The Truth About Ron Paul

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Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
The Republicans are not trying to kill Medicare.

If only! Were they to do that I might consider calling myself one again.

Allowing the states to be in charge of Medicare disbursements kills nothing.

No amount of Donk fantasies about evil Republicans pushing Grannie's wheelchair down the stairs is going to change that. :dunce:

What the R's are trying to do is salvage a mind-bogglingly expensive, Fascist boondoggle which never should have been created in the first place.

Health care is not a legitimate responsibility of the Federal government according to the Constitution.
 

Carne Seca

Well-Known Member
The huge boondoggle you are referring to is our defense spending. That is the hippo standing on the elephant standing on a blue whale in the room. We don't need that much defense. It is completely insane the amount we spend. Let's also talk about oil subsidies, corporate tax codes, insane tax breaks for the wealthy and lobbying. Healthcare is a human right and should be treated as such.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
The huge boondoggle you are referring to is our defense spending. That is the hippo standing on the elephant standing on a blue whale in the room. We don't need that much defense. It is completely insane the amount we spend. Let's also talk about oil subsidies, corporate tax codes, insane tax breaks for the wealthy and lobbying. Healthcare is a human right and should be treated as such.
I agree on defense. It should be cut. Our military should not be spread on bases all over the world. Just a few are adequate.

As long as we are talking about subsidies, let's talk about ALL of the subsidies while were at it. Sustainable energy (wind, solar, ethanol, etc.), farm subsidies; eliminate them all.

U.S. Corporate taxes are the highest on the entire motherfucking planet.

The wealthy already pay more than their fair share. How about asking the 47% of deadbeats who pay absolutely NO income taxes to chip in?

Just how do you expect to curtail lobbying without shredding the Constitution? I'm not defending lobbying. I simply want to know how you would go about it.

Health care most assuredly is NOT a human right.

L.O. FUCKING L.
 

deprave

New Member
If, Ron Paul = the Ryan budget plan, he may as well go home. Republicans that hinge their platform on the kill medicare bill are commiting political suicide, and thank God, most of them are. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see a mass exodus from the Ryan bill around May-June next year.The lesson: don't fuck with seniors, they vote. If Republicans can't see the public is just flat fed up with their libertarian Ideas, they are in for a real surprise at the polls come next november (2012). America is about US, all of us, not just the top 10%. The people are waking up to the selfish aspirations of republican politicians and their rich buddies, I think we'll see a real turnaround in 2012. Power to the people.
Ron Paul does not equal ryan budget plan, Ron says he has priorities and ending the war is the first priority for saving us from our economic problems the second one would be auditing the fed and stopping the corporate criminals that are supported by the FED.

Just wanna clear a few things up, people on here seem to think im conservative from pm's, Im actually pretty liberal especially on social issues, although I am a libertarian, I do support Ron Paul 100%, I was skeptical for 4 years of Ron Paul till I actually read his literature. Just putting that out there for my fellow liberals who are still afraid of Ron Paul, please guys give Ron Paul a second good look.

For one thing I do believe healthcare is a human right, still obamas healthcare is a failure as in its takes away liberty. Obama as President is an incredible disappointment...Not electing Ron Paul is a continuation of this impending doom lol
 

beardo

Well-Known Member
Ron Paul does not equal ryan budget plan, Ron says he has priorities and ending the war is the first priority for saving us from our economic problems the second one would be auditing the fed and stopping the corporate criminals that are supported by the FED.

Just wanna clear a few things up, people on here seem to think im conservative from pm's, Im actually pretty liberal especially on social issues, although I am a libertarian, I do support Ron Paul 100%, I was skeptical for 4 years of Ron Paul till I actually read his literature. Just putting that out there for my fellow liberals who are still afraid of Ron Paul, please guys give Ron Paul a second good look.

For one thing I do believe healthcare is a human right, still obamas healthcare is a failure as in its takes away liberty. Obama as President is an incredible disappointment...
I think Ron Pauls ideas are right on, but even if you disagree with some of them you have to admit that he is American and will do his best to give our country a better future. he will be unable to implement all of his ideas as president because he wouldn't have authority to do so as President so their is nothing to fear in him being elected but everything to gain. If you love your country elect Ron Paul.
 

deprave

New Member
New Ron Paul Interview Today - Talks about Ryan budget plan

[video=youtube;iy3WE8WkvDE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy3WE8WkvDE[/video]
 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare. Stopping our country from collapsing falls into that category.



Guess what? It's not 1776. Things change. These types of businesses that have the ability to crash our entire national economy didn't exist then. Time to stop pretending everything needs to stay exactly as it was in the 18th century.



So you're saying the government should never act in the interest of national security because it's a slippery slope to snatching up children off the streets? GTFO



Who's rights exactly? The rights of a company that has already gone bankrupt? You want to let that company fail our economy along with it, eliminating it from existence. You're talking about the rights of a business owner to crash the American economy. The ability to crash our economy is not an essential liberty.
You just assumed that the economy would collapse from a corporation failing. There is no proof to this, only economic ideology. Making economic assumptions should not be good enough to fall within the lines of the constitution. This is like being a police officer knowing that most marijuana grow houses are renters that don't cut their grass often enough, so because my suspect meets this criteria I deserve a warrant. Just for example, GM failing wouldn't mean a collapse of the car industry. We still have Ford, Toyota, Hyundai, and Nissan plants that manufacture cars in the US and hire American workers to do this. If our country really truly was dependent on one corporation in an industry we'd be violating the constitution anyways as this would fall into the category of a Monopoly.

As to your point of it not being 1776 anymore, your basically telling me that we shouldn't follow the constitution any more, because it is out of date.

“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” — James Madison in a letter to James Robertson

“[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.” — James Madison

“A wise and frugal government… shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” — Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

“I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country.” - Thomas Jefferson

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the Government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." - Again, Thomas Jefferson

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of the lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.” - James Madison

I have plenty more where that came from
 

deprave

New Member
not to but in on your lil dispute here guys but 1776 was not the constitution it was the declaration of independence just to clarify, however, the constitution is intended to be a living document in that it applies to all people of the past and present because it is about liberty of mankind , philosophically it could never be null and void as its not intended to be, but the government has fought its way around the constitution to infringe upon our rights since way back when, everytime you sign a peice of paper you have given away rights you didn't even know you gave away, each year more and more legistlation is passed that push the government more and more into our lives and drift more and more rapidly away from our founding fathers vision of America and even our own vision of America from just 15 years ago.
 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
not to but in on your lil dispute here guys but 1776 was not the constitution it was the declaration of independence just to clarify, however, the constitution is intended to be a living document in that it applies to all people of the past and present because it is about liberty of mankind , philosophically it could never be null and void as its not intended to be, but the government has fought its way around the constitution to infringe upon our rights since way back when, everytime you sign a peice of paper you have given away rights you didn't even know you gave away, each year more and more legistlation is passed that push the government more and more into our lives and drift more and more rapidly away from our founding fathers vision of America and even our own vision of America from just 15 years ago.
I stand corrected, although the year of the constitution doesn't change my arguments lol.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Health care most assuredly is NOT a human right.

L.O. FUCKING L.
While arguing whether or not Health care is a right is pointless, due to it being a question of idealogy... The argument for universal healthcare is actually quite strong.

There is an argument, actually quite popular on these forums, that life is unfair and that government has no business meddling in private affairs, etc.

While this is a coherent argument against universal healthcare, it is not one shared by most Americans. While many Americans scoff when they hear the term "Obamacare", facts are when asked about specific provisions of HC reform - Things like whether or not one should be denied insurance based on pre-existing conditions, or whether or not all people should have access to affordable healthcare... The people overwhelmingly support the idea of a universal healthcare system. They may not realize it(the partisan eye sees only what it wants to see after all), but it's true. So the argument that it's not governments business is a minority view.

As I've made clear in several threads I believe that a responsible society can set aside idealogy and balance authoritarian and libertarian views for the better of the nation as a whole... This is a case that most Americans believe that government should take action, just as I've argued that most Americans believe that government prohibition of crack/cocaine is necessary despite the undeniable fact that it denies liberty, not necessarily essential liberty... but liberty nonetheless. But my argument is not only a moral or populist one, there are economic incentives as well...

Consider this, we're as bad as 37th in the world in terms of overall healthcare quality. Nations with socialized insurance systems(the UK is the only nation with a socialized healthcare system, in which doctors are public employees) consistently deliver as good or better healthcare than America - and they do it cheaper and the bill is payed more equitably.

Overall, 20% of the population will account for 80% of medical costs. The sickest 1% needed, on average, more than $150,000 worth of medical care in 2010. Also, a large fraction (last I saw the number it was 15%) of the country has no insurance at all(and remember, when these people go to the emergency room YOU pay for it anyway). This creates an environment where the pool of insured are higher risk patients overall, because many people without insurance are young, etc. This obviously drives up costs, but less obvious is that life expectancy in the U.S. lags behind that of countries with universal care due to the lack of preventative care. In 2004, spending per person on healthcare per year was $6102... In Canada it was $3165, France was $3150, Germany at $3043 and Britain at $2508. Life expectancy in that same year in the U.S. was 77.5 years while life expectancy among the other four nations was 80.2, 79.6, 78.9 and 78.5 respectively.

So, nations with universal care have better coverage and they do it for a minimum savings of half the costs per person.

But that's not all! The original plan for Democrats was to allow the Bush tax cuts to expire (remember, there was a surplus when they were signed into law) and use that money to pay for HC subsidies for the individual mandate. Individuals would see no extra taxes than they would've under Clinton. So this wouldn't be costing the people much of anything overall and over time reduces the cost per person for healthcare anyway.

So you see, there is not only a strong moral argument for universal healthcare but a strong economic argument as well.

Besides, when compared to the rest of the world our new healthcare system is the most conservative of them all - everyone would still be buying health insurance from private companies (no public option). This is about as market freindly of an approach that's possible to achieve universal care - the only reason to be against it is if you dont believe in universal care... In which case, you are in the minority. Have fun spinning your wheels on the issue.
 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
No offense, mame, but you are the exact person that cannot handle statistics. You blindly follow them without questioning the variables, controls, etc. To simply say that an economic surplus during a Bush tax cut means that it was because of Bush's tax cut is completely ignorant to the millions of other variables involved in it. According to this website (http://hospitals.webometrics.info/top2000.asp) 33 of the top 50 hospitals in the world are in the United States (66%). You forget to mention that people from all over the world travel some of the worlds best clinics in the United States (Univ of Mich, John Hopkins, Mayo, etc). Looking at the top two countries listed by the UN as the longest life expectancy (Japan, has universal health care, and China, only just now adopting it and it's partial covering 70% of patients bills) you have to take into account the culture. If you ever watch videos of people in these nations you see a lot of people wearing face masks when their sick out of general courtesy for others, something not seen in America. In Switzerland (number 4, does have universal health care) I think you need to look partially into their drug policies. As far as how they treat drug addicts, they allow them to buy and use drugs under the supervisions of doctors and they are forced to use clean needles and dispose of them properly. This can affect life expectancy.

I'm not trying to argue whether we should have universal health care or not. I just don't like seeing statistics thrown in peoples faces without at least mentioning possible variables to each number. As Liberitarian as I am, I also believe that in order to protect the citizens right to a prosperous and free life, you must make quality health equally available to each citizen. I just have a problem with incorporating government bureaucracy into the health system. My view is one of the fundamental flaws of our health care system is nobody knows what a fair price for it really is. It's not like Mcdonalds where you can walk up look at a menu and see the price and compare it to BK. No one knows a cost until after they've been treated and there's really no barometer as to what is a fair price and what isn't. By the way, the whole law requiring every citizen to carry health insurance is an absolute bull shit attack on our civil rights.

I'm coming off as an arguer now aren't I? I'm done. The floor is yours : )
 

deprave

New Member
Im all for Universal Healthcare but Obama's plan fails on a lot more levels then you seem to think mame.

Universal Healthcare YES
Mandatory Healthcare NO

bureaucratic bullshit NO
backroom deals NO

What Obama-care got right = Pre-existing conditions, medicaid, age restrictions

What Obama-care got wrong = literally everything besides what I mentioned above.


Obamacare tramples on our liberty and freedom.
 

deprave

New Member
and just want to make sure you know, its not only mandatory in the sense that we have to buy healthcare, to put it sort of over dramatically: its mandatory injections and big pharma pills....A lot of entities are going to get very rich off this obamacare crap, we gave Nebraska millions of dollars and that's in plain view lol
 

deprave

New Member
its a little more than a series of 'compromises' as obama would have you believe, no its Americans being bought and sold to big pharma, he completely threw us under the bus here.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
While arguing whether or not Health care is a right is pointless, due to it being a question of idealogy... The argument for universal healthcare is actually quite strong.
I don't think it's a matter of ideology. It's a matter of what is authorized and what is not, by the Constitution.

There is an argument, actually quite popular on these forums, that life is unfair and that government has no business meddling in private affairs, etc.

While this is a coherent argument against universal healthcare, it is not one shared by most Americans. While many Americans scoff when they hear the term "Obamacare", facts are when asked about specific provisions of HC reform - Things like whether or not one should be denied insurance based on pre-existing conditions, or whether or not all people should have access to affordable healthcare... The people overwhelmingly support the idea of a universal healthcare system. They may not realize it(the partisan eye sees only what it wants to see after all), but it's true. So the argument that it's not governments business is a minority view.
Just because the majority want or believe something does not make it right. Remember, the majority banned alcohol some 90 years ago, only to repeal it, later.

As I've made clear in several threads I believe that a responsible society can set aside idealogy and balance authoritarian and libertarian views for the better of the nation as a whole... This is a case that most Americans believe that government should take action, just as I've argued that most Americans believe that government prohibition of crack/cocaine is necessary despite the undeniable fact that it denies liberty, not necessarily essential liberty... but liberty nonetheless. But my argument is not only a moral or populist one, there are economic incentives as well...
Liberty trumps everything. If the government had done their job according to the oath they take, we would be a happier, safer and more prosperous nation.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
No offense, mame, but you are the exact person that cannot handle statistics. You blindly follow them without questioning the variables, controls, etc. To simply say that an economic surplus during a Bush tax cut means that it was because of Bush's tax cut is completely ignorant to the millions of other variables involved in it. According to this website (http://hospitals.webometrics.info/top2000.asp) 33 of the top 50 hospitals in the world are in the United States (66%). You forget to mention that people from all over the world travel some of the worlds best clinics in the United States (Univ of Mich, John Hopkins, Mayo, etc). Looking at the top two countries listed by the UN as the longest life expectancy (Japan, has universal health care, and China, only just now adopting it and it's partial covering 70% of patients bills) you have to take into account the culture. If you ever watch videos of people in these nations you see a lot of people wearing face masks when their sick out of general courtesy for others, something not seen in America. In Switzerland (number 4, does have universal health care) I think you need to look partially into their drug policies. As far as how they treat drug addicts, they allow them to buy and use drugs under the supervisions of doctors and they are forced to use clean needles and dispose of them properly. This can affect life expectancy.

I'm not trying to argue whether we should have universal health care or not. I just don't like seeing statistics thrown in peoples faces without at least mentioning possible variables to each number. As Liberitarian as I am, I also believe that in order to protect the citizens right to a prosperous and free life, you must make quality health equally available to each citizen. I just have a problem with incorporating government bureaucracy into the health system. My view is one of the fundamental flaws of our health care system is nobody knows what a fair price for it really is. It's not like Mcdonalds where you can walk up look at a menu and see the price and compare it to BK. No one knows a cost until after they've been treated and there's really no barometer as to what is a fair price and what isn't. By the way, the whole law requiring every citizen to carry health insurance is an absolute bull shit attack on our civil rights.

I'm coming off as an arguer now aren't I? I'm done. The floor is yours : )
Tell me, how many hospitals total are there in the U.S.? Surely you dont think that those elite hospitals are serving all 300 million Americans do you? No. They serve the elite, the top few percent of the population... That's not an indicator of a strong healthcare system, as you're leaving out the other 290 million or so people with inferior healthcare. If overall, our nation is 37th in quality of healthcare despite the fact that we have those nice ass hospitals - doesn't that tell you how bad the rest of the system is? The truth is, those hospitals aren't going anywhere anyway - there will always be some rich guy who doesn't want to wait in line. Said person worked for the money they have and they can pay out of their own pocket for the amazing care they seek...

BTW, you talk of all the variables and how I "blindly" follow stats without considering said variables... But did you know that the biggest (after the fact that we dont have universal care) difference between U.S. health and Eurozone health is related to weight? "we eat more cheeseburgers!".... Facts are, studies have quantified the "fat effect" and it only accounts for ~$100 of the extra $3000 we pay per person. What is all this extra cost for? Certainly it has something to do with the fact that we do not have universal care? We are not that much different than other advanced nations(except that we are the ONLY advanced nation that doesn't offer a form of universal care)... We shouldn't be paying as much as we do.

Also, you hit the nail on the head when you said that one of the problems is that people dont know the fair price of healthcare, that's true... Most people dont. Did you know that the HC bill set up boards made up of doctors and others experienced in the HC industry to turn down unfair price increases? Wouldn't you rather these medical professionals (bureaucracy! oh noes!) be actively limiting prices than just leaving you in the dark? Or worse, send cost controls through the heavily policized congress? You'd end up with Republicans voting no on every price control, etc... in the name of the "free market" even though, as you said, no one knows what they should be paying... The truth is, on the right they dont want universal care. If you want universal care, it's going to have bureaucracy, it's going to have an individual mandate - there just is no other way.
Universal Healthcare YES
Mandatory Healthcare NO
Got another idea? Let's hear it. In brainstorming though, you'll likely realize that the individual mandate is necessary.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Mayo serves the Elite? My out of work neighbor went to mayo, he makes 9K a year. Elite indeed. I know several people who have gone to Johns Hopkins, I must run in some elite circles.

Dead people cost way less to take care of than the living.
 
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