America Before The Entitlement State

[NoDrama]

"“Those in need,” historian Walter Trattner writes, “. . . looked first to family, kin, and neighbors for aid, including the landlord, who sometimes deferred the rent; the local butcher or grocer, who frequently carried them for a while by allowing bills to go unpaid; and the local saloonkeeper, who often came to their aid by providing loans and outright gifts, including free meals and, on occasion, temporary jobs. Next, the needy sought assistance from various agencies in the community–those of their own devising, such as churches or religious groups, social and fraternal associations, mutual aid societies, local ethnic groups, and trade unions.”


So, Trattner presumes that we all are still geographicaly if not emotionaly still close to family, or kin (isn't that the same?) or neighbors, we aren't. I challenge the majority of you to ask your neigbors for a cup of sugar let alone a helping hand. Defered rent? hardly likely in this day and age. Ask for your local (regional chain) grocer to extend you some credit and see exactly how far that might get you. Find me a "saloon keeper" that will extend you a looan that is not usurous.

Here is a small hint for our conservative friends who pine for the good old days - we are not an agrarian society of 100 million any more. We number three times that and we live in cities, we don't much grow our own food anymore, our banks are multinationals, our stores are national and faceless corporations play a large part in what we do, what we owe and where we go. Those idilic times were not actually so idilic, we had far shorter life expectances and most of us lived brutish, diseased, accident prone little lives.

Sometimes I marvel at how many conservatives dream of the wonderland of a past that never was.

If you feel you can't borrow a cup of sugar from your neighbor are you sure the problem isn't you?

lots of great neighbors in my neck of the woods, we help each other out almost daily.

The word you are trying to spell is Idyllic.

 

[NoDrama]

progressive talking points?? more like history...

i point you to a pretty technical study on the effects of social security expenditure on elderly poverty rates...

http://www.nber.org/aginghealth/summer04/w10466.html

i warn you in advance it'll cost you $5.

i mean you can try to dismantle the methodology instead of attacking the author, if you can...

from the summary:



good luck.

According to your graph you think is so great, the SS program didn't do shit fuck all for almost 30 years before it had any effect, which basically means it must be something else that kept the elderly out of poverty besides SS. SS came about in 1935, but the graph and the accompaniment article says that the great change didn't happen until after 1965. perhaps it was Medicare and Medicaid that did it? perhaps it was the proliferation of color television or even perhaps the fact that the Minnesota Vikings can't win the super Bowl. Who is to say since correlation does not necessarily mean causation and in this case there isn't even correlation.

 

[WillyBagseed]

First , it is an article from Forbes.............. nuff said on that

It sounds like a modern version of Scrooge in a christmas carol

Social Security is not "on the dole" and not an "entitlement" you pay for it with payroll deductions. Yes it needs to be fixed but at least call it what it is.
And no it is not a ponzi scheme, ponzi involves no intended investment or reimbersement, just a straight up take your money and run. . SS has actually been sending out checks for a long long time.

If you really are that upset about taxes then let us go back to what we used to do and pay for everything with tariffs?? WTF... I thought you would like that .... lol

Austrian School does not like math, or statistics and is based on "if everyone does... then" . Everyone will not abide by the necessary processes to make it work and deep down you all know this. If you wish to lie to yourself and continue to dream of the promised land , so be it.

I love how "liberals" are tagged with wanting to live in a Utopian world when most just want a bottom base line for living standards.

Austrian school Libertarians are the utopian dreamers.

** No I am not a liberal or a democrat, they are too far to the right for me.

**That 6.2% (or 4.2%) payroll tax is just soooooooo much $$ they take from me........ just like getting some sugar from your neighbor, maybe it is you that is the problem.

Just like running a business has the "cost of doing business" like it or not, in all societies there is a small percentage of people that cannot and yes some will not do what they need to do to take care of themselves. No you do not have to give them all "color tv's" but you also can't let them starve or go uneducated or without health care.

That is part of the cost of having a civilized society.

Ask your self this: Then make up an answer that makes you feel good about it.

1: Why do the poor and middle class get taxed on 100% of their income Whilst those that make over $106,000.00 (ish) per year are not?
And no, the "Forbes " answer of not being able to take out as much as they would put in is not a valid answer. That already happens to upper income earners who do get SS.

2: What has happened in history, to every single countries citizens and even the country itself, where the wealth disparity was similar to how the USA is today ?

For those who do not know, there used to be a "maximum" wage in this country, wonder why minimum wage is the only thing discussed now.

 

[NoDrama]

And no it is not a ponzi scheme, ponzi involves no intended investment or reimbersement, just a straight up take your money and run. . SS has actually been sending out checks for a long long time.

FYI:

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

SS works in exactly the same fashion, the only difference is motive.

 

[canndo]

If you feel you can't borrow a cup of sugar from your neighbor are you sure the problem isn't you?

lots of great neighbors in my neck of the woods, we help each other out almost daily.

The word you are trying to spell is Idyllic.

You keep trying to single yourself out as different and then claim that because YOU are different, everyone else is surely the same as you. It doesn't work that way. Most people don't know their neighbors in suburbs or cities and if they do, they wouldn't be able to get anything more than what I said, a cup of sugar. Your post substitutes spelling corrections for logic, fact and illumination.

 

[NoDrama]

You keep trying to single yourself out as different and then claim that because YOU are different, everyone else is surely the same as you. It doesn't work that way. Most people don't know their neighbors in suburbs or cities and if they do, they wouldn't be able to get anything more than what I said, a cup of sugar. Your post substitutes spelling corrections for logic, fact and illumination.

Sorry bro, the only one using logic is me, your broad statements are easily disproved, that is why I do it. You keep stating your opinions as fact when they are clearly not. Just because YOU don't like your neighbors and do not associate with them does not mean other people do the same. Antisocial behavior on your part is not indicative of another.

I substitute spelling corrections for logic? Umm no, I use spelling corrections to let you know you aren't using a real word. That is a fact is it not? Idillic isn't a word correct? Look it up, be amazed at the facts. You may even be illuminated by the fact that you aren't using real words. See how helpful that was?

 

[canndo]

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

FYI: SS works in exactly the same fashion, the only difference is motive.

Not even close, your definition seems conveniently cropped. Every Ponzi scheme is dependent upon 1. The participants being unaware of the mechanism and 2. The participants belief that they will gain substancial returns on their investment. Neither is the case with Social Security. This "Ponzi" comparison is simply more nonsense from the fanatical right.

 

[canndo]

Sorry bro, the only one using logic is me, your broad statements are easily disproved, that is why I do it. You keep stating your opinions as fact when they are clearly not. Just because YOU don't like your neighbors and do not associate with them does not mean other people do the same. Antisocial behavior on your part is not indicative of another.

I substitute spelling corrections for logic? Umm no, I use spelling corrections to let you know you aren't using a real word.

So it is your contention that the majority of people in the Unites States have neighbors who are well known to each other and would readily lend to their other neighbors?

 

[NoDrama]

So it is your contention that the majority of people in the Unites States have neighbors who are well known to each other and would readily lend to their other neighbors?

Is that what I said? perhaps you can quote it harder next time. Next straw please.

 

[canndo]

Is that what I said? perhaps you can quote it harder next time. Next straw please.

Then you disagree with that statement?

 

[NoDrama]

Then you disagree with that statement?

Emphatically, you give humanity a bad name because you see yourself as a individual owing nothing to no one and certainly not a cup of sugar. If a person was wounded at your doorstep you would carefully step over them and go about your day, BUT you want government to take my hard earned money and get a bureaucrat to tell you that you have to help the guy on the doorstep. You assume that everyone is as heartless and unsympathetic as you are, but i can tell you that isn't true.

 

[tomahawk2406]

If you feel you can't borrow a cup of sugar from your neighbor are you sure the problem isn't you?

lots of great neighbors in my neck of the woods, we help each other out almost daily.

The word you are trying to spell is Idyllic.[/]

Sorry but your little neighborhood doesn't speak for America.

 

[Justin00]

Everyone seems to think the argument is black and white, but its not. I agree with Bricktop but can't send the dude anymore likes until someone else posts something i like lol. But...... its not as simple as that. socialism and capitalism are are "models", they are guide lines from which we draw in order to craft a system that works for us.

The belief that seems to prevail in America right now is that if someone else has something then I "DESERVE" it also. sounds great doesn't it? but sadly for one person to get anything another must give it up. so you go to work every day to "EARN" your money but then other ppl choose not to go to work and live off a portion of your and the other workers lively hood. now when its one or 2 ppl who legitimately need a crutch for a little while its not really a problem. but when everyone is just standing around with there hands out waiting on someone else to do some to get some money and share it with them then everyone loses the will to work. is it really worth going to work everyday when 42% of what you earn you have to give away, and sure some of that goes to things we use everyday but ................. actually i'm sorry this takes to long to explain and its damn near impossible to explain in a way that others will understand.

so here would be my most reasonable solution:

America is big and filled with MANY different ppl with many different beliefs. America was founded on the idea that united states could provide a more efficient effective government for the citizens of the area than a large federal government that uses blanket laws and regulations to lump huge diverse groups of ppl and places into one boiling pot. we are watching it happen.

What if you could have a say in the things most relevant to you? what if you and your neighbors got to decide most of rules you had to follow while living in that area? what if it wasn't ppl on the other side of the nation that decided the rules you lived by? what if the federal government only interfered in interstate and international relations and allowed states/counties/communities to make any decisions that only effected them? what if the terms of liberties were extended rather then restricted? what if you were given the option to do more of the stuff you liked in return for putting up with others doing more things they liked?

What if you could help customize the area you lived in to have the laws, regulations, and freedoms that are most important to you and others like you? What if you could choose to live in a place that functioned exactly the way you wanted to live?

now to tie this all back to the topic, what if the only people you had to help support were ppl you knew, ppl you liked, ppl you lived near, ppl who you knew the situation of?

 

[Justin00]

Emphatically, you give humanity a bad name because you see yourself as a individual owing nothing to no one and certainly not a cup of sugar. If a person was wounded at your doorstep you would carefully step over them and go about your day, BUT you want government to take my hard earned money and get a bureaucrat to tell you that you have to help the guy on the doorstep. You assume that everyone is as heartless and unsympathetic as you are, but i can tell you that isn't true.

i very much agree with what your saying but there is a HUGE difference between, someone asking may i borrow a cup of sugar, and someone showing up at your door demanding a portion of your sugar, and flour, and weed because you owe it to them since that are a person also.

see what i mean?

 

[tomahawk2406]

Everyone seems to think the argument is black and white, but its not. I agree with Bricktop but can't send the dude anymore likes until someone else posts something i like lol. But...... its not as simple as that. socialism and capitalism are are "models", they are guide lines from which we draw in order to craft a system that works for us.

The belief that seems to prevail in America right now is that if someone else has something then I "DESERVE" it also. sounds great doesn't it? but sadly for one person to get anything another must give it up. so you go to work every day to "EARN" your money but then other ppl choose not to go to work and live off a portion of your and the other workers lively hood. now when its one or 2 ppl who legitimately need a crutch for a little while its not really a problem. but when everyone is just standing around with there hands out waiting on someone else to do some to get some money and share it with them then everyone loses the will to work. is it really worth going to work everyday when 42% of what you earn you have to give away, and sure some of that goes to things we use everyday but ................. actually i'm sorry this takes to long to explain and its damn near impossible to explain in a way that others will understand.

so here would be my most reasonable solution:

America is big and filled with MANY different ppl with many different beliefs. America was founded on the idea that united states could provide a more efficient effective government for the citizens of the area than a large federal government that uses blanket laws and regulations to lump huge diverse groups of ppl and places into one boiling pot. we are watching it happen.

What if you could have a say in the things most relevant to you? what if you and your neighbors got to decide most of rules you had to follow while living in that area? what if it wasn't ppl on the other side of the nation that decided the rules you lived by? what if the federal government only interfered in interstate and international relations and allowed states/counties/communities to make any decisions that only effected them? what if the terms of liberties were extended rather then restricted? what if you were given the option to do more of the stuff you liked in return for putting up with others doing more things they liked?

What if you could help customize the area you lived in to have the laws, regulations, and freedoms that are most important to you and others like you? What if you could choose to live in a place that functioned exactly the way you wanted to live?

now to tie this all back to the topic, what if the only people you had to help support were ppl you knew, ppl you liked, ppl you lived near, ppl who you knew the situation of?

Then it would be like the wild west all over again? Would u really want different laws and regulations every 50 miles? While it may sound like a good idea, it's not really logical.

 

[NoDrama]

Sorry but your little neighborhood doesn't speak for America.

But Canndos does? LOL circular logic fault. Stop filling your life with hate.

 

[NoDrama]

i very much agree with what your saying but there is a HUGE difference between, someone asking may i borrow a cup of sugar, and someone showing up at your door demanding a portion of your sugar, and flour, and weed because you owe it to them since that are a person also.

see what i mean?

yeah, thats pretty much how it is. Ask and you may receive, steal and expect retaliation.

 

[Justin00]

Then it would be like the wild west all over again? Would u really want different laws and regulations every 50 miles? While it may sound like a good idea, it's not really logical.

of course when you take what i said word for word your right it does sound illogical. but like i said earlier, its about the bigger picture, its about working toward a better tomorrow, and I don't think our current path of lump everything into a huge greedy federal government is the path i would choose.

and you chose the distance of 50 miles to use, and i think that small decisions could very well be made in ranges like that. and in truth they still are to some extent. some examples would be HOA's, school districts, and property taxes. so such and idea is not unreasonable. I think that even more decisions can trickel down to lower government lvls than they are currently at. and to provide the most relevant example of that: Marijuana Laws?... is there a reason that cannot be handled at the state level?

And if i may ask what benefits of a huge overwhelming federal government do you value the most? What things, particularly in respect to welfare, do you think needs to be handled at the federal level, meaning what laws do you think DC should make to apply to all states regardless of personal preference of the states citizens of the state? and how will they benefit you?

the way i see it, it is very hard to change countries, it is far more reasonable to have different states that operate slightly differently to accommodate the population present.

the other issue i have with the federal government is:
- say we tax up $100,000 to spend on welfare from our citizens this year.

- spend 3x whats required to hire ppl to decide what to do with the money. 10,000

- give congress a cut since we had extra money they had to make decisions about. 5,000

- we want invest 25,000 with hope of future returns and a sustainable system (social security ring any bells) 1 of 2 things happen

1) politicians make investments that are personally beneficial - normally most of the money is lost to poor investments
2) the money is re allocated in the near future and a new tax and new system has to be developed.

- now with 60,000 left we must develop a distribution method.
- hire person to develop a method 2,000
- produce needed facilities 3,000
- create and agency to oversee the welfare distribution 1,000
manager - 1,000
50 staff members - 20,000

- time to start improving the welfare of our nation.... account balance: 32,000
amount needed to help ppl in real need 2,000 each number of ppl claiming they need help 1.8 million.


yeah yeah i know crazy numbers that don't really work but you get the idea. over 70% of the money is spent before it ever begins to be used for the purpose it was taxed for.

 

[panhead]

I am old enough to remember disabled Vets selling pencils outside of Sears. Because THAT was the only way a dude with no legs on a mechanics roll around could survive

Im old enough to remember the vietnam era pretty well ( 56 ) & the ONLY reason anybody in my lifetime would have been selling pencils to survive is because their sense of pride & self worth wouldnt allow them to get on welfare,here in MICH it was called "general assistance",a healthy able body man would recieve $200 a month cash & $100 a month food stamps,big money in 1976.

Welfare was a last resort back then,now its where young folk start their lives,with a food stamp card as soon as they turn 18.

 

[WillyBagseed]

FYI: SS works in exactly the same fashion, the only difference is motive.

no, not really. read exactly how SS works and its investments then find a ponzi scheme that works exactly the same way, similar yes, same no.

Tis closer to Canndo's explanation than the almighty WIKI's first sentence or 2.