The Truth About Ron Paul

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Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
The markets aren't perfect, sorry.
Nobody ever said the markets are perfect but they do work, if given the chance. So you would not settle for anything unless it's perfect? Sorry, that's just a bit unrealistic.

Not really. Using a cost/benefit analysis it's pretty easy to see, for example, that legalizing Marijuana would be worth doing because the benefits outweigh the costs to society... With Heroin it's easy to see that the costs likely outwiegh the benefits by far and so it makes sense to ban the substance and others like it.
Yeah, it is hypocritical. You're making the assumption that heroin use would be a cost. You have to think in Constitutional terms. I'm all for anyone being allowed to put whatever substance they want into their own bodies (think of it like abortion rights), just don't ask me to pay taxes to treat or support that person. Thinking in your terms then we should prohibit alcohol, tobacco, fatty foods and vehicles that go faster than 55 mph.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Keynesians want austerity and thats what they are getting. What you are taught in school is FALSE, and you will be proved wrong on every issue very shortly.
Where is this Keynesian austerity? Oh, and I'll be waiting anxiously for the time I'm proven wrong(I am constantly asking for proof of this on these boards after all?).

Bernanke knew all about a bubble huh? Watch him tell you there is no bubble, then come back and tell me he knew.
[/video]
Hm, maybe not Bernanke - it seems you got me there (cant watch video at work, I'll take you for your word). Greenspan's Fed knew about the housing bubble at least as early as 2005 and Krugman was alluding to disaster in his column here in 06 after harping for a couple years on his blog (it seems the nytimes search function only goes back 5 years of his blog posts... it doesn't really matter though lots of bloggers had been talking about the housing bubble for a couple years prior to the Fed's '05 acknowledgement of a bubble).

Yeah because doing things the way the US Constitution intended would be highly wrong and just plain dumb, running things illegally and unconstitutionally is way better isn't it Mame?
What do you mean by this, dont be vague. Ron Paul says "oh we'll follow the constitution!" but isn't every policymaker bound to the rules of the constitution? Isn't that why we have a SCOTUS? Any challenges to any law can be made and if the law is unconstitutional it'll likely be struck down... Checks and balances. Happens all the time with issues like seperation of church and state, etc. We constantly see shit like this on the news. Just seems like a lot of the "Hey! That's unconstitutional!" arguments are just idealogically motivated BS. I mean, some people on these boards will argue that green shit is unconstitutional if it came out of a liberal's ass. I look to the HC reform individual mandate as an example, the vast majority of constitutional experts say the law is constitutional, but you nonetheless have a politization of the issue. The SCOTUS will eventually see a HC reform case, and when they do and it "passes the test" (with a conservative majority) - will people still argue it's unconstitutional? Probably. Doesn't mean they're right though (this applies to the abortion rights debate as well).
just don't ask me to pay taxes to treat or support that person.
The social costs would be so great that you would end up doing this, whether directly or indirectly. Whether it be taxes for more treatment programs and educational programs to deal with possible increases and/or fluctuations in use (say one generation is fine but the next generation heroin is in "style" and use rates go up)...

It's cheaper to keep heroin, meth, etc illegal. It's not the same for Marijuana because stoners aren't fucking junkies. We aren't a detriment to society, most often we're nonviolent offenders and considering how many people smoke in the U.S. alone, I'd say it's safe to say most of us work for a living (or are at least self sufficient via the sale of marijuana, which is work ;)). Junkies are often violent, most of the time they're theives, they dont consistently work or care for their children, they're leeches... Many of them sucking up as much tax dollars as they can to support their habit. Why would we want to say this is okay? Sure, it sounds nice to let everyone be big kids and do as they please - but in reality it just doesn't work.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
The social costs would be so great that you would end up doing this, whether directly or indirectly. Whether it be taxes for more treatment programs and educational programs to deal with possible increases and/or fluctuations in use (say one generation is fine but the next generation heroin is in "style" and use rates go up)...

It's cheaper to keep heroin, meth, etc illegal. It's not the same for Marijuana because stoners aren't fucking junkies. We aren't a detriment to society, most often we're nonviolent offenders and considering how many people smoke in the U.S. alone, I'd say it's safe to say most of us work for a living (or are at least self sufficient via the sale of marijuana, which is work ;)). Junkies are often violent, most of the time they're theives, they dont consistently work or care for their children, they're leeches... Many of them sucking up as much tax dollars as they can to support their habit. Why would we want to say this is okay? Sure, it sounds nice to let everyone be big kids and do as they please - but in reality it just doesn't work.
There you go making assumptions again. First of all, the cost of continuing the "War on Drugs" is far more than what education and treatment would cost. Second, tax the sale of drugs to use for education and treatment. Third, addicts are not always violent thieves. I have known many that hold regular, high-paying jobs.
These scare tactics may work on the uninformed but all you are doing is deflecting the the real issue... individual liberty, oh yeah and CHOICE!!!
 

budlover13

King Tut
There you go making assumptions again. First of all, the cost of continuing the "War on Drugs" is far more than what education and treatment would cost. Second, tax the sale of drugs to use for education and treatment. Third, addicts are not always violent thieves. I have known many that hold regular, high-paying jobs.
These scare tactics may work on the uninformed but all you are doing is deflecting the the real issue... individual liberty, oh yeah and CHOICE!!!
Alcoholics come to mind although i would guess their job-retention rate is lower than a pot head's.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
There you go making assumptions again. First of all, the cost of continuing the "War on Drugs" is far more than what education and treatment would cost. Second, tax the sale of drugs to use for education and treatment. Third, addicts are not always violent thieves. I have known many that hold regular, high-paying jobs.
These scare tactics may work on the uninformed but all you are doing is deflecting the the real issue... individual liberty, oh yeah and CHOICE!!!
The U.S. spends ~5 billion on treatment and education each year and ~10 billion on enforcement(Obama proposed a 15.5 billion dollar budget for this year, 2010 was a total of $15 billion). Considering that a third of all Americans smoked marijuana within a month of taking a survey in 2001(whitehouse.gov recent-ish data on there) and only 4 percent of Americans reported smoking crack/cocaine in the same survey it seems fair to say a lot of the money spent on enforcement(and I guess to a lesser extent treatment...? lol) is spent on marijuana smokers.

So lets be fairly rosy here and say the total non-marijuana related yearly budget for the war on drugs is 10 billion a year (a third of the total costs removed)... that still seems like a lot.

But consider this, since their peak in 1979 non-marijuana drug use, although flucating throughout history, is actually down. Crack/cocain use at 4% in 2001 for example, is far below the 1979 peak of 15%... when the "war on drugs" started. This obviously isn't true for Marijuana, as use has flucuated throughout the years but there is no clear downward trend like in the case of Cocaine. So, despite the fact the marijuana prohibition has obviously failed... The broader war on drugs via enforcement, education and treatment has been fairly successful in preventing use of drugs like crack/cocaine.

Also, the economic costs to society from illicit drug use is estimated to have been $180.8 billion in 2002, despite the successes in terms of reduced use in the two decades of the war on drugs... How big do you think this number would be if the war on drugs never took place? With costs to society approaching $193 billion for tobacco, and $235 billion for alcohol - both legal substances(and with much higher usage rates than cocaine) - I think it's fair to say that the $180 billion number could easily be twice as large... So being cautious with those numbers(I believe the figure could have been at least double, possibly triple assuming non-marijuana drug use has generally followed the same trend as cocaine, downwards) and claiming $150-200 billion in net saved economic activity(compared to without the funding for the war on drugs) doesn't sound bad at all when the cost to the taxpayers (excluding marijuana) would be a mere $10 billion.

But to get to what your main argument is, that we're deprived of the choice... Sure, you got me. You dont get a choice in the matter. You know why? Because we, as a society, have decided that the costs to society outweigh the individual "liberty" that you would otherwise be afforded. If you don't like it, you can try and change the law (ala the marijuana movement)... But to argue that cocaine is in the wrong camp (illegal drug) like marijuana is in the wrong camp is going to be much more difficult - and ultimately, you'll likely fail in your campaign.

 

budlover13

King Tut
The U.S. spends ~5 billion on treatment and education each year and ~10 billion on enforcement(Obama proposed a 15.5 billion dollar budget for this year, 2010 was a total of $15 billion). Considering that a third of all Americans smoked marijuana within a month of taking a survey in 2001(whitehouse.gov recent-ish data on there) and only 4 percent of Americans reported smoking crack/cocaine in the same survey it seems fair to say a lot of the money spent on enforcement(and I guess to a lesser extent treatment...? lol) is spent on marijuana smokers.

So lets be fairly rosy here and say the total non-marijuana related yearly budget for the war on drugs is 10 billion a year (a third of the total costs removed)... that still seems like a lot.

But consider this, since their peak in 1979 non-marijuana drug use, although flucating throughout history, is actually down. Crack/cocain use at 4% in 2001 for example, is far below the 1979 peak of 15%... when the "war on drugs" started. This obviously isn't true for Marijuana, as use has flucuated throughout the years but there is no clear downward trend like in the case of Cocaine. So, despite the fact the marijuana prohibition has obviously failed... The broader war on drugs via enforcement, education and treatment has been fairly successful in preventing use of drugs like crack/cocaine.

Also, the economic costs to society from illicit drug use is estimated to have been $180.8 billion in 2002, despite the successes in terms of reduced use in the two decades of the war on drugs... How big do you think this number would be if the war on drugs never took place? With costs to society approaching $193 billion for tobacco, and $235 billion for alcohol - both legal substances(and with much higher usage rates than cocaine) - I think it's fair to say that the $180 billion number could easily be twice as large... So being cautious with those numbers(I believe the figure could have been at least double, possibly triple assuming non-marijuana drug use has generally followed the same trend as cocaine, downwards) and claiming $150-200 billion in net saved economic activity(compared to without the funding for the war on drugs) doesn't sound bad at all when the cost to the taxpayers (excluding marijuana) would be a mere $10 billion.

But to get to what your main argument is, that we're deprived of the choice... Sure, you got me. You dont get a choice in the matter. You know why? Because we, as a society, have decided that the costs to society outweigh the individual "liberty" that you would otherwise be afforded. If you don't like it, you can try and change the law (ala the marijuana movement)... But to argue that cocaine is in the wrong camp (illegal drug) like marijuana is in the wrong camp is going to be much more difficult - and ultimately, you'll likely fail in your campaign.

ALL medicines are poison. Titration and self-control is the key. Can't be legislated imho.
 

deprave

New Member
Mame I have much respect for your intellect and always appreciate your intelligent well thought out post but just want to say please read Ron Pauls book and see how your thoughts change after that, I have pointed out in this thread the psy-op the media has on Ron Paul. Please take into consideration what I have said when you research more in to Ron Paul, I can't convince you otherwise I know, but trust I have been researching this topic non-stop for awhile now and Ron Paul is basically right about everything in my belief, I was very skeptical about Ron Paul for a long time but after reading his books and studying his speeches it became more apparent to me the truth behind Ron Paul.

In my economics class we had to do a 10 page research paper and we had to conclude who was responsible for the crisis, I concluded as well as most of my class mates that the FED and the Lenders both shared equal blame, this is what turned me on to Ron Pauls books, everyone started to see in 2009 that everything Ron Paul had said about the housing bubble and the FED was correct, Ron Paul not only predicted this years in advance but subsequently he exposed the criminal nature of the FED to the world. Ron Paul is no moron and he's definitely not off his rocker. Please view the second video of the first post, this explains the sentiment well, after the housing bubble many people became turned on to Ron Paul because they realized everything he has been saying all these years has been dead on.
 

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman

Well-Known Member
Just my views on politics

i consider myself a progressive, if that word has any meaning anymore and i hope it still does. As for drug legal status, i believe drugs should be made legal, all of them, but education about drugs should begin at a young age, and while the status may remain legal, they need to be regulated and watch by the government to be sure some fool isnt selling deadly chemicals or products to ANYONE willing or not. we need a strong scientific basis for what drugs are considered medical, and that may require a complete paradigm shift in comparison to our current state. if you are educated, and are smart enough and learned that heroin is harmful and highly addictive, and you still decide to use it, parents and protective measures must be available to prevent further harm. Ron Paul is an awful lot like most libertarians who think its a dog eat dog world, and i find that abhorrent. He paints himself to be a Social Darwinist of the highest pedigree and from my own personal bias against religious thinkers, knowing of his religious background, i cant help but think that has managed to deteriorate his morality for the citizens of the nation he loves. We cannot let businesses fail, because then families fail, we have to keep them from taking unnecessary risks at the cost of their employees or economies as a whole. we've seen what deregulation does to the stock market and banking firms. I will appear to be some kind of person who cant decide for himself, but i believe we have a constitution that allows us to be free, and still have the support of the government for those who aren't so fortunate. criminals are not drug abusers, they are politicians and business who gamble on the future others, and profit with our losses. i think the entire military industrial complex needs a revision and should be dismantled in its current form. I like the idea of a Philosopher king(intelligent government looking out for the people) over the idea of social Darwinism and rampant free market.
 

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman

Well-Known Member
whats that supposed to mean?


meaning, he understands what is going on an economic level, but his conclusion to the problem is a mess. relies on hard working Americans breaking their backs for the american dream, and those who failed and drifted to the way side deserved it for not being up to snuff, literally breaking their backs.... just kidding.

 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
Like I mentioned in an earlier post about the bailouts. If we had let GM and all of the banks fail, and instead opted to use the bailout money for the citizens of this country, each person (rich, poor, employed or not) would receive over $29,000. With this money people would have gone spending it all on debts, and other purchases at which the people of America would have willfully chosen the product that they desired the most that likely was of best quality. Therefore, failing companies with bad products and unreasonable prices as well as being completely reliable would have failed whilst companies opposite of that would have absolutely flourished and would absolutely take the place of the bigger business. Saving a bad business is bad business no matter what way you spin it. And over regulation was the cause, stop being so ignorant and actually look at the facts of it.
 

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman

Well-Known Member
Like I mentioned in an earlier post about the bailouts. If we had let GM and all of the banks fail, and instead opted to use the bailout money for the citizens of this country, each person (rich, poor, employed or not) would receive over $29,000. With this money people would have gone spending it all on debts, and other purchases at which the people of America would have willfully chosen the product that they desired the most that likely was of best quality. Therefore, failing companies with bad products and unreasonable prices as well as being completely reliable would have failed whilst companies opposite of that would have absolutely flourished and would absolutely take the place of the bigger business. Saving a bad business is bad business no matter what way you spin it. And over regulation was the cause, stop being so ignorant and actually look at the facts of it.
under the supposition that the government would ever give out 29k to its citizens rather than keep its companies alive, if we let gm die, then odds are toyota would get that 29k and half of that cash then goes oversease to japan. i agree that over regulation can be harmful, but no regulation is not a better choice, if i was smart enough or decided to major in economics maybe i could come to an intelligent decision, but i stated my opinion so take it or leave it.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Just my views on politics

i consider myself a progressive, if that word has any meaning anymore and i hope it still does. As for drug legal status, i believe drugs should be made legal, all of them, but education about drugs should begin at a young age, and while the status may remain legal, they need to be regulated and watch by the government to be sure some fool isnt selling deadly chemicals or products to ANYONE willing or not. we need a strong scientific basis for what drugs are considered medical, and that may require a complete paradigm shift in comparison to our current state. if you are educated, and are smart enough and learned that heroin is harmful and highly addictive, and you still decide to use it, parents and protective measures must be available to prevent further harm. Ron Paul is an awful lot like most libertarians who think its a dog eat dog world, and i find that abhorrent. He paints himself to be a Social Darwinist of the highest pedigree and from my own personal bias against religious thinkers, knowing of his religious background, i cant help but think that has managed to deteriorate his morality for the citizens of the nation he loves. We cannot let businesses fail, because then families fail, we have to keep them from taking unnecessary risks at the cost of their employees or economies as a whole. we've seen what deregulation does to the stock market and banking firms. I will appear to be some kind of person who cant decide for himself, but i believe we have a constitution that allows us to be free, and still have the support of the government for those who aren't so fortunate. criminals are not drug abusers, they are politicians and business who gamble on the future others, and profit with our losses. i think the entire military industrial complex needs a revision and should be dismantled in its current form. I like the idea of a Philosopher king(intelligent government looking out for the people) over the idea of social Darwinism and rampant free market.
They were loans... Could you pay that back that 29 grand? not likely... Chrysler has already paid nearly all of their $10.5 billion debt... It was not free money.
 
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