Kellogg's organic granular

1337hacker

Active Member
Sweet man, your info is great. I used local nursery mix in one bed and mixed my own in the other... The summer winds nursery mix was only 7 a bag when I got it but had no ewc. I will try top dressing with ewc ;) craigslist the best place to look?
 

Chronicseeker

New Member
Everything is pretty much information.. You can get as simple or as crazy complex as you want. I like simple and cost effective. I learned growing (vegetables, herbs) from family when I was young. Internet and friends in Oregon have taken my knowledge further.

Soil - If you look at what comprises any soil in the world at is very essense it is rock dust or crushed rocks, composted/rotting organic material (Dead animals, plants materials, turtles, humans lol, worms) nothing more. Anything else in the soil is considered an amendment.
So if you go to Africa and grow or decide to live in Alabama, you will understand what is going on.
two most important things:
First, the most important dire part of your soil is your compost (humus source). Good compost, thermal compost that went through a hot/cooking period or HIGH quality earth worm castings. This is the cornerstone of organic growing, again your humus source. The compost is a pile of life, and if you can make your own it's better . If you get your compost source correct you will have little to worry about. Check craigslist to source some real worm castings if need be. Grow shops lol.. yeah. Your new shopping place will become farm/feed stores.

Basically the composted organic matter has fulvic and humic acids in it. These acids control water ph among other things. If the science did not work that way and food growers had to tend to their crops like cannabis growers have been fooled into, they would be paying 10x as much for any given fruit or vegetable.

After that, the second most important and crucial part is soil preparation. You mix your food mix, like Espoma Plant Tone or any other high quality organic food, with your base soil mix. My soil mix is: 40% peat, 30% rice hulls and 30% homemade ewc. Then this mix is set for anywhere from a few weeks to a couple months; in organics, this period is called nutrient cycling. This is important for the microbial activity in the soil, like bacterias, fungi, and so on with the food chain. Generations of these microbes come and go. The key is that the nutrients never leave, staying in one form or another and waiting to get gobbled up by your plants.
Once you take care of those two components you're good to go. The microbes in the soil work with the roots the plants exudative acids. They send out chemicals that signal the right microbes to the mycorrhiza area to fulfill the plants nutrient desires. Its the system that outdates me, you and the rest of the nutrient companies.
With new garden beds you need to establish a good, fertile soil structure before you can expect good results with the no-till/mulch method.

You can supplement waterings with whatever you feel your plant needs. Some organic growers will use humic acid to keep the levels high, but ther's no real need if your humus source are covered. Adding a top dress of worm castings after every 2 waterings can get depleted acids back in.

Lol if you filled those beds with fox farm ocean forest again yuck. 17 dollars per 1.5 cf. you need 14 bags for 21 c.f. hmm.. $238 before tax and gas to the hydro store. So lets say you get the nice guy, bend over the barrel hydro store discount. You get them for 15 dollars a bag on bulk $255 for 20 cf.

or... example of 20 c.f. super duper alleyooper ocean sky forest you can make mix

BASE MIX & COMPOST
40% 2 bales (8 c.f.) of premier peat(same makers as sunshine mixes) moss 2.2 cf compressed, 4cf uncompressed from home depot $20
30% 2 bales of rice hulls from the feed store $ less the 20
30% worm castings or thermal compost- free for me. Craigslist has them for cheap 20lbs is 5-20 bucks

FOOD & MINERAL MIX
Espoma plant tone home depot $20 for two 8lb bags
44lb bag of azomite from the hydro store( AIEEEE!!!! LoL atleast you get to look at all the fancy dancy labels and price tags) $40
1 gallon aloe vera juice for a wetting agent+ more benificials $8
hmm...
Add in food mix 1-2 cups of espoma per cf of soil 20cf =20-40 cups
1-5 cups of azomite per cf 20-100 cups

Mix and let it sit for a few weeks. Apply an AACT (Actively Aerated Compost Tea) to the pile. So far better from ocean forest or any other dead anerobic (no oxygen, bad microbes) bagged soil. As for the cost... hmm $128 bucks before tax and gas. If you pay 20 bucks for 20lbs of worm castings. That leaves me .. 110 bucks for 55lbs alfalfa meal, 55lbs kelp meal, a nice bottle of Dynagro Protekt (silica), which is similar to Botanicare Silica Blast, but not watered down to have money made on it, and probably not at the hydro store. Look at real nurseries.

What soil you working with right now? Smart man not going with that stuff lol. I would just topdress it with some earthworm castings and espoma plant tone. Bubble up some aact tea and treat your soil with it for microbes if your working with something half way decent. Don't use chemical salt ferts or bottles it upsets all the microbes and kills them.

I feed the soil and microbes, which feed the plants. Most growers are feeding just the plants roots having to chase ph and hope they get the food the plant needs with a dead lifeless medium.

Good growing

Be safe
DG
To all the pissing contestants:
Finally some factual forum knowledge.....
Accompanied by stats....
 

DesertGuru

Well-Known Member
This is some good stuff. I agree with you about making your own sunshine mix. But you said it would be about 30$, well I use advanced sunshine mix #4 and I get my 3.3 bales for about 40. I would rather spend the 10$ then have to hunt down each product and the measure and mix it. When you are dealing with a lot of soil this can get messy and laborious. I spend the extra 10$ and don't have to worry about any of that. Its about convenience not about the product being something novel or special. I worked in a plant nursery for many years and we made our own everything even down to the base soil. After mixing so much soil, and filling a soil sterilizer and then mixing and then refilling and then mixing, I am don't want the hassle. That's just me though and that's what fits my modest indoor grow at the moment. In our outdoor we mix our own soil but fuck if I am the one to do it.
Glad to hear it. I love organics, love the subject. Can learn and talk about it for hours. Sunshine mix 1-15 and the various stles are all good starting points for an organic grow or hydro.

Ingredients for sunshine #4

Formulated with Canadian Sphagnum peat moss, coarse perlite, starter nutrient charge (with Gypsum) and dolomitic limestone.

You get a bale of 3.3 cf bales which is probably 6-6.5 c.f. uncompressed. You still have to mix in your food mix\compost, and minerals. So really adding in some ewc and some rice hulls for aeration is not that much more work.

You can get a bale of peat for 10 dollars at home depot that is 2.2 c.f which is roughly 4cf uncompressed. You take an add 2 cf of rice hulls or perlite and bam. You got 6cf of sunshine #4 mix to work with for under 20 bucks. If you have to invest in getting some aloe vera juice for a wetting agent $8 bucks hi health, food stores, etc. Aloe vera being applied as a foliar spray is called a 'surfactant' and when applied to a soil the grammar changes to 'wetting agent'. Aloe vera is great food for the microbes has high levels or amino acids, carbohydrates, enzymes, magnesium, potassium, etc. That is why people drink it, its a prebiotic (fertilizer for probiotics. does the same for your soil). You buy once and it can last you a year depending on how you use it. Very cheap. Same thing with the rice hulls you'll get 4cf compressed for under 10 bucks and use 1\4 of it if that with more ready for the next bale of peat . My worm castings are free. So for me to make 6cf of sunshine its about 15 bucks if that. So basically under 3 bucks per cf before my food mix. After my food\mineral mix im looking at about 5-7 dollars per cf. So it really depends on your situation. I mix my mixes in a kiddie pool 50 gallons at a time, not to bad. I do have to take a break when my injury starts to act up. I don't even want to begin to think of how much soil I have mixed and moved.



Sweet man, your info is great. I used local nursery mix in one bed and mixed my own in the other... The summer winds nursery mix was only 7 a bag when I got it but had no ewc. I will try top dressing with ewc :wink: craigslist the best place to look?
Sounds good. I would just find out what the soil is composed of. Should be good, but you never know unless you mix it yourself. Yeah craigslist sometimes has had them. I see some guy\place called peters organic world offering them. Not sure have not used his stuff. I make all of my own compost\casting. Let me know what you end up finding out there.

Good growing everyone, be safe

DG
 

1337hacker

Active Member
I'll grab a picture of the nursery mix a little later tonight when I go check on things... can't recall everything that is in it off the top of my head:

I purchased some EWC off a local farmer today at 5 bucks a gallon, shit look awesome can't wait to top dress with it.

I noticed with bed growing that I am getting my top soil drying out very quickly and just not completely happy with that one aspect... What can you recommend as mulch? Thanks ahead of time.
 

DesertGuru

Well-Known Member
I'll grab a picture of the nursery mix a little later tonight when I go check on things... can't recall everything that is in it off the top of my head:

I purchased some EWC off a local farmer today at 5 bucks a gallon, shit look awesome can't wait to top dress with it.

I noticed with bed growing that I am getting my top soil drying out very quickly and just not completely happy with that one aspect... What can you recommend as mulch? Thanks ahead of time.
Sounds great! Not too bad. Cant beat helping out the locals in your area.

Is the whole bed drying out evenly or is the sides getting really dry and the middle staying damp? Either way when we are talking mulch we are talking about rapid water loss or weed prevention.

As for mulch I would just use some compost you got or ewc castings. You will like using the vermicompost as mulch. It great as a mulch and has all that humic acids and microbes

Some people will use rocks, perlite, pumice, etc. Others will use a live mulch like vermicompost like me. Some will just put coconut coir over it.

Good growing

DG
 

Bird Gymnastics

New Member
Sounds great! Not too bad. Cant beat helping out the locals in your area.

Is the whole bed drying out evenly or is the sides getting really dry and the middle staying damp? Either way when we are talking mulch we are talking about rapid water loss or weed prevention.

As for mulch I would just use some compost you got or ewc castings. You will like using the vermicompost as mulch. It great as a mulch and has all that humic acids and microbes

Some people will use rocks, perlite, pumice, etc. Others will use a live mulch like vermicompost like me. Some will just put coconut coir over it.

Good growing

DG
I love all the info. Great to see another organic grower out there. :) vermi compost is fantastic!i have to ask, since you are 100% sustainable organic grower, have you ever tried vegan organics? Right now I have been using BioCanna as a base but want to see if my fermenting processes are working as well as theirs. So far I hit them with teas first couple weeks of flower. (EWC,Kelp meal, fermented sugar cane) then from there they get about 6-10 feedings before cropping. I want to start trying to be 100% sustainable but still can't find the right "veggies" to breakdown and compost.

My soil mix consists of 30% peat moss, 30% coco fiber, 20% EWC, 10% perlite, 5% kelp meal, 5% compost. I have found my mix to be lacking a little bit of nitrogen so supplementing it with beet vinasse hasn't been so bad.im just tired of spending $30 a liter for my base and $100 a liter for my fermented sugar cane. :(
So my question to you is, what are you breaking down to supplyy your plants with the essential NPK and micros needed throughout their life?
 

Chronicseeker

New Member
I love all the info. Great to see another organic grower out there. :) vermi compost is fantastic!i have to ask, since you are 100% sustainable organic grower, have you ever tried vegan organics? Right now I have been using BioCanna as a base but want to see if my fermenting processes are working as well as theirs. So far I hit them with teas first couple weeks of flower. (EWC,Kelp meal, fermented sugar cane) then from there they get about 6-10 feedings before cropping. I want to start trying to be 100% sustainable but still can't find the right "veggies" to breakdown and compost.

My soil mix consists of 30% peat moss, 30% coco fiber, 20% EWC, 10% perlite, 5% kelp meal, 5% compost. I have found my mix to be lacking a little bit of nitrogen so supplementing it with beet vinasse hasn't been so bad.im just tired of spending $30 a liter for my base and $100 a liter for my fermented sugar cane. :(
So my question to you is, what are you breaking down to supplyy your plants with the essential NPK and micros needed throughout their life?
Bird, do you use the bio boost?
 

Bird Gymnastics

New Member
Bird, do you use the bio boost?
I do use the boost but after talking to a fellow gardener I have been experimenting with my own fermented sugar cane. I have some that has been fermenting for a few months now so I am thinking about sending some samples to my buddy in california to get the exact NPK ratios in it. So far mine seems right up there with the bio boost but time will tell. I still have to compare my end product. I amCurrently doing a side by side with my White Fire, comparing bio boost and my own fermented sugars. I'll try and post some pictures tonight.
 

DesertGuru

Well-Known Member
I love all the info. Great to see another organic grower out there. vermi compost is fantastic!i have to ask, since you are 100% sustainable organic grower, have you ever tried vegan organics? Right now I have been using BioCanna as a base but want to see if my fermenting processes are working as well as theirs. So far I hit them with teas first couple weeks of flower. (EWC,Kelp meal, fermented sugar cane) then from there they get about 6-10 feedings before cropping. I want to start trying to be 100% sustainable but still can't find the right "veggies" to breakdown and compost.

My soil mix consists of 30% peat moss, 30% coco fiber, 20% EWC, 10% perlite, 5% kelp meal, 5% compost. I have found my mix to be lacking a little bit of nitrogen so supplementing it with beet vinasse hasn't been so bad.im just tired of spending $30 a liter for my base and $100 a liter for my fermented sugar cane.
So my question to you is, what are you breaking down to supplyy your plants with the essential NPK and micros needed throughout their life?
Glad to hear it mang. Yeah the organic legion is growing (dark laugh).. The veganic gardening method is a system brought forth by Rosa O'Brien, Kenneth O'Brien and May E. Bruce. The grammar was used to make a large distinction between the modern chemical and animal fertilizers/compost that have been used in the near past. They have the idea that animal fertilizers are doing more harm then good to the soil. Then you have the other side of their arguement that animals are being exploited and inhumanly kept\treated(I agree to an extent depending on the source, so I dont use blood meals, or bone meals, feather meal etc. when there are much much better options for npk, minerals etc.).
There have been many sub-methods that have sprung up from this type of method I.E kyle kushmans veganics(lol, another pitch to get you to a garden store near you*hydro store*), among others. I stick more to Bill Mollisons methods I.E. permaculture. Then you have subdivisions of permaculture i.e Vegan permaculture and it avoids the use of any domesticated animals.It is essentially the same as permaculture except lacking the animal care. I love my animals. They love me. I love their fertilizer. I use there poo in my thermal compost which i add "green manures" dandielion, alfalfa, kelp, etc. I then use the thermal compost on my garden and plants. I use the compost to feed my worms as well, that give me some of the best worm castings around. Its an all around circle jerk called permaculture that keeps me from lining other peoples pockets and keeps me from being dependant on any one system. I can take my system and set it up anywhere, produce great food, cannabis etc. Thats my goal, yours maybe to setup a garden in a apartment building, growing differs person to person as will results. That being said. You can still mix a great mix in a crowded living condition or apartments.

BIOCANNA products have been deveopled on the hydroponic theory in which the plant is fed directly, precisely, and to the roots. BioVega, BioFlores and BioBOOST are vegetable-based (vegan organic) nutrients, I.E watered down concentrates. Again this theory is playing into feeding just the plants roots. This is why there is a need for a veg and a bloom formula that is like liquid gold for them. This is the re-invented wheel part that lines their pockets and they drill in peoples heads. Bioboost( what bio-logy is it boosting? Oh yeah the microbes they left out of there products on purpose to sell you something else) is nothing more then a fermented plant extract with some bacteria. It contants naturally occuring delftia acidorvorans. These are plant growth promoting rhizobacteria(PGPR). Bacteria are commonly referred to as plant growth promoting rhizobacteria (PGPR). These are the same biological bacteria, fungus, etc you get out of a healthy live ORGANIC soil mix.They use it as a soil inoculant...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_inoculant. But hey while your here I got some advanced nutrient tarantula and advanced nutrient piranha, oh hey and dont forget this bottle of great white shark. Your buds will be donkey dicks. Oh yeah and over here is...bs


You can do the same thing with just a cup or two of worm castings(high quality). 1-2 tbps of molasses and a bucket of water. Soak as needed, spray your plants etc. They will love you for it. Since you starting into FPE(fermented plant extracts) I would check into EM1 from teraganix. Its one of the few bottled grow items I use, alongside dynagro protekt. Great for compost piles. EM·1 Microbial Inoculant is a naturally fermented live microbial product. Using EM-1 and a type of plant meal (alfalfa, kelp, etc) to make a fermented plant extract will extract all of nutrients, enzymes, carbs, minerals, etc. through anaerobic fermentation and basically makes them all readily available to the plant to use just like you would make a nutrient tea. Minus the fermentation.

30% peat moss, 30% coco fiber, 20% EWC, 10% perlite, 5% kelp meal, 5% compost is a good mix. The reason your having nitrogen issues is a few reasons, you need to up the soil microbes, and get some real food in there. You have a great mix, I would just add some type of mineral source, azomite or glacial rock dust. Topping with ewc will help get any nutrients that have been pulled out back in there and be readily avaliable to the plant. I use a variety of items. For Nitrogen I would use Neem Seed Meal - (organic *5-1-2*obviously has many other uses besides nitrogen just like all the ingredients I try to utilize) or Fish Meal (organic *10-4-0*). Stick with organics. She will reward you.

Good growing

DG
 

1337hacker

Active Member
Glad to hear it mang. Yeah the organic legion is growing (dark laugh).. The veganic gardening method is a system brought forth by Rosa O'Brien, Kenneth O'Brien and May E. Bruce. The grammar was used to make a large distinction between the modern chemical and animal fertilizers/compost that have been used in the near past. They have the idea that animal fertilizers are doing more harm then good to the soil. Then you have the other side of their arguement that animals are being exploited and inhumanly kept\treated(I agree to an extent depending on the source, so I dont use blood meals, or bone meals, feather meal etc. when there are much much better options for npk, minerals etc.).
There have been many sub-methods that have sprung up from this type of method I.E kyle kushmans veganics(lol, another pitch to get you to a garden store near you*hydro store*), among others. I stick more to Bill Mollisons methods I.E. permaculture. Then you have subdivisions of permaculture i.e Vegan permaculture and it avoids the use of any domesticated animals.It is essentially the same as permaculture except lacking the animal care. I love my animals. They love me. I love their fertilizer. I use there poo in my thermal compost which i add "green manures" dandielion, alfalfa, kelp, etc. I then use the thermal compost on my garden and plants. I use the compost to feed my worms as well, that give me some of the best worm castings around. Its an all around circle jerk called permaculture that keeps me from lining other peoples pockets and keeps me from being dependant on any one system. I can take my system and set it up anywhere, produce great food, cannabis etc. Thats my goal, yours maybe to setup a garden in a apartment building, growing differs person to person as will results. That being said. You can still mix a great mix in a crowded living condition or apartments.

BIOCANNA products have been deveopled on the hydroponic theory in which the plant is fed directly, precisely, and to the roots. BioVega, BioFlores and BioBOOST are vegetable-based (vegan organic) nutrients, I.E watered down concentrates. Again this theory is playing into feeding just the plants roots. This is why there is a need for a veg and a bloom formula that is like liquid gold for them. This is the re-invented wheel part that lines their pockets and they drill in peoples heads. Bioboost( what bio-logy is it boosting? Oh yeah the microbes they left out of there products on purpose to sell you something else) is nothing more then a fermented plant extract with some bacteria. It contants naturally occuring delftia acidorvorans. These are plant growth promoting rhizobacteria(PGPR). Bacteria are commonly referred to as plant growth promoting rhizobacteria (PGPR). These are the same biological bacteria, fungus, etc you get out of a healthy live ORGANIC soil mix.They use it as a soil inoculant...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_inoculant. But hey while your here I got some advanced nutrient tarantula and advanced nutrient piranha, oh hey and dont forget this bottle of great white shark. Your buds will be donkey dicks. Oh yeah and over here is...bs


You can do the same thing with just a cup or two of worm castings(high quality). 1-2 tbps of molasses and a bucket of water. Soak as needed, spray your plants etc. They will love you for it. Since you starting into FPE(fermented plant extracts) I would check into EM1 from teraganix. Its one of the few bottled grow items I use, alongside dynagro protekt. Great for compost piles. EM·1 Microbial Inoculant is a naturally fermented live microbial product. Using EM-1 and a type of plant meal (alfalfa, kelp, etc) to make a fermented plant extract will extract all of nutrients, enzymes, carbs, minerals, etc. through anaerobic fermentation and basically makes them all readily available to the plant to use just like you would make a nutrient tea. Minus the fermentation.

30% peat moss, 30% coco fiber, 20% EWC, 10% perlite, 5% kelp meal, 5% compost is a good mix. The reason your having nitrogen issues is a few reasons, you need to up the soil microbes, and get some real food in there. You have a great mix, I would just add some type of mineral source, azomite or glacial rock dust. Topping with ewc will help get any nutrients that have been pulled out back in there and be readily avaliable to the plant. I use a variety of items. For Nitrogen I would use Neem Seed Meal - (organic *5-1-2*obviously has many other uses besides nitrogen just like all the ingredients I try to utilize) or Fish Meal (organic *10-4-0*). Stick with organics. She will reward you.

Good growing

DG
Yo man... get the fuck out of my brain... I've been spouting these same things for months now... feels like I'm usually talking to deaf people though because no one ever responds with good info.

I honestly prefer to make my own EM-1 from locally harvested bacteria, I didn't notice you mention that, but it's worth looking into if you wanna save yourself even more, and you'll get strains of bacteria that are beneficial to the environment you grow in.

I'm under the impression that Canna products are just exploiting the em-1 technology, and not giving it any credit at all, then overcharging the end user for the product. While I know it gives people quality when it's all said and done, permaculture, as you noted earlier shouldn't cost more! In fact, FPE's are even cheaper and more sustainable than animal byproducts etc, so the cost should be even lower to the end user, which is not the case with canna for some reason.

And yes, em-1 is legit... you should see what pouring some homemade EM-1 I made on a buddies zucchini did... holy shit. I really want to explore it further, even if it's just for the amazing composting ability that it has.
 

1337hacker

Active Member
My soil mix consists of 30% peat moss, 30% coco fiber, 20% EWC, 10% perlite, 5% kelp meal, 5% compost. I have found my mix to be lacking a little bit of nitrogen so supplementing it with beet vinasse hasn't been so bad.im just tired of spending $30 a liter for my base and $100 a liter for my fermented sugar cane. :(
So my question to you is, what are you breaking down to supplyy your plants with the essential NPK and micros needed throughout their life?
One other thing to add is that while kelp meal is great in soils that are already cooked and ready to go, it can take 2-3 months for it to incorporate properly into the soil... until then it actually makes your available nitrogen drop. If your soil is established (or your reusing it) kelp meal is awesome and disregard what I said, otherwise you might be better off using the liquid stuff. The liquid kelp has pretty much no drawbacks other than you don't want to use it too late in flower :)
 

DesertGuru

Well-Known Member
Yo man... get the fuck out of my brain... I've been spouting these same things for months now... feels like I'm usually talking to deaf people though because no one ever responds with good info.

I honestly prefer to make my own EM-1 from locally harvested bacteria, I didn't notice you mention that, but it's worth looking into if you wanna save yourself even more, and you'll get strains of bacteria that are beneficial to the environment you grow in.

I'm under the impression that Canna products are just exploiting the em-1 technology, and not giving it any credit at all, then overcharging the end user for the product. While I know it gives people quality when it's all said and done, permaculture, as you noted earlier shouldn't cost more! In fact, FPE's are even cheaper and more sustainable than animal byproducts etc, so the cost should be even lower to the end user, which is not the case with canna for some reason.

And yes, em-1 is legit... you should see what pouring some homemade EM-1 I made on a buddies zucchini did... holy shit. I really want to explore it further, even if it's just for the amazing composting ability that it has.
Keep spouting it hehe, we need more organic growers that know what they are doing. I make my own diy EM stuff to. I just always have a bottle of em1 around. Pretty much all the companies are using EM science. Just at different levels, they just make sure they make get a graphic designer to make a nice labal, and charge 50-100 bucks rather then sale a legit product that's the same for 15. Its extremely hard to get out of the bottle nutrient paradigm, its quite the transition to organics.

Kelp meal is just badass and universal - besides kelp meal tea' it is an excellent addition to any soil preparation. If you combine alfalfa and kelp they have auxins and hormones that keep node spacing a.k.a. stretching to a genetic minimum. The best time to apply these two in a tea form, is the first two weeks of flower. As far as nitrogen being lowered, kelp meal CAN slow down microbe growth(not gonna happen in a proper mix), but it sure wont lower any nitrogen levels available. Its always best to hydrate kelp meal before using it. I always have a few 5 gallons buckets with a handful of kelp in it. Water with it every other watering sometimes every time if I'm not lazy(just kelp not alfalfa). Make a tea with 5 gallons of water and a handful of alfalfa\kelp (- 5 Gal. Water,1 Cup Alfalfa Meal, 1/4 Cup Kelp Meal. Let it sit for a few days 3-5. Dilute 50\50 with water, strain them with paint strainer bags from home depot or lowes and apply as a foliar spray. Summer months like these, when heat is a issue, alfalfa tea contains properties which greatly reduce heat stress in plants. Helpful after a topping, lst, or any stress in veg or early flower. I also use some Seaweed\kelp liquid extracts for clones, teas, foliar... Just depends on what I'm doing.

Good growing

DG
 

Chronicseeker

New Member
Kelp is also awesome for transplanting.
If you are transitioning from a mild soil (seedlings) to a hotter soil (mature seedlings/teens) it will help to reduce plant stress.
 

1337hacker

Active Member
Keep spouting it hehe, we need more organic growers that know what they are doing. I make my own diy EM stuff to. I just always have a bottle of em1 around. Pretty much all the companies are using EM science. Just at different levels, they just make sure they make get a graphic designer to make a nice labal, and charge 50-100 bucks rather then sale a legit product that's the same for 15. Its extremely hard to get out of the bottle nutrient paradigm, its quite the transition to organics.

Kelp meal is just badass and universal - besides kelp meal tea' it is an excellent addition to any soil preparation. If you combine alfalfa and kelp they have auxins and hormones that keep node spacing a.k.a. stretching to a genetic minimum. The best time to apply these two in a tea form, is the first two weeks of flower. As far as nitrogen being lowered, kelp meal CAN slow down microbe growth(not gonna happen in a proper mix), but it sure wont lower any nitrogen levels available. Its always best to hydrate kelp meal before using it. I always have a few 5 gallons buckets with a handful of kelp in it. Water with it every other watering sometimes every time if I'm not lazy(just kelp not alfalfa). Make a tea with 5 gallons of water and a handful of alfalfa\kelp (- 5 Gal. Water,1 Cup Alfalfa Meal, 1/4 Cup Kelp Meal. Let it sit for a few days 3-5. Dilute 50\50 with water, strain them with paint strainer bags from home depot or lowes and apply as a foliar spray. Summer months like these, when heat is a issue, alfalfa tea contains properties which greatly reduce heat stress in plants. Helpful after a topping, lst, or any stress in veg or early flower. I also use some Seaweed\kelp liquid extracts for clones, teas, foliar... Just depends on what I'm doing.

Good growing

DG
Thank god for a search function in history...

found this buried

[FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]When seaweed, or indeed any undecomposed organic matter, is put into the soil, it is attacked by bacteria which break the material down into simpler units -- in a word, decompose it. To do this effectively the bacteria need nitrogen, and this they take from the first available source, the soil. This means that after seaweed has been added to the soil, there is a period during which the amount of soil nitrogen available to plants is reduced. During this period seed germination, and the feeding and growth of plants, can be inhibited to greater or lesser degree. This temporary nitrogen deficiency is brought about when any undecomposed vegetable matter is added to the soil. In the case of straw, for example, which is ploughed in after harvest, bacteria use up soil nitrogen in breaking down its cellulose, so that a 'latent' period follows. Farmers burn stubble after harvest to avoid this latent period, and the short-term loss of available nitrogen which causes it. But such stubble-burning is done at the cost of soil structure, soil fertility, and long-term supplies of nitrogen which ultimately would have been released from the decomposed straw.[/FONT]

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/seaweed.html

If you can get through the whole page(not directed at you DG), it's worth the read,
 

1337hacker

Active Member
There's another article I was reading that gave specific time-frames on the kelp incorporating... wanna say it was 11 weeks (And it was an article written in 2011 lol)
 

DesertGuru

Well-Known Member
Oh I see what your saying now. Still reading the link.. thanks :). Yeah adding anything that has to be broken down and decomposed can cause ph\nutrient level fluxes. A soil mix properly prepared with a quality humus(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humus) source such as thermal compost/ewc, a deficiency will never be a problem. I could see it happen in hydro or the such though, but not in a quality organic mix.

DG
 

DesertGuru

Well-Known Member
Here is some info from wikipedia under the humus link that I'm referring to:

The process of "humification" can occur naturally in soil, or in the production of compost. The importance of chemically stable humus is thought by some to be the fertility it provides to soils in both a physical and chemical sense,[SUP][7][/SUP] though some agricultural experts put a greater focus on other features of it, such as its ability to suppress disease.


  • Effective humus and stable humus are further sources of nutrients to microbes,(hence not stealing your nutrients) the former provides a readily available supply, and the latter acts as a longer-term storage reservoir.


Gotta have the humus! LoL

Good growing

DG
 

Bird Gymnastics

New Member
Keep spouting it hehe, we need more organic growers that know what they are doing. I make my own diy EM stuff to. I just always have a bottle of em1 around. Pretty much all the companies are using EM science. Just at different levels, they just make sure they make get a graphic designer to make a nice labal, and charge 50-100 bucks rather then sale a legit product that's the same for 15. Its extremely hard to get out of the bottle nutrient paradigm, its quite the transition to organics.

Kelp meal is just badass and universal - besides kelp meal tea' it is an excellent addition to any soil preparation. If you combine alfalfa and kelp they have auxins and hormones that keep node spacing a.k.a. stretching to a genetic minimum. The best time to apply these two in a tea form, is the first two weeks of flower. As far as nitrogen being lowered, kelp meal CAN slow down microbe growth(not gonna happen in a proper mix), but it sure wont lower any nitrogen levels available. Its always best to hydrate kelp meal before using it. I always have a few 5 gallons buckets with a handful of kelp in it. Water with it every other watering sometimes every time if I'm not lazy(just kelp not alfalfa). Make a tea with 5 gallons of water and a handful of alfalfa\kelp (- 5 Gal. Water,1 Cup Alfalfa Meal, 1/4 Cup Kelp Meal. Let it sit for a few days 3-5. Dilute 50\50 with water, strain them with paint strainer bags from home depot or lowes and apply as a foliar spray. Summer months like these, when heat is a issue, alfalfa tea contains properties which greatly reduce heat stress in plants. Helpful after a topping, lst, or any stress in veg or early flower. I also use some Seaweed\kelp liquid extracts for clones, teas, foliar... Just depends on what I'm doing.

Good growing

DG
Glad to hear someone is a fan of teas out here in the desert. :) the teas I end up hitting my girls with early flower and late veg consist of EWC, kelp meal and soluable seaweed. That has been helping a lot with the lack of nitrogen I have been experiencing. Alfalfa meal is one of the simplest and maybe one of the oldest organic methods practiced. Ever see farmers corn fields have alfalfa sprouting before they start their season? A great way to give your gardens all the essentials they will need throughout harvest. So explain to me a little better, what's the break down process of em1? L337 hacker was explaining it to me awhile ago but my buds had gotten me a little to medicated ;)
 

DesertGuru

Well-Known Member
Glad to hear someone is a fan of teas out here in the desert. :) the teas I end up hitting my girls with early flower and late veg consist of EWC, kelp meal and soluable seaweed. That has been helping a lot with the lack of nitrogen I have been experiencing. Alfalfa meal is one of the simplest and maybe one of the oldest organic methods practiced. Ever see farmers corn fields have alfalfa sprouting before they start their season? A great way to give your gardens all the essentials they will need throughout harvest. So explain to me a little better, what's the break down process of em1? L337 hacker was explaining it to me awhile ago but my buds had gotten me a little to medicated ;)
Teas are great, cannot beat them . Yeah we have been using cover crops\catch crops for a long time, alfalfa sends deep taproots down into the soil for soil aeration and conditioning. Alfalfa meal contains great microbes that supercharge your soils microorganisms into make the food readily available to your plants. I would not do a grow without alfalfa if you paid me. Another unique feature of alfalfa meal is a naturally occurring compound called Triacontanol. Triacontanol is a growth hormone that boosts plant growth in just about all species of plants. Its effect is short term and best used as a teas.

Fermented plant extracts work differently. Alfalfa has some great compounds in her, such as triacontanol. if you want to extract the compounds you need to soak the plant material to a point(a tea), but not let it begin to ferment. So my first question would be is what is your specific intended use for it? If your looking for a FPE, for a liquid, plant based fertilizer you can use EM-1 for an expedited extraction and you will end up with a concentrate that will contain all of the elements (not compounds)that are contained in whatever specific plant your usuing.
Having EM-1 in your fermented plant extract with whatever carb source(molasses or your sugar) will speed up the enzyme reactions greatly. If not using EM-1, and just relying on indigenous bacteria it can take a month(30-45 days) or longer for a good fermentation to occur(ph should be around 3 when done). EM-1 is basically lactobacillus cultures, some yeasts, etc. Basically plant material that has been treated with lacto cultures - enough to prevent rotting(hence miso, yogurt, and all the other fermented foods). These anaerobic(not to be confused with aerobic) microbes completely and totally break-down the "molecular" bond of the compounds found in that specific plant.
This is my understanding, the way I have been taught. Extract elements using EM-1. Very fast and will get all of your elements. To keep the compounds from breaking into elements and there sub divisions of secondary units. Then simply brew the plant material in straight water. You don't need or want to add anything else.

Get some alfalfa meal, fish meal or neem meal in there for your nitrogen. Each of them will have secondary uses, if you have fungus gnats use neem meal, they will be gone faster then a lightning bolt(within 1-2 waterings for sure, usually 1). If your looking for growth hormones and help make your nutrients soluble use the alfalfa. Fish.. I just use fish meal cause fish are c*nts lol.

Good growing

time for a smoke
DG
 
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