Besides the obvious problem of it being morally wrong, the population would decrease 90% every generation, not just once. Further thought would reveal that you would have a LOT of old people and no one to care for them. In a country where there are 200 million people retiring and 20 million current workers, I can only assume it would suck. Part of the reason our country isn't completely dead yet is because we set it up like a pyramid scheme.
Obama's Socialist Tax Reform
- Thread starter DrFever
- Start date
When the Government is selling things, that means it has to be manufacturing them. So instead of raising taxes when it needs more money, it would just lower pay to increase its profits. Same thing.
I will never understand why people think that society is more important than the individual. If the government said "Hey, you can have x amount of acres on this planet we found and you don't have to be a part of society anymore", Id go. My personal freedom as an individual is more important to me than luxuries afforded to me by society. Do we consider ourselves better than the nomadic tribes and family units that were around before governments? Does your average western citizen seem happier than the average Indian or tribal person in S America did? The worst part is in the West, you can't leave, there is nowhere to go.
The income tax % might be higher, but if you pay 15% and make 20k, its not really 15% of 20k. they give you 10k for personal exemption, and then if you have kids or anything you get more than you payed in. The rich get things like this too, just not on the same scale and %. The rich pay a much higher %.
Those people you know who don't have enough food. Those same individuals do things that cost money and don't benefit themselves or anyone else. Do they smoke marijuana, drink alcohol, cigarettes, gamble, have cable? The only time I see people on the side of the road without a home it is because they have serious mental problems, they gave up on themselves, or they are drug addicts. Do I feel pity for them? Yes. Do I feel that I should give them things to make their lives easier? Yes. Do I feel that the government should take things from me to make their lives easier, No.
Charity to me is a very noble thing. When I see someone down, I want to help them. However, that is not where my taxes go when I pay them. A lot of it just gets pissed away in the wind. I don't think giving people mortgages and $5k refund checks when they haven't payed taxes is charity. Especially when a vast amount of that EIC goes to buying TVs, Cars, and vacations. We should not be subsidizing peoples buying habits.
When I was younger, and not as prosperous, I worked doing a certain job and there was this old man that worked with me. 50 or so. He was from Louisiana and he was slightly mentally retarded(like the guy from Waterboy almost). Great guy, we worked together for a couple years, became friends. He had been homeless, he had no family, and he was just off. Well, one day he didn't show up for work. He had been hit by a car riding his bike to work. I was the only real friend he had and so the police contacted me and told me basically he was dead and 'not to bother sending flowers'. The cop said he had seen Roger before they came to get him and his brains were leaking out of his nose. Well, that was really hard on me. The next day the hospital called, I was listed as his next of kin, and told me he woke up. I immediately went to see him and he was only a little bit more reduced mentally, but physically he was pretty much done for. They put him in what I would consider a nut house(nursing home). One time while visiting him I witnessed his room mate taking a shit in the middle of the bed. I told him "Get whatever you want, we are leaving" They gave me a little flak, but I left with him that day. I took care of him for the next 4 years, I got his teeth fixed, I took him to doctors appointments, I got him disability. I took care of him and it was one of the good things Ive done in my life. I don't call it selfless, because I got something out of it. I got my friend back, I got a room mate, and I got a feeling inside for doing something that was right. Eventually, he got some of his facilities back and I convinced the people at disability to let him be in charge of himself. He now takes care of himself with little help. I never regret the time and effort I put into him, to make him a better person and self reliant.
Also, I saw that cop a few days later and he actually tried to talk to me. It took a few people to keep me off of him. I really wanted to hurt him.
DrFever
New Member
thats the problem your not selling anything usa has sold all there manufacturing abilities
With America's ability to actually produce products that can compete on the open world market in decline, it's no wonder that the balance of trade is the problem it is. Nobody buys our export products because we just don't make that many any more, and like or not, we have to buy our appliances from the people who make them, which are NOT Americans. (When Ampex invented the VCR, they didn't even bother trying to find an American company to make it, they immediately sold the rights to Japan). So, what do all these countries on the plus side of the trade imbalance do with their surplus billions? Well, they have been loaning it right back to us! Our government engages in a practice politely called "deficit spending". Other terms which would aptly describe the practice include "counterfeiting" and "check kiting", but it all comes down to the same thing; spending money one does not actually have.
A while back i herd obama talkin about investing in the electronic end to get usa back on track good luck on that i remember when i was young about silicone valley is there still such a place
IMO its hard to compete with japan there cost of making some computor chip prob is 1/4 of the price of a american made one
but Stop for one second your pc your on was made in japan not america thats your problem
i'm sure if a american company made a computor price would be 2700.00 for the same pc in japan you pay 600.00 or 700.00
Ernst
Well-Known Member
I suppose there will be profits from some things... That in turn would go to the care of society.
Business would still be around. It's just that at some point private wealth is more than one person needs. So for one to have so much is considered hoarding.
The best reason to consider society over individual, planet over country is because the Earth is a system we are a part of. It's just the way it is.
None of us are separate.
As I am suggesting we have dulled our ability to imagine something better.
canndo
Well-Known Member
Those least in need of defense, least in need of "fairness" and least in need of support from the middle class are the rich. Yet I constantly find that the right feels the urge to defend just those people, most often to the exclusion of those most in need of defense and fairness... the poor. I hear the argument that it is "the rich" who "give" us jobs and know that the speaker fails to understand that it is not the rich who create ALL of the wealth in this country but the worker. The rich have a simple bargain, they provide an atmosphere for workers to create wealth and they (rightfully) take a piece of what the workers have created for their having provided that atmosphere. But, we owe the rich nothing more than an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. We do not owe them fairness, we do not owe them equity. They make use of the infrastructure and education system in this country more than we who are not rich do and as such they should pay their way.
Now finally, in the last 20 years or so, workers in this country have managed to double their productivity - it matters not how they have done so, it only matters that they have. In the last 20 years, workers real wage has gone up very little if at all and certainly has not doubled. Where have the results of these worker's increased productivity gone? To the rich. Why? why do they deserve the fruits of the workers new improved labor while the worker who has increased his own productivity gets nothing at all for that increase?
Lest anyone think I am a communist because I am talking about workers and labor, I have started 4 moderately successful businesses and am working on a 5th. I am no communist, I am no socialist. What I understand is that we are no longer in a capitalist society, we are in a consumerist society and therein lies all the difference.
Now finally, in the last 20 years or so, workers in this country have managed to double their productivity - it matters not how they have done so, it only matters that they have. In the last 20 years, workers real wage has gone up very little if at all and certainly has not doubled. Where have the results of these worker's increased productivity gone? To the rich. Why? why do they deserve the fruits of the workers new improved labor while the worker who has increased his own productivity gets nothing at all for that increase?
Lest anyone think I am a communist because I am talking about workers and labor, I have started 4 moderately successful businesses and am working on a 5th. I am no communist, I am no socialist. What I understand is that we are no longer in a capitalist society, we are in a consumerist society and therein lies all the difference.
canndo
Well-Known Member
Fascinating. You mention the individual as being more important than society yet you describe a social situation that affords you the oportunity to be an individual.
It was the "government" who found this planet, It is the government that is offering you the chance to have x number of acres and it is the government that provides you with a method of reaching this planet. The government, which is a representation of society. So it is society that you think is less important than the individual that affords you the means to BE an individual.
Charlie Ventura
Active Member
A thing to research is the reason why the "compassionate" Progressives contribute FAR less to charity than
"greedy, profit motivated" Conservatives do. Its fact. Look it up.
"greedy, profit motivated" Conservatives do. Its fact. Look it up.
The average Japanese income isn't that much lower than the USA. Any trade deficit we get from them is simply because we don't make anything. Japan isn't a 3rd world country - it is no different than European countries.
undertheice
Well-Known Member
could it be that those oh so compassionate statists want government to do that job for them? just as they seem to feel it is government's duty to take care of the sheep from cradle to grave, to ration the amount of wealth each of us should possess and to punish those who would dare to stand against their creed of mediocrity. it would seem that they are more than willing to relinquish control of their destinies in order to remake the world into some illusory version of their own utopian wet dream and feel that everyone else should be compelled to do the same, but they are unable to take that first step, giving of themselves, without being forced to. there is always someone else who has more to give and should be forced to pony up before them.
i'm sure that there will be any number of these fine upstanding folks coming on to regale you with their feats of charity, as if these anecdotes will somehow counteract the fact that the majority of their left wing peers keep their wallets suspiciously close. you'll also hear from that contingent that will insist that conservatives control all the wealth and have the disposable income to spare. knowing plenty of relatively poor conservatives who are as stereotypically charitable as their more well to do compatriots, this argument falls flat before it even starts. you'll then be faced with those who insist on "proof", even though it has been posted a thousand times before. if you bother to provide any studies or polls, you'll find your sources attacked as biased or downright falsified. those few rabid liberals with more than two brain cells to rub together will simply keep their traps shut and hope that no one notices just how stingy the left is, as it stands there on the moral high ground.
the point is that the subject is a glaring embarrassment to the left. that they demand more of others than they themselves are willing to give shows how shallow their compassion really is. in fact, it isn't compassion at all. it is only a desire to bring down and control those who refuse to toe the liberal line. it can't be denied that there are those few who honestly believe the tripe they peddle, that the world would be a better place if we were all lobotomized and led the shallow life of the herd, and these are the ones to be pitied. they may even be right, but most humans simply don't possess the lack of imagination necessary to be satisfied with the life of a mindless drone. we fight against authority and, once our own needs are met, rebel against the constraints of the statist model. it is in the nature of humanity to grow our sphere of influence and to control the world around us with the tools at our command. those with conscience are willing to give back once they have met with some success. those without are only interested in the control.
Spoken like a true lefty.
I own part of the government, I pay for part of it. I just want my piece of it back so I can be myself somewhere without the government. I don't want to be a stock holder in it anymore. Maybe you would rather I take up arms and go take my piece back?
londonfog
Well-Known Member
Go handle your business..right now you sounding like an internet gangster...
If you say so. My point was there are few options for leaving society. I can't even buy 100 acres and just live on it, even if I never left it, because the government won't accept that. They would eventually sell my land for back taxes and take my stuff. I wasn't threatening to go on a killing spree or anything of the like, just pointing out that without that very extreme and unlikely to succeed action there is no change to be free in the world, since society won't let people go. Even if you own you land outright, and you don't want to be part of it anymore, you still cannot escape it.
Luger187
Well-Known Member
so we shouldnt collect any taxes because its the peoples money?
im sick of people thinking the rich shouldnt be taxed more. are you fucking kidding me?! 3% is NOT going to make a difference to someone with 50 million dollars. but it most definitely will make a difference to the thousands of homeless people that money could feed, or homeless mothers it could house, or even fixing your broken leg when you cant afford health insurance.
on the other hand, if you just tax the lower income community, what happens? you end up hurting the people financially(since they dont have much to begin with). plus, in order to collect the same amount of revenue, you have to collect those taxes from A LOT more people, as opposed to just one rich millionaire.
we have a revenue problem. we must fix it. those are basically the two options. choose which one you want
btw... i totally believe we must also stop spending the rediculous amount of money we spend. but thats another story
DrFever
New Member
I don’t know about you, but I ask myself “Why do I pay so much in taxes?” all of the time. Think about it. Depending on where you live, you could potentially be paying tax on your income to the federal government (IRS), the state government for the state in which you live (there are some states that don’t assess income taxes), and a local tax if the city or township you live in assesses a tax for living there (not just New York City).
Now add in payroll taxes. In addition to your federal and state (and sometimes local) withholdings, most of you pay into Social Security (teachers usually have their own retirement plans they pay into) and Medicare. If you’re lucky enough to own your own business, you pay in the employees’ portion of Social Security and Medicare, as well as the employer’s matching portion,
If you don’t own a business, most of us don’t even realize our employers are taxed on their employees. Basically, those entrepreneurs and business owners are taxed just for having employees. We just accept what our paycheck says and we bring home whatever we can from our jobs. We usually don’t think about the impact on our employers.
What about sales tax? Most of us (again, not all) pay sales tax on goods and some services that we purchase. Do you eat out at a restaurant? Have you ever noticed the tax on the bottom of bill? Or what about buying a new pair of shoes? Again, usually you pay sales tax on those shoes. I could go on and on for quite some time. I’ve only listed the bigger tax items that most people are aware they pay.
The truth of the matter is, however, most of us don’t really know why or how these taxes work.I suggest that if we, as a society, started educating ourselves on how and why taxes exist, we could empower ourselves to educate our children and families on the role taxes play in our life today. Not only the role taxes play in your annual or monthly income and our monthly budgets, but how those taxes translate to how our government works.
Once we educate ourselves, we can then demand changes to the status quo. We could start making changes to school curriculum, so our children have a fighting chance of avoiding what we have gotten ourselves into as a society. We can and should hold our Congresspeople accountable for our tax money. The bottom line is that government, whether it is federal, state, or local, is not in the business of generating revenue.
Think about it. What product or service do they produce? They are not a money making business. They are a money taking business. So if they are taking your money, and boy are the ever, don’t you want to know why they assess taxes, how they assess taxes, and what they spend your tax money on?
This series of articles will focus on income taxes. When did we start to pay income taxes (not as early as you think)? Why did we start to pay income taxes? How does Congress come up with the tax law? How does Congress spend our tax money? Why do we have annual deficits and aggregate debt as a country when the government is collecting our tax dollars throughout the year?
The sooner we begin to educate ourselves about how our taxes work, the sooner we can empower ourselves and our children to take control of our own financial reality and our financial future. Financial freedom truly is the key to most other freedoms we hold so dearly, and we hold the key to that freedom.
Now add in payroll taxes. In addition to your federal and state (and sometimes local) withholdings, most of you pay into Social Security (teachers usually have their own retirement plans they pay into) and Medicare. If you’re lucky enough to own your own business, you pay in the employees’ portion of Social Security and Medicare, as well as the employer’s matching portion,
If you don’t own a business, most of us don’t even realize our employers are taxed on their employees. Basically, those entrepreneurs and business owners are taxed just for having employees. We just accept what our paycheck says and we bring home whatever we can from our jobs. We usually don’t think about the impact on our employers.
What about sales tax? Most of us (again, not all) pay sales tax on goods and some services that we purchase. Do you eat out at a restaurant? Have you ever noticed the tax on the bottom of bill? Or what about buying a new pair of shoes? Again, usually you pay sales tax on those shoes. I could go on and on for quite some time. I’ve only listed the bigger tax items that most people are aware they pay.
The truth of the matter is, however, most of us don’t really know why or how these taxes work.I suggest that if we, as a society, started educating ourselves on how and why taxes exist, we could empower ourselves to educate our children and families on the role taxes play in our life today. Not only the role taxes play in your annual or monthly income and our monthly budgets, but how those taxes translate to how our government works.
Once we educate ourselves, we can then demand changes to the status quo. We could start making changes to school curriculum, so our children have a fighting chance of avoiding what we have gotten ourselves into as a society. We can and should hold our Congresspeople accountable for our tax money. The bottom line is that government, whether it is federal, state, or local, is not in the business of generating revenue.
Think about it. What product or service do they produce? They are not a money making business. They are a money taking business. So if they are taking your money, and boy are the ever, don’t you want to know why they assess taxes, how they assess taxes, and what they spend your tax money on?
This series of articles will focus on income taxes. When did we start to pay income taxes (not as early as you think)? Why did we start to pay income taxes? How does Congress come up with the tax law? How does Congress spend our tax money? Why do we have annual deficits and aggregate debt as a country when the government is collecting our tax dollars throughout the year?
The sooner we begin to educate ourselves about how our taxes work, the sooner we can empower ourselves and our children to take control of our own financial reality and our financial future. Financial freedom truly is the key to most other freedoms we hold so dearly, and we hold the key to that freedom.
canndo
Well-Known Member
correct, or one might say, spoken like a true Christian. I notice that you don't describe for me where that productivity went Carthoris - where'd it go man?
canndo
Well-Known Member
Do as you wish, that is not my place to decide. I merely pointed out the disparity in your statement. You do own a part of the government, but so do I and so does everyone else who pays into the collective in money or labor or time. We cannot all recover our pieces, some take more, some take less. Some abuse the system, some ignore it. That is the way it is and the sooner we accept that the sooner we become more comfortable with ourselves and our government.
MuyLocoNC
Well-Known Member
Of course we need to collect taxes, but the current system has become ridiculous. And it's NOT just 3% when you add up ALL the taxes most people are hit with, think about what you actually pay in taxes.
Mine is something like this:
Federal = 25%
State = 9%
Sales Tax = 7.75%
Home Property Tax = works out to about 5.5% of our annual income
Vehicle Property Tax = works out to about 2% of our annual income
So we're just shy of 50% and we haven't even begun yet (we have a household income of just under 100k , living in rural NC)
Now the fun part. Embedded taxes.
Gasoline taxes, cellphone taxes, cable/satellite taxes, internet service taxes, electricity taxes, water taxes, etc...etc
Not to mention the embedded taxes that jack the price of EVERYTHING you buy up during the manufacturing process. Don't even get me started on the VAT tax they want, that will be the doom of us all. I have no doubt that I'm paying close to 60% of my income in taxes, and I'm nowhere near $250k.
You don't think this is maniacal? Face it, the ENTIRE problem is spending, entitlements and the SUICIDAL progressive agenda that has been rammed through for the last 80 years.
mame
Well-Known Member
Google had an effective tax rate of ~3% this year. GE, due to almost 4 billion in tax cuts, payed close to 17%.
So how is it fair that you are being taxed "just shy of 50%" of your earnings and multi billion dollar companies are not? tbh I think your assessment is off; I dont pay anywhere close to 50% of my income to taxes, closer to 35% overall I'd guess. I'll check out my records.
So how is it fair that you are being taxed "just shy of 50%" of your earnings and multi billion dollar companies are not? tbh I think your assessment is off; I dont pay anywhere close to 50% of my income to taxes, closer to 35% overall I'd guess. I'll check out my records.