we then face tax increase, tuitiopng fee increase, budget cuts, budget cuts, fine increases, food price increases, fuel price increases. How is their situation any different to ours? They're robnbing us of our livelihoods and money and hope. Someone needs to bomb the shit out of the banks. And it's not like we don't have good numbers of folk living in "poverty" either, which tied in with the banks fucking us, massively increased benefit dependancy further fucking up the country. Where the fuck is my bomber squadron!

erm we get to vote for who we want in power thats a big fucking difference there

we get to protest without having anti aircraft guns being turned upon us

things might not be shit hot in the uk but you show your ignorance to it all when you try comparing it to libya

 

[tip top toker]

erm we get to vote for who we want in power thats a big fucking difference there

we get to protest without having anti aircraft guns being turned upon us

things might not be shit hot in the uk but you show your ignorance to it all when you try comparing it to libya

Let me think, how many people voted for lib-con, none What happened when we protest as we have a lawful right to do so, oh right, the police bring out the horses dogs and body armour and proceed to beat the shit out of us, and kill on occasions, should we wish to move our protest forward. It certainly isn't the exact same scale, but it's little different, it is a bunch of power mad codgers with inflated ego adament that they will retain complete control. And yes, if we were to take to our protest with guns, the police and the army would deploy, and we would have weapos drawn against us, and then i wonder what would happen if we refused to put them down, chances are it wouldn't be a case of carry on then Until then though, they'll just happily use tazers because oh, they're non-lethal. Last time i was watching some war films, it seemed to me that electricity was used as a savagely painful torture method. You must be very very naive to think we live in a wonderfuil functonal country, we're fucked and the govcernemnt couldn't give two shits about us so long as the money sheets show growth.

 

[DrFever]

Let me think, how many people voted for lib-con, none What happened when we protest as we have a lawful right to do so, oh right, the police bring out the horses dogs and body armour and proceed to beat the shit out of us, and kill on occasions, should we wish to move our protest forward. It certainly isn't the exact same scale, but it's little different, it is a bunch of power mad codgers with inflated ego adament that they will retain complete control. And yes, if we were to take to our protest with guns, the police and the army would deploy, and we would have weapos drawn against us, and then i wonder what would happen if we refused to put them down, chances are it wouldn't be a case of carry on then Until then though, they'll just happily use tazers because oh, they're non-lethal. Last time i was watching some war films, it seemed to me that electricity was used as a savagely painful torture method. You must be very very naive to think we live in a wonderfuil functonal country, we're fucked and the govcernemnt couldn't give two shits about us so long as the money sheets show growth.

you got some good views there

 

[Mellowman2112]

U.S., the Brits and France fucking the shit out of Ghadafi. 110 tomahawk cruise missiles launched at strategic air defenses.

yup at a million and a half a piece. Another 180 million to toss onto the deficits. Notice food prices lately? The central bankers caused caused these riots in the gulf states by their reckless monetary policy.Their currency is tied to our dollar. My dollars buy alot less these days. Anyways, So the Central Bankers can now loan us more money with another nice little war. CHA CHING Cha Ching. Don't be surprised when we have our own food riots. Then they will disarm us all. One at a time in the dead of night. Just like they did in Katrina. Where is Charlton Heston when you need him?

 

[Mellowman2112]

The president does not have the authority to wage war against other countries, no matter how crappy a leader that country has. Congress is the only authority, we should not be involved over there, but who cares what the constitutions says right? We only use that document to justify everything when it is in our best interest. Obama is also spending us into oblivion. What is the difference between Obama and Bush? I don't see any.

I agree !!! whatever happened to the constitution? The defile it daily now. Obama and bush are both owned by the same group of Bankers as all of the politicians have been for the last hundred years. Constitution doesnt mean shit when the supreme court wont hear cases and assert their authority. Fing pussies on the court, I am starting to beleive they are all owned also.