DWC Root Slime Cure aka How to Breed Beneficial Microbes

[Bwana]

Thanks Professor! Truly a godsend for someone who has lost both of my crops to the white plague. I have read your tome twice, with the second time cut and pasting into a word document the salient points for me--it is 11 pages.

A question of yours had to do with why we don't use clear container to grow in. I say it has to do with light pruning, as in sunlight. If you look at the base stem of a mj plant, you see small bumps. I believe those to roots that were "pruned" by light.

I gather that you don't think vinegar should be used in Hydroponics to lower pH? Why is that? I currently do use it as such.
Sounds like you have used flood and drain as well as DWC and prefer DWC in spite of the advantages flood and drain to minimize the white slime issue. I currently run a 10 bucket recirculating DWC that I am planning to convert to and Ebb and Grow, flood and drain with What do you see the pros and cons of the two systems overall.

thanks for your thread--exceptionally well written, and a pleasure to read.

 

[Heisenberg]

Thanks for the compliments. Glad you are finding the information useful.

Indeed I have been using completely clear containers for vegging for many months now. No attempt to block light has been made at all, and things are normal. This might be a different story under the harsher HPS lights. I do block light in my bud containers, though not nearly 100%, But I get no sign of stunted root growth from CFL lights. What you are seeing could be air pruning.

Vinegar counts as an organic additive. That is really the only reason I discourage it. There is also the fact that it's rather poor at keeping ph down, but it works in a pinch IF your system is safeguarded by bennies. Really old vinegar can turn to 'mother of vinegar' and will certainly reek havoc on your roots.

DWC is, in my experience, faster and higher yielding than ebb and flow. It is also less prone to equipment failure, simply because there is less equipment. I stagger my harvest, so having individual buckets I can set to separate PPM rates is important. Ebb and flow however is better suited for medium and large grows. With DWC, the more buckets you have the bigger the hassle to maintain them. Anything above 8 buckets (once a week harvest) is very time consuming.

 

[aeviaanah]

Thanks for the compliments. Glad you are finding the information useful.

Indeed I have been using completely clear containers for vegging for many months now. No attempt to block light has been made at all, and things are normal. This might be a different story under the harsher HPS lights. I do block light in my bud containers, though not nearly 100%, But I get no sign of stunted root growth from CFL lights. What you are seeing could be air pruning.

Vinegar counts as an organic additive. That is really the only reason I discourage it. There is also the fact that it's rather poor at keeping ph down, but it works in a pinch IF your system is safeguarded by bennies. Really old vinegar can turn to 'mother of vinegar' and will certainly reek havoc on your roots.

DWC is, in my experience, faster and higher yielding than ebb and flow. It is also less prone to equipment failure, simply because there is less equipment. I stagger my harvest, so having individual buckets I can set to separate PPM rates is important. Ebb and flow however is better suited for medium and large grows. With DWC, the more buckets you have the bigger the hassle to maintain them. Anything above 8 buckets (once a week harvest) is very time consuming.

Hey man, hows it goin? Again great thread! I have my own vermicompost (compost with earth worms) it has been just over a year so im sure i have some good ewc back there. the only thing is i have seen lots of gnats and other insects crawling around in there. not sure how the retailers control this stuff but you think it will be ok to use this rather than buying some?
Sup heis...a few questions if you dont mind

i have a list of stuff that may be useful in the tea. Can you help direct me on which to use?
vital earths phc biopak
http://www.lebanonturf.com/products/items/2724629/index.aspx

age old soluble mycorrhizae
http://www.ageoldorganic.com/29/water-soluble-soil-and-root-inoculant-with-mycorrhizae/

humboldt nutrients myco maximum granular - (not sure if you can use a granular in hydro)
http://www.humboldtnutrients.com/root-stimulants/myco-madness/

roots organics by aurora
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/oregonism-xl.html

i also have zho (which youve already stated is fine to use) any suggestions or combinations of the above? i go to the nutrient expos and get tons of stuff like this lol....

also have you ever used dutch master gold range zone? i have a sample laying around and used it in my last dwc. had healthy roots all the way through but not sure if it was because of that stuff. should i add that since i have it?

do you ever use ascophyllum nodosum (seaweed extract) or molasses in your res?

you do recommend using this method in a flood and drain correct? thanks bro much appreciated!

 

[Heisenberg]

Hey man, hows it goin? Again great thread! I have my own vermicompost (compost with earth worms) it has been just over a year so im sure i have some good ewc back there. the only thing is i have seen lots of gnats and other insects crawling around in there. not sure how the retailers control this stuff but you think it will be ok to use this rather than buying some?
Sup heis...a few questions if you dont mind

i have a list of stuff that may be useful in the tea. Can you help direct me on which to use?
vital earths phc biopak
http://www.lebanonturf.com/products/items/2724629/index.aspx

age old soluble mycorrhizae
http://www.ageoldorganic.com/29/water-soluble-soil-and-root-inoculant-with-mycorrhizae/

humboldt nutrients myco maximum granular - (not sure if you can use a granular in hydro)
http://www.humboldtnutrients.com/root-stimulants/myco-madness/

roots organics by aurora
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/oregonism-xl.html

i also have zho (which youve already stated is fine to use) any suggestions or combinations of the above? i go to the nutrient expos and get tons of stuff like this lol....

also have you ever used dutch master gold range zone? i have a sample laying around and used it in my last dwc. had healthy roots all the way through but not sure if it was because of that stuff. should i add that since i have it?

do you ever use ascophyllum nodosum (seaweed extract) or molasses in your res?

you do recommend using this method in a flood and drain correct? thanks bro much appreciated!

I think your compost should be fine as long as it's not still composting. Active compost is likely to contain pathogens.

Vital Earth Biopak: A collection of bacillis bacteria, no fungi. This product is similar to aquashield. Has too many additives to be ideal, but is fine to use.

Age Old Myco: Just myco fungi and food, no bacteria, no trichoderma.

Myco Madness: Excellent product containing a diverse collection of bacteria and fungi, including trichoderma. Has a good track record for use in tea. I think the granular would be fine to use in the tea.

Oregonism XL: Decent collection of fungi and bacteria, including trichoderma. Contains yucca which is good for our tea because it helps to soften up fungi spores and prime them for germination.

The advantage of having different types of inoculates is being able to leave out trichoderma if you want. Trichoderma are fine to use all the time, always beneficial to the roots, but they are aggressive and will attack myco fungi, making it harder for the mycos to form a network. This is really no concern to us in the context of disease fighting, but if you currently are not fighting slime you could leave trichoderma out. If you do have slime problems, the trichoderma are a huge advantage.

Dutch Master's Zone is an excellent product and very safe to use, even in extremely aggressive doses. When I first got hit with slime I tried Zone, and it corrected the problem quickly and completely for two months. Then, for what ever reason, the slime came back. From that point on Zone did not even slow it down. I ordered a new bottle thinking my stuff just got old, but it didn't matter.

In any case Zone will easily kill beneficial microbes even at maintenance dosage. Do not use it unless you are committing to a sterile res. You can still use it for sterilizing equipment, trays, and walls.

I recommend avoiding any sort of additives designed to feed microbes directly to the res, including molasses. At best it is a redundant measure that risks triggering slime, puts more demand on dissolved oxygen, and pollutes the res. Your plant will feed the microbes it wants, and the rest will be replaced when you add more tea. You can play around with adding different foods to the tea, but remember we don't add so much food that the microbes explode and outstrip the dissolved oxygen.

I do recommend using the tea in a flood and drain. You should notice the plants uptaking more water during floods.

 

[aeviaanah]

I think your compost should be fine as long as it's not still composting. Active compost is likely to contain pathogens.

Vital Earth Biopak: A collection of bacillis bacteria, no fungi. This product is similar to aquashield. Has too many additives to be ideal, but is fine to use.

Age Old Myco: Just myco fungi and food, no bacteria, no trichoderma.

Myco Madness: Excellent product containing a diverse collection of bacteria and fungi, including trichoderma. Has a good track record for use in tea. I think the granular would be fine to use in the tea.

Oregonism XL: Decent collection of fungi and bacteria, including trichoderma. Contains yucca which is good for our tea because it helps to soften up fungi spores and prime them for germination.

The advantage of having different types of inoculates is being able to leave out trichoderma if you want. Trichoderma are fine to use all the time, always beneficial to the roots, but they are aggressive and will attack myco fungi, making it harder for the mycos to form a network. This is really no concern to us in the context of disease fighting, but if you currently are not fighting slime you could leave trichoderma out. If you do have slime problems, the trichoderma are a huge advantage.

Dutch Master's Zone is an excellent product and very safe to use, even in extremely aggressive doses. When I first got hit with slime I tried Zone, and it corrected the problem quickly and completely for two months. Then, for what ever reason, the slime came back. From that point on Zone did not even slow it down. I ordered a new bottle thinking my stuff just got old, but it didn't matter.

In any case Zone will easily kill beneficial microbes even at maintenance dosage. Do not use it unless you are committing to a sterile res. You can still use it for sterilizing equipment, trays, and walls.

I recommend avoiding any sort of additives designed to feed microbes directly to the res, including molasses. At best it is a redundant measure that risks triggering slime, puts more demand on dissolved oxygen, and pollutes the res. Your plant will feed the microbes it wants, and the rest will be replaced when you add more tea. You can play around with adding different foods to the tea, but remember we don't add so much food that the microbes explode and outstrip the dissolved oxygen.

I do recommend using the tea in a flood and drain. You should notice the plants uptaking more water during floods.

Hey man great response...thankyou. I will use your guidance in this tea. I got it brewing right now

 

[burrr]

I keep seeing Ancient Forest being referred to as earth worm castings.... my bag says humus from the forest floor, not worm castings. Is this the correct stuff?

 

[whodatnation]

I keep seeing Ancient Forest being referred to as earth worm castings.... my bag says humus from the forest floor, not worm castings. Is this the correct stuff?

yes thats the correct stuff I believe. It has ewc in it. Even some live worms! lol That is something I like about it... Hopefully they can take hold in when recycling soil

 

[Goldowitz]

I am still trying to get the water in my rez dialed in, but it is getting better. The rez I use for flowering plants was at 1400ppm before the tea and now 900-1000ppm seems to be what it wants.
The water in my mother rez was at 1100ppm before tea. I set it at 650ppm this last time and the Ph is still falling while the ppm goes up. Next time I will mix it up to 450-500ppm and see how that does, but that seems very low for big mother plants. I know the bennies in the tea make the plants use more water and need less nutrients, so do my numbers sound about right? The strain in question is WW.

Thanks again,
G

 

[Ben Hoff]

Heisenberg, i am battling the slime over here in the uk within my 4 tank rdwc system, approximately 300 litres volume plummed into a chiller as the loft gets very warm during daytime over here in the summer. I used vitalink biopac and atami atazyme after washing down roots, soaking in chloramine, h202 solution with a little bleach. Which i wish i had not done now, as they both contain enzymes....just read how enzymes accelerate the slime grotwh and the chiller was set at 19c, or 68f which is too low for the bennies to breed, checked today after 12 hours and true to your word, the dreaded smell is back and the ph is back to 8.5.slime is winning?. I have got some plagron worm castings and some endo, ecto myco and tricho plus on the way already to make my tea. I am going to use 15 litres of tea for 300 litres. Or 3 gallons to 60 gallons. .....i am going to clean down the system again wash the roots , spray and soak in chloramine, h2o2 and then rinse of in water again before planting back in to my system full of bennies, set it at 22c (72f)- no enzymes, no nutrient feed?......how long do u inoculate with bacteria in your experience?...when do you start to add base feeds back into the equation? Any advice would be gratefully received.

 

[mr.bond]

Hi Ben Hoff,

Sounds like you have the proper ingredients along the way, the tea should help you out tremendously. When you go to spray and soak the roots after the tea brew and system cleaning, I would say leave out the chloramine this time and just use H2O2 and water. Chloramine hangs around and does not dissipate which could be bad for the beneficial bacteria in the tea. The way in which I have used the tea is to just brew the tea, clean your system, and then mix up a fresh batch of nutrients and just add the tea in with it. Make sure you brew the tea for 48 hours. It is also helpful to pour some tea over the root crown of each plant to assist in the recovery process. The tea is pretty quick acting, and should kill the slime in no time, you'll likely see signs of recovery in as early as 24 hours. Your pH should become significantly more stable. If the slime is really bad then maybe start with 1/2-strength nutrients. After a few days you should hopefully notice some new white root growth, based on the stage of growth that you are in. After the initial inoculation of the system, add more tea about 3-4 days later, and another 3-4 days after that to ensure maximum diversity in the growth of the bennies and to help finish the battle against the slime. As Heisenberg stated recently, after some initial inoculations of the tea and/or recovery of a slime infestation, the roots become stronger and much less likely to allow the slime to return. I have noticed similar findings, impacted by the slime in veg and inoculated, but once into flower my plants were kept safe from the slime, even without the tea. Since you are in RDWC, I would imagine the recovery will be pretty quick.

Hope the slime battle turns out well, and I hope I was able to help you out. Feel free to stop by should you have any more questions.

Cheers,
Mr. Bond

 

[PakaloloHui]

I was reading through Ed Rosenthal's Marijuana Grower's Handbook, OFFICIAL COURSE BOOK OF OAKSTERDAM UNIVERSITY edition, and it said quote

"Chloramine can also be removed from water by adding a gram of Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) per 75 gallons (285l) of water. Adding ascorbic acid to the water is safe for both the plants and you."

Has anyone tried this and do you personally think that this would work Heisenburg.

Onee other note, I ran out of Koi food a few weeks back, and I have beenfeeding them Cheerios, it is a good food to feed them usually when the water starts to warm, but this is not the case. Since I have been feeding them the Cheerios, the water has gotten alot cleaner. I assume that it is from the wheat that it is made from??? I have added small bails of hay in the past or whatever product you add that when it breaks down in the water natural enzymes start to breakdown the sludge and clear the water. I wonder for those of you running hydro and are having some slime or root issues that if you add a cup of Cheerios to your rez. to float around that it might benefit your water and root sytems like it has my pond. I can see the roots now and they seem to be much cleaner as well in the pond, unless my koi are feasting upon them.

Just a random thought and something that I noticed happening to my pond water.

 

[Heisenberg]

I am still trying to get the water in my rez dialed in, but it is getting better. The rez I use for flowering plants was at 1400ppm before the tea and now 900-1000ppm seems to be what it wants.
The water in my mother rez was at 1100ppm before tea. I set it at 650ppm this last time and the Ph is still falling while the ppm goes up. Next time I will mix it up to 450-500ppm and see how that does, but that seems very low for big mother plants. I know the bennies in the tea make the plants use more water and need less nutrients, so do my numbers sound about right? The strain in question is WW.

Thanks again,
G

400-600ppm sounds about right for mothers, even bigger ones. If you are keeping careful records and interpreting the information correctly, you can be confident that your plants are feeding as expected. I wouldn't put a veg plant on 1000ppm unless it was about to enter the flower room.

My plants start at 1000-1100ppm when flowering, and drift up to 1400-1500 after 4 weeks. Your PH falling is odd, you sure you don't have old roots or anything decaying in the res? What products are you currently using?

 

[Goldowitz]

400-600ppm sounds about right for mothers, even bigger ones. If you are keeping careful records and interpreting the information correctly, you can be confident that your plants are feeding as expected. I wouldn't put a veg plant on 1000ppm unless it was about to enter the flower room.

My plants start at 1000-1100ppm when flowering, and drift up to 1400-1500 after 4 weeks. Your PH falling is odd, you sure you don't have old roots or anything decaying in the res? What products are you currently using?

I use Sensi A + B, Big Bud and some Epsom salt. I change my water every other week and clean trays and rez once a month and don't have any dead roots in the rez. Also have over one watt of air power per gallon of water.

This last weekend I drained water in my two mother trays. 2x4 tray / 20g rez for big mothers and a 2x2 tray / 10g rez for small mothers, seedlings, etc. This was a bimonthly drain and fill, not a full cleaning.
In the first rez I used:20g RO water, tea, 18 tsp part A, 18 tsp part B and the mix came to 650ppm. After four days the ppm was up to 770 and the ph was falling fast. Yesterday I drained about 40% of the water and filled with new RO water and tea. The ppm was down to 520 and back up to 570 today with the ph still falling.

My second tray I filled with: 10g RO water, tea, 8tsp part A, 8 tsp part B and the ppm came to 465. By the fourth day the ppm was up to 670 with ph falling. I drained some of this rez yesterday also and the new ppm came to 400 and today it is up to 430.

6/4 I drained, cleaned and sterilized my 40g rez for my flowering plants.
Filled with: 40g RO water, tea, 150ml big bud, 35 tsp epsom, 50 tsp part A, 50 tsp part B for a total ppm of 1000. This was stable for a few days and then the ppm slowly started to climb. When it got around 1100 the ph started to drop along with the rise in ppm. Today it was at 1200, but it took almost two weeks to get that high. This weekend I will do a drain and fill of this rez and set the ppm to around 900.

Also, FWIW, my flowering plants are on a one week perpetual cycle on a single 4x4 tray. I need to dial it in so that plants in different stages are happy together.

Thanks,
G

 

[Heisenberg]

I was reading through Ed Rosenthal's Marijuana Grower's Handbook, OFFICIAL COURSE BOOK OF OAKSTERDAM UNIVERSITY edition, and it said quote

"Chloramine can also be removed from water by adding a gram of Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) per 75 gallons (285l) of water. Adding ascorbic acid to the water is safe for both the plants and you."

Has anyone tried this and do you personally think that this would work Heisenburg.

Onee other note, I ran out of Koi food a few weeks back, and I have beenfeeding them Cheerios, it is a good food to feed them usually when the water starts to warm, but this is not the case. Since I have been feeding them the Cheerios, the water has gotten alot cleaner. I assume that it is from the wheat that it is made from??? I have added small bails of hay in the past or whatever product you add that when it breaks down in the water natural enzymes start to breakdown the sludge and clear the water. I wonder for those of you running hydro and are having some slime or root issues that if you add a cup of Cheerios to your rez. to float around that it might benefit your water and root sytems like it has my pond. I can see the roots now and they seem to be much cleaner as well in the pond, unless my koi are feasting upon them.

Just a random thought and something that I noticed happening to my pond water.

Well I don't doubt Ed's word, but I also think Ed's recommends a sterile res. Ascorbic acid is a very effective preservative so I wouldn't be comfortable having in my res anymore than I would chloramine. Of course it may be than when diluted it's fine and breaks down quickly, but i'd rather get an RO filter. Interesting idea with the cheerios, I may try that in my parent's pond.

 

[Heisenberg]

I use Sensi A + B, Big Bud and some Epsom salt. I change my water every other week and clean trays and rez once a month and don't have any dead roots in the rez. Also have over one watt of air power per gallon of water.

This last weekend I drained water in my two mother trays. 2x4 tray / 20g rez for big mothers and a 2x2 tray / 10g rez for small mothers, seedlings, etc. This was a bimonthly drain and fill, not a full cleaning.
In the first rez I used:20g RO water, tea, 18 tsp part A, 18 tsp part B and the mix came to 650ppm. After four days the ppm was up to 770 and the ph was falling fast. Yesterday I drained about 40% of the water and filled with new RO water and tea. The ppm was down to 520 and back up to 570 today with the ph still falling.

My second tray I filled with: 10g RO water, tea, 8tsp part A, 8 tsp part B and the ppm came to 465. By the fourth day the ppm was up to 670 with ph falling. I drained some of this rez yesterday also and the new ppm came to 400 and today it is up to 430.

6/4 I drained, cleaned and sterilized my 40g rez for my flowering plants.
Filled with: 40g RO water, tea, 150ml big bud, 35 tsp epsom, 50 tsp part A, 50 tsp part B for a total ppm of 1000. This was stable for a few days and then the ppm slowly started to climb. When it got around 1100 the ph started to drop along with the rise in ppm. Today it was at 1200, but it took almost two weeks to get that high. This weekend I will do a drain and fill of this rez and set the ppm to around 900.

Also, FWIW, my flowering plants are on a one week perpetual cycle on a single 4x4 tray. I need to dial it in so that plants in different stages are happy together.

Thanks,
G

Well having different stages of plants share a res is sure to play tricks on your ppm and ph, but your mothers are acting weird. You may want to get some simple nutes like GH for your mothers. Tried and true and absolutely fine for mother plants. Also, don't worry so much about dialing in your mothers. They will try to be as productive as possible and will probably feed faster than you want. If you need them to grow slower or faster, you can adjust the ppm's accordingly.

 

[onthedl0008]

Hey Heisenberg great thread sir. I'm going to try to breed my own soon as I get the extra time to get the required supplies. I had a quick question.. I picked up some Great White and was curious if this is going to produce the same beneficial bacteria as described in your thread or if I gotta pick something else up to use with this? Any info would be cool man u have inspired me sir lol. I'm using it exactly how they direct it be used. Maybe I'm crazy but my roots already do just look better haha. I want to say more whiter for sure any tips on how to use it a little better would be apprechiated. Thanks in advance sir.

 

[Heisenberg]

Hey Heisenberg great thread sir. I'm going to try to breed my own soon as I get the extra time to get the required supplies. I had a quick question.. I picked up some Great White and was curious if this is going to produce the same beneficial bacteria as described in your thread or if I gotta pick something else up to use with this? Any info would be cool man u have inspired me sir lol. I'm using it exactly how they direct it be used. Maybe I'm crazy but my roots already do just look better haha. I want to say more whiter for sure any tips on how to use it a little better would be apprechiated. Thanks in advance sir.

Great white has everything you need, but next time order the mycogrow soluble powder from fungi.com. It's identical and about half the price. Brew your great white tea style to make it last much longer. If you want to get some ancient forest to add in the tea you will greatly increase the diversity.

 

[onthedl0008]

Great white has everything you need, but next time order the mycogrow soluble powder from fungi.com. It's identical and about half the price. Brew your great white tea style to make it last much longer. If you want to get some ancient forest to add in the tea you will greatly increase the diversity.

Thanks man seriously! Honestly I think my dro store sells this mycogrow or something very similarly named anyway and it is half the price. I tried to get more info at the time but u know how that goes at the dro stores.
Anyway u say brew my great white tea style.. Exactly how do u mean. I do have an extra bucket and air stone if ur saying I can rig something up to completely maximize my situation and breed my own beneficial bacteria useing the great white id like to know how. This is exactly what I was looking for thanks again in advance man. Next time I am gonna make my own for sure. I'm sure I'm on the rite road now. Thanks

 

[Heisenberg]

Thanks man seriously! Honestly I think my dro store sells this mycogrow or something very similarly named anyway and it is half the price. I tried to get more info at the time but u know how that goes at the dro stores.
Anyway u say brew my great white tea style.. Exactly how do u mean. I do have an extra bucket and air stone if ur saying I can rig something up to completely maximize my situation and breed my own beneficial bacteria useing the great white id like to know how. This is exactly what I was looking for thanks again in advance man. Next time I am gonna make my own for sure. I'm sure I'm on the rite road now. Thanks

See post #1

You will simply use great white to sub for the aquashield+ZHO. The ancient forest is recommended but optional especially if you're not fighting slime. Also, you can reduce the amount of tea to 1 cup per 10 gallon if you are simply wanting maintenance.

Currently, every 3-4 days, I add 1OZ to my flowering buckets and 2OZ to my veg/mothers/cuttings. I divide it into OZ now simply because that's what my turkey baster holds, and it's easier than pouring it into a cup. I could get away with even less but I like to use my tea rather than let it go bad. Remember to pour some tea over the root crown.

 

[onthedl0008]

Great white has everything you need, but next time order the mycogrow soluble powder from fungi.com. It's identical and about half the price. Brew your great white tea style to make it last much longer. If you want to get some ancient forest to add in the tea you will greatly increase the diversity.

See post #1

You will simply use great white to sub for the aquashield+ZHO. The ancient forest is recommended but optional especially if you're not fighting slime. Also, you can reduce the amount of tea to 1 cup per 10 gallon if you are simply wanting maintenance.

Currently, every 3-4 days, I add 1OZ to my flowering buckets and 2OZ to my veg/mothers/cuttings. I divide it into OZ now simply because that's what my turkey baster holds, and it's easier than pouring it into a cup. I could get away with even less but I like to use my tea rather than let it go bad. Remember to pour some tea over the root crown.

Awesome man.Priceless and greatly apprechiated wish I could shake your hand rite now.
Peace