True HP Aero For 2011

[PetFlora]

Trichy - We are using 30 gallon for larger plants grows. The 6 gallons were meant for smaller plants. We have found if you give them a zz top beard trim they respond great up to 4 weeks in to bud. After that the buds are to heave to move around.

Would you mind elaborating on trimming the roots?

 

[chennemann]

Would you mind elaborating on trimming the roots?

Basically we just trim back the roots to make a perfect cylinder. Maybe cut back 1-2 inches all the way around and 2" off the bottom. We view it similar to what air pots do with the roots.

 

[Phlange]

I am a lot newbier than most in here...a girlfriend of mine has an airbrush, with its compressor.
As yiu listed the components of HPA, it struck me that most of these things (including the mister nozzles and controls for the mist size are part of a typical airbrush artist's portable rig.
portable compressor, 10-gallon air accumulator, pressure gauge with solenoid, four outputs for air...most if not all of it...
the compressor motor only needs to come on to fill the accumulator to pressure.
the brush(which is an adjustable misting nozzle) draws its paint (which could be nutrient) from any reservoir through a tube, and it mixes with the air before it leaves the nozzle....
this would mean that the nutrient solution wouldn't have to be compressed inside the accumulator.
The whole rig has a carry handle on it.lol.
As I think about it, and try to play devil's advocate against it...Being the "science-minded" type you described...It is worth a serious look at.

Also something important I just remembered: compressed air always produces water, which a compressor-related setup extracts using a drip catch (also built into the airbrusher's portable compressor.
Shoot...the thing even come with high pressure hoses.

 

[konagirl420]

Hey Tb glad to see the business is going good and just stopping by to keep cheering you on

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Hey Phlange- I have thought about airbrush equiptment myself. I think there's company selling retrofitted airbrush equipment as HPA setup stuff, or so it seemed. Are you just advising this as an avenue to look at- or considering it for yourself? In the end I think the listed components I wrote about aren't any more expensive, and are even more tailored for the job at hand. Of course I haven't seen all that there is out there, so perhaps it is a viable way to get up and running too. The thing is about precise control, especially in metering out the spray. Airbrush technology doesn't have to have such stringent requirements out of the gate, but of course things can be modified to work. Like I said though, it may be cheaper and easier to just get the other stuff I already listed.

Hey guys, just a quick check in... I have been super busy with the new job, and some personal stuff too. I did not permanantly fall off the face of the planet (that doesn't usually happen until after the HPA is built according to the history of HPA)-lol... I just had to tend to other things in life temporarily At least r0m is keeping the show going for now. Be back soon with some progress and pics.

 

[foresakenlion]

Air atomized aeroponics, using air pressure is a valid form, then there's this THAG\TAG\HPA, water pressure based aeroponics, then there's low pressure aeroponics, ultrasonic based, they use it for dry milk processing, another form is centrifugal aeroponics. But all of those are just methods, real aero is fined as the mist range 20-100 (depending on plant species) micron,

That all said, true aeroponics is Richard Stoner's baby, they invented it, they defined it, no one can redefine it, even if their name is PodRacer. Point being any aero in the same is aero, no matter how you get there, so all these terms are just confusing people that don't understand the diff between hydro and aero even more.

On top of that, Stoner uses polyethylene sprayers, he doesn't spend a fortune on brass/steel etc, he's been doing this for thirty years, don't you think if metal was better in the long term that he would use them on his personal systems they use to produce microgreens for profit as a business? Obviously to me the answer is YES, so why would he not use metal, because it corrodes, this is the same reason people use PET EVERYWHERE, especially because of organic molecules tendency to react with each other, this is the same reason metal is pretty much avoided in all hydroponics.

I'm not here to say your setup won't be better, but are you really innovating the wheel or are you just grinding it, and yourself into the ground.

One final point all these people that are trying to avoid 80-10 micron droplets, you do know when your plant is bigger it needs those larger molecules, this has been demonstrated over and over, aero lends its self to SOG, large plants will eventually either A) out grow your chamber or B) require NFT/DWC to survive, if you were providing these larger droplets which they will require later anyway, you might be saving yourself some trouble.

 

[Mike Young]

Air atomized aeroponics, using air pressure is a valid form, then there's this THAG\TAG\HPA, water pressure based aeroponics, then there's low pressure aeroponics, ultrasonic based, they use it for dry milk processing, another form is centrifugal aeroponics. But all of those are just methods, real aero is fined as the mist range 20-100 (depending on plant species) micron,

That all said, true aeroponics is Richard Stoner's baby, they invented it, they defined it, no one can redefine it, even if their name is PodRacer. Point being any aero in the same is aero, no matter how you get there, so all these terms are just confusing people that don't understand the diff between hydro and aero even more.

On top of that, Stoner uses polyethylene sprayers, he doesn't spend a fortune on brass/steel etc, he's been doing this for thirty years, don't you think if metal was better in the long term that he would use them on his personal systems they use to produce microgreens for profit as a business? Obviously to me the answer is YES, so why would he not use metal, because it corrodes, this is the same reason people use PET EVERYWHERE, especially because of organic molecules tendency to react with each other, this is the same reason metal is pretty much avoided in all hydroponics.

I'm not here to say your setup won't be better, but are you really innovating the wheel or are you just grinding it, and yourself into the ground.

One final point all these people that are trying to avoid 80-10 micron droplets, you do know when your plant is bigger it needs those larger molecules, this has been demonstrated over and over, aero lends its self to SOG, large plants will eventually either A) out grow your chamber or B) require NFT/DWC to survive, if you were providing these larger droplets which they will require later anyway, you might be saving yourself some trouble.

Ok, so to touch on this, and your other statement in another thread... Use whatever pump you want, so long as it creates enough pressure to atomize solution to the 50-80 micron level. One minute on time is waaaay too long to achieve root hairs. Droplets will form destroying them immediatly. So then your efforts are wasted with one minor oversight. Podracer barely achieved HPA roots, and some would argue that. The only metal you'd find in contact with my nutes is that of the pressure guage. Can't say the same for everybody else, as there are a some components I left out of my system, as I don't rely on a pressure switch to fill my pressure tank. Nobody here is trying to avoid 80 um droplets. Quite the contrary in fact. 50-80 is ideal, more or less is not. There is a guy here by the name of atomizer that really has put most of this stuff to rest. I suggest you read up on his work as more of us true enthusiasts have. You might learn something.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Yes foreskinlion, you have some points. I am assuming you haven't read the whole thread based on your comments. But that doesn't bother me at all - it's actually getting pretty big! All you've said has been basically covered and thought of believe it or not. I am actually using Stoners Nozzles. We aren't so much trying to invent anything here, but duplicate from those who have achieved excellent results. Even the Bio-controls Genesis units Stoner sells would seem to be severely overpriced whilst not providing the optimum environment (the systems do not have as precise control over the mist others have found to work better and create the real seperation between aero, and optimum aero). Anway, I get your points, but I'll say we've already been there. I also stand behind Mike's comment that Atomizer (and tree farmer as well) seem to have an excellent working knowledge of these systems and how to optomize them. I am trying my hardest to follow their advice and knowledge to a T. Check back in a while and see the results. I am hoping for some nice roots, and if not- then I will keep trying till I get it right. It has been a lot of fun in the process no matter what- this project is not only about results to me, but also a sort of adventure. I'm enjoying grinding my wheel I guess...

 

[kmbud]

.TB,
These days i use a poly bag to catch the mist and weigh it on a set of digital scales (0.001g resolution), its more accurate than a syringe
Video footage and editting software are essential tools imho. If you take your timer and nozzles at face value you could potentially overmist by 100% and not even realise it. You calibrate your ph/ec meters to make sure they are accurate, why not do the same with the timer and nozzles using video and scales.
I took a vid of the timers relay contacts (close/open) to check the accuracy. I video the misting pulse, deduct the timer result and that gives me the hydraulic/electrical delay and any mist run-on unique to the system. The digital scales test tells me how much liquid the nozzles are delivering compared to the lab report. Testing is the only way to know for sure.

I was looking on ebay for a scale to do this. Can you suggest one that will do the job? Also what size or type of poly bag do you use?

And on a different note: I am going to make a Canna Substra order. I am going to get the soft a&b in veg and soft a&b in flora both, 4 containers one of each. Are there anything else I will need as far as nukes goes? You have weeks back suggested I use the Canna Substra series because it is made for drain to waste systems. I want to try to get all that is needed for a complete grow start to finish.

Thanks for your help.

 

[foresakenlion]

I meant no offense if I did not read every post.

Stoner's system is highly overpriced though when I see projects that do proper HPA they all agree on the basic components of the system being the same, the only major differences I see are safety and reliability, as well as capacity changes, sans those the only major is materials choices.

Has anyone tried screening off their roots with a micro mesh to block offending droplets of inappropriate sizes.

By that same token and on another note has anyone tried to use micro mesh to split a jet into the desired droplet sizes at the end of the line instead of micro jets?

I am very interested in this subject and in no ways mean an offense between any parties I've seen these threads die over and die because of that and I will have no part of it, I merely aim to ask questions I believe the answers to have merit for everyone that is interested in this topic.

If I did not mention it before, google mist google, check out their equipment and get back to me on your opinion of it, for this use, they have line rated to 1000 PSI, and stainless steel braided pressure tubing, as well as all the sprayers one would need for a true HPA, but I'd like a second opinion.

 

[foresakenlion]

To Mike, I've read quite a few of his points and compared to other people I believe he makes a stronger fact based stance on several topics.

Like he pointed out to one gentlemen some bad advice about a pressure relief valve that potentially could have lead to serious injury of said gentlemen.

Ok so you're saying you're aiming for 50-80 that's good, I've seen some quote different numbers, Stoner's machines say they aim for 30, and the stated reason is because they penetrate to the depth of the root mass, now I'm inclined to believe they know what they're doing since they've had a lot more hands on time than ANYONE posting anywhere on this topic.

I've seen people postulate that plants of a certain size require the larger tap roots as they have higher surface area which is then colonized by beneficial myco's that increase the plants ability to absorb key nutrients like P in flower, that it naturally no matter how proficient the delivery mechanism can not absorb without the aid of the myco's enhancing materials they produce.

If you think about it, it certainly appears to be a sound theory, as in a true HPA you wouldn't have tap roots, you won't have a very large myco colony though certainly they would be there, just with significantly less area to grow.

 

[foresakenlion]

Sorry for the third post but this interests me, and I have some questions about your and others opinions.

I've been looking at mist cooling ever since I started reading about this topic, and they have these misting rings, that are meant for the big fans they have at sporting events, they're rated to 1500 PSI, and come in diameters of 12-42", now the reason I've been considering these is because when I'm thinking of doing the layout for the system, it'll either be trays in my mind like the aerojet/flo, or using a reservoir/flood rable with a top and then turning into basically an aerocloner on roids, or thirdly as one continuous spiral, as to avoid pressure drop at the corners, since there wouldn't be any corners. I'd imagine you'd have one plant site in the middle over the first nozzle and then spiral outwards, I know you could probably do the same spiral without the lines, for cheaper with more sprayers, but it's a nice piece of kit, so opinions gentlemen?

KM all you need is the all the macro, and micro nutrients, google a list, then check the labels of your products, make sure you have all of them, if you're missing micros, Kelp is an excellent way to incorporate the rarer ones, like gold, silver, etc that are believed to have beneficial effects on plant growth though understanding their function is beyond science.

Beyond that, all products are either A) designed to enhance growth rate of a healthy plant or B) help a distressed plant deal with disease/infection/infestation or aid them as a preventive before they develop.

I can recommend some compounds that help in the above ways without mention specific products.

For example silica aids your plant by making the cell walls stronger which helps when harvest comes and your fruit are breaking your wimpy branches, use during vegetation, stop during flowering.

There are brassinosteroids, from rapeseed which affect cell division and elongation, though I haven't experimented with them personally, in kelp however there is cytokinins which like brassinosteroids also affect cell division and elongation which is very important, as some growth hormones merely cause cell elongation, causing it to visually appear to be larger, while atomically it's the same size, where cell division causes an atomic growth of the entire structure, though eliciting both effects would lead to a huge plant.

Then there is salicylic acid, and chitosan, the acid coming from the willow tree, and chitosan coming from crab shells, both of these do not effect the plant directly, instead their is a reaction in the plants immune system that triggers it to vastly improve its defenses, this can be uses on plants under active stress to relieve, or it can be used on healthy plants to boost their vigor.

I hope that helps as a general outline, without all the marketing hype involved in the business.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

I meant no offense if I did not read every post.

Stoner's system is highly overpriced though when I see projects that do proper HPA they all agree on the basic components of the system being the same, the only major differences I see are safety and reliability, as well as capacity changes, sans those the only major is materials choices.

Has anyone tried screening off their roots with a micro mesh to block offending droplets of inappropriate sizes.

By that same token and on another note has anyone tried to use micro mesh to split a jet into the desired droplet sizes at the end of the line instead of micro jets?

I am very interested in this subject and in no ways mean an offense between any parties I've seen these threads die over and die because of that and I will have no part of it, I merely aim to ask questions I believe the answers to have merit for everyone that is interested in this topic.

If I did not mention it before, google mist google, check out their equipment and get back to me on your opinion of it, for this use, they have line rated to 1000 PSI, and stainless steel braided pressure tubing, as well as all the sprayers one would need for a true HPA, but I'd like a second opinion.

No offense taken at all man, all I've done here is try to condense what I considered the most valid points and best advice in one place, but as this thread keeps going, it's becoming less condensed- . What you take or leave is your own business, but I will mention one underlying theme that I think seperates the men from the boys in terms of excellent results. Often not paid nearly enough attention to is the control of the mist. Yes, most people agree on droplet size, but saturation timing and instant on/off of the mist has everything to do with it, even the Genesis systems do not have the precise timing and control we are talking about here from what I can tell. Imagine you're trying to airbrush a painting, but you throw a bucket of paint on the canvas before and after the airbrushing (pretty much what pressure ramping or overmisting does) (I plagiarized this from Atomizer-lol - it was the perfect way to say it). Sure at one point you had the right aerosol spray, but it does little good sandwiched between 2 layers of soaking wet dripping paint as it will all draw together into a single wet dripping film. Where the real benefits of hpa start is where you get the roots a little mist, but don't have them covered in a film of nutes so thay are starving of oxygen contact which would just mimick simple NFT hydroponics.

The screens over the nozzles or roots would not work in my mind due to the nature of water to attract and clump together. Spray a fine mist on a window screen (which has much larger holes even than you are thinking of) and the surface tension and adhesion will cause the water to span and close the gaps between the threads forming a shield. The only thing remotely close to what you are talking about is a centrifigul misting system that uses something like an air stone spinning at very high rpm which shears the droplets into a very fine mist as they exit the stone pores.

I answered your thoughts on going higher pressure in Cavadge's thread, and in my mind, it's not going to give you any better results, but pleny more expense and headaches (actually good news since you won't feel like your simpler 100 psi system is not as good as it can get).

You won't need to worry about any myco colony, as the Canna is completely usuable and available to your plants without the metabolization by bennies. You can even use bleach/h202 to inhibit the bad guys, without fear that it will hurt any necessary good guys as they aren't needed with the chemical nutrients. I actually like the idea of a sterile environment, as it takes away alot of possible variables, while allowing you to freely use oxidizers as necessary to keep away disease. You can of course do an organic aero system, but I'd tend to think it would be riddled with nozzle clogs and other things.

I've read some of the research for salicin and what not, and don't doubt they all have some merit. The good news is, a properly dialed in aero system should probably perform so well, that you can call it good there, and any other slight beneficial effects those things might make would be like 1% better or something not even worth the time (only a guess). I am pretty sure that time spent on properly controlling the mist and dialing in the basic NPK nutrients will give exponentially better results than having any of those main points off and trying to work with other additives/techniques. I am a fan of silicon though- why not use it through flowering? The only negative I've ever heard about it is that certain plants can use silicon to make little glass hairs that aren't unlike asbestos to us, and can even possibly be carcinogenic as well. A recent study showed wheat actually did this exact thing, and they tried to make the connection that middle eastern cultures who eat alot of bread have the highest incidence of esophageal cancers. I think it boils down to nothing is purely good or evil, just everything in balance and moderation, and our bodies can take the good and deal with certain levels of the bad.

 

[kevin murphy]

you should of give me link for this mate..im subbed if that ok lol..

 

[foresakenlion]

You are confusing 'mesh' with' microns'. The higher the mesh, the smaller the micron. 200 mesh = 60 micron. 100 mesh= 150 micron

I stand corrected. Thank you.

For the silica, I believe what you're talking about hairs on the outside is actually a phenomenon out of England where dealers are placing silica dust unto buds to give them a more sparkly appearance, silica which is liquid glass in the amorphous (smooth) non crystalline form (sharp) like that found in DE, smoothly is absorbed into the plant where it is used along with carbon to strengthen the cell wall, allowing the plant to be bigger, have more fruit etc, like a grid work in a sky rise. Most people say to stop use in flower, because vegetative growth is finished, and adding silica will force the plant to do something with it, which at that point would divert energy from fruiting, it's also generally believed to make the plant smoke harsher as there should be more residual molecules left in the water in the stem, which when you cut your plants will be sucked into the buds by osmosis, instead of being biologically bound and incorporated into the walls. There might be something to do this, but I don't know empirically, for me the best argument was the above and the fact that silica is a very expensive additive when you buy as an additive. So my advice is to use it in the seed stage as a per-soak with your Superthrive, and vegetation.

Considering a large Cannabis plant is a Sativa at 18 ft, I am inclined to say that aero supporting large plants, is still valid, though, from that THC Farmer thread, I suppose any Indica should do rather well.

AgriHouse is on Youtube, if you search Aeroponics, you will find a video of them selling micro greens to local restaurants, in the video they state their on to off ratio is 3 seconds on / 4 minutes 57 seconds off.

And you saw that guys stems out of his cloner on GC, they were over a half inch but if he used silica and kelp, they would have been over an inch easy, do not doubt the growth power of the cytokinins in kelp, if you do, just look up Australian Bull Kelp, and how fast it grows every day.

As a medical grower I try to take this as serious as possible, not just for me but all the other people that will read all these posts someday I hope they gain something from it like I have from others. And I must apologize for helping uncondense it, but I think you've chronicled a lot of information here, and sans a permanent wiki or forum on the topic, this is as good as it's going to get for people looking for information, take it or leave it, it's how it's.

 

[foresakenlion]

On another note, I get no money from this, but a lot of this equipment seems to be the same for RO machines, the JG fittings, the sediment filters, accumulators, etc, So that in mind a year ago when I was shopping for an RO machine I found a guy who's a power seller on ebay named purewaterclub, he had awesome prices at the time, maybe some of you know him, maybe he has good prices on the tanks, check it out if interested. BTW if you guys know any other places other than like US Plastics, Mist Cooling or the few other site provided here for equipment like this please do share as this is on area of aeroponics that is the most mysterious.

 

[foresakenlion]

Specific link to specific video stating 3 second timing - youtube.com/user/AgriHouse#p/u/2/oIwzW0huBRA

 

[foresakenlion]

http://www.foodengineeringmag.com/Articles/Departments_and_Columns/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000349413 <- interview with one of the creators, claims they INVENTED the nylon micro jet specifically because of calcification,

 

[PetFlora]

Specific link to specific video stating 3 second timing - youtube.com/user/AgriHouse#p/u/2/oIwzW0huBRA

The exact wet cycle has more to do with a variety of factors

1. Size of Pod
2. Ambient Temperature
3. Number of Mist Heads
4. PSI
5. RH - relative humidity
6. Number of plants in pod
7. Size of root mass in pod

There are probably a few I missed here, but I think you get the point. You have to carefully watch your roots and adjust based on how they respond.

 

[PetFlora]

Question to anyone cloning. Do you clone in HPA, and if so what W/D cycles do you use? I find I have to use a bubbler until I get a golf ball size root ball, otherwise I have to run my wet cycle way too long, creating spaghetti roots and requiring considerably more nutes per day.I recycle during early veg, but it's still a PITA.