Abortion is now illegal in the United States

[Rob Roy]

This is a false argument, it casts the notion that because everyone is against abortion then abortion should be made illegal.


I think I can say that almost everyone in this country if not the world is against war, and yet at each instance war will be judged necessary by one faction or another.

Cognitive dissonance. Most people don't think of their personal responsibility in creating and aiding wars to happen. If people are against wars, but they continue to do as they are told...wars will never end. The way to end war is for people to stop obeying arbitrary orders, period.

Wars as practiced by nations are not "necessary", yet people do the bidding of others without pause. Shameful.

 

[canndo]

Abortion will never be made illegal, you liberals can rest safely at night that you can kill as many unborn fetuses as you want.

UB prolly stares at his wife's uterus and wishes a baby was in there so he could root it out and destroy it.

I have posited this "personhood" scenario half a dozen times in the past on different sites. I NEVER get anyone who believes that killing an unborn fetus is murder relate to the scenario. They seem to be incapable of extrapolating the consequences of their beliefs being brought to reality and nodrama is no exception.

What does this really say about those who espouse such a view?

 

[Rob Roy]

I do not believe that the ability to feel pain confers upon humans heir humanness. I am uncomforable wih a fetus being terminated after it could have been kep alive outside of the womb.

Does your discomfort extend to wanting to prevent people from practicing late term abortions ?

 

[canndo]

Cognitive dissonance. Most people don't think of their personal responsibility in creating and aiding wars to happen. If people are against wars, but they continue to do as they are told...wars will never end. The way to end war is for people to stop obeying arbitrary orders, period.

Wars as practiced by nations are not "necessary", yet people do the bidding of others without pause. Shameful.

I don't know where the congnitive dissonance comes in here. My point was a comparision of people who think something is bad, but not always bad - situational ethics or even situational morals. No one things abortion is a good thing. But to leave the discussion at that point is to ignore the reality of belief and furthermore to ignore the fact that there are very few absolute evils or even absoluite good.

 

[Rob Roy]

I don't know where the congnitive dissonance comes in here. My point was a comparision of people who think something is bad, but not always bad - situational ethics or even situational morals. No one things abortion is a good thing. But to leave the discussion at that point is to ignore the reality of belief and furthermore to ignore the fact that there are very few absolute evils or even absoluite good.

....I posit it is good to leave others alone. Evil to make them do things against their will, unless they aren't leaving you alone. I won't declare those thoughts as absolute...but pretty darned close, wouldn't you agree?

 

[cannabineer]

....I posit it is good to leave others alone. Evil to make them do things against their will, unless they aren't leaving you alone. I won't declare those thoughts as absolute...but pretty darned close, wouldn't you agree?

~can't resist~ I do not. (But this isn't the place for that argument.) cn

 

[canndo]

....I posit it is good to leave others alone. Evil to make them do things against their will, unless they aren't leaving you alone. I won't declare those thoughts as absolute...but pretty darned close, wouldn't you agree?

See, the problem here is that everyone wants to be left alone, and everyone wants everyone else to think and act like they do. In a modern society, there is always someone who wants you to do as they would like. "I want to be left alone, but I also don't want you to talk like that, I want you to accept my religious symbols, after all, you can simply turn away, I want you to accept the fact that I don't want to pay for those who are subjugated by society but I also don't want to endure the consequences of their being such a class in our society".


Makes what you would like to see in this country tough.

and, as I said, we are a species that inflicts upon others, it is in our nature to do so and that being the case, I want a construct - government - to protect me from some of that "human nature". You don't.

 

[desert dude]

There is no provision for rape or incest in the Republican party platform. Nor, in my imaginary scenario do I say anything about rape victims or incest or even the endangerment of the mother.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/g-o-p-approves-strict-anti-abortion-language-in-party-platform/

Romeny can call for alterations of the platform of which he is the party leader, yet he has not.

I made a post a day or two ago about the Democratic platform from 2008. We all know what political party "platforms" are: a bunch of happy, empty words.

If a "personhood" law did pass, it would necessarily be followed by implementing legislation... I doubt that your doomsday scenario would play out, which is not to say that I support personhood legislation.

 

[canndo]

I made a post a day or two ago about the Democratic platform from 2008. We all know what political party "platforms" are: a bunch of happy, empty words.

If a "personhood" law did pass, it would necessarily be followed by implementing legislation... I doubt that your doomsday scenario would play out, which is not to say that I support personhood legislation.

You formerly stated that Romney did believe in exceptions for incest and rape. He is shown to be otherwise by default. I saw your post and in fact responded, however, the point here is that the platform is a statement of intent or belief. Dems still believe what they claim. We know Dems, regardless of their actions, state that they do not believe torture is acceptable. This Republican platform states that repulicans do not believe that there should be exceptions for such cases. For them to say "oh just ignore what is in our platform, we don't really mean it" is more than a little delusional and not to be accepted.

 

[desert dude]

You formerly stated that Romney did believe in exceptions for incest and rape. He is shown to be otherwise by default. I saw your post and in fact responded, however, the point here is that the platform is a statement of intent or belief. Dems still believe what they claim. We know Dems, regardless of their actions, state that they do not believe torture is acceptable. This Republican platform states that repulicans do not believe that there should be exceptions for such cases. For them to say "oh just ignore what is in our platform, we don't really mean it" is more than a little delusional and not to be accepted.

I don't know that I formerly stated that but Romney has said he believes in those exceptions, at least he does now, who knows what he believed formerly. I am sure if we wait a while his position will change. Some Dems believe torture is acceptable, and some Republicans reject it.

As far as Democrats ignoring their own platform from 2008, well be your own judge of that. Will republicans, or Democrats implement their 2012 platforms? I am willing to bet good money that neither will do so.

You are trying to skewer the Republicans with their own words, which is fine but it is simply a feint and any body with half a brain knows it.

Are the Democrats "better' than the Republicans? Better yet, is Obama better than Romney? I don't see much difference between them. I will take Romney over Obama just because Romney is not the incumbent, I have seen what the incumbent is like.

 

[Dr Kynes]

No, because there is a pretty good correlation between abortion rates and the plunging crime rates, hence it seems likely that the inverse would also be correlated. Watch, or read, Freakonomics.

i have read that shit. it was garbage. their assertions make even less sense than the morons who think more abortions can result in less crime by eliminating "badguy" genes from society.

"communities" (the new code word for ethnic groups) that have more abortions tend to have higher incidence of people with poor planning skills. the inability to formulate a plan whereby one can come into possession of a rubber has no bearing on liquor store holdups, bank robberies car theft or assault. that is ridiculous.

unless you have developed a new mysterious technology that can predict the future (magic 8-Ball) there is no way to assume that Fetus A, who comes to term, will not become a criminal, or that Fetus B who is aborted would have been the next John Wayne Gacey.

there is no such correlation, as nobody keeps statistics on crime rate versus abortion availiablitiy unless they have already decided how those statistics will look when completed.

Ireland had no legaal abortions, and a very low crime rate for about 800 years. only recently have abortion laws been even slightly relaxed, and the country has not spiraled out of control.

your claims and the claims of the writers of Freakanomics are completely fabricated.

 

[canndo]

I don't know that I formerly stated that but Romney has said he believes in those exceptions, at least he does now, who knows what he believed formerly. I am sure if we wait a while his position will change. Some Dems believe torture is acceptable, and some Republicans reject it.

As far as Democrats ignoring their own platform from 2008, well be your own judge of that. Will republicans, or Democrats implement their 2012 platforms? I am willing to bet good money that neither will do so.

You are trying to skewer the Republicans with their own words, which is fine but it is simply a feint and any body with half a brain knows it.

Are the Democrats "better' than the Republicans? Better yet, is Obama better than Romney? I don't see much difference between them. I will take Romney over Obama just because Romney is not the incumbent, I have seen what the incumbent is like.

"I'll take the fire, I've seen what the frying pan is like"

 

[canndo]

i have read that shit. it was garbage. their assertions make even less sense than the morons who think more abortions can result in less crime by eliminating "badguy" genes from society.

"communities" (the new code word for ethnic groups) that have more abortions tend to have higher incidence of people with poor planning skills. the inability to formulate a plan whereby one can come into possession of a rubber has no bearing on liquor store holdups, bank robberies car theft or assault. that is ridiculous.

unless you have developed a new mysterious technology that can predict the future (magic 8-Ball) there is no way to assume that Fetus A, who comes to term, will not become a criminal, or that Fetus B who is aborted would have been the next John Wayne Gacey.

there is no such correlation, as nobody keeps statistics on crime rate versus abortion availiablitiy unless they have already decided how those statistics will look when completed.

Ireland had no legaal abortions, and a very low crime rate for about 800 years. only recently have abortion laws been even slightly relaxed, and the country has not spiraled out of control.

your claims and the claims of the writers of Freakanomics are completely fabricated.

Abortion was made illegal in the U.K. in 1861 and that law continued in Ireland afterward. Hardly 800 years.

 

[desert dude]

i have read that shit. it was garbage. their assertions make even less sense than the morons who think more abortions can result in less crime by eliminating "badguy" genes from society.

"communities" (the new code word for ethnic groups) that have more abortions tend to have higher incidence of people with poor planning skills. the inability to formulate a plan whereby one can come into possession of a rubber has no bearing on liquor store holdups, bank robberies car theft or assault. that is ridiculous.

unless you have developed a new mysterious technology that can predict the future (magic 8-Ball) there is no way to assume that Fetus A, who comes to term, will not become a criminal, or that Fetus B who is aborted would have been the next John Wayne Gacey.

there is no such correlation, as nobody keeps statistics on crime rate versus abortion availiablitiy unless they have already decided how those statistics will look when completed.

Ireland had no legaal abortions, and a very low crime rate for about 800 years. only recently have abortion laws been even slightly relaxed, and the country has not spiraled out of control.

your claims and the claims of the writers of Freakanomics are completely fabricated.

1973 --- Roe v Wade decision was handed down

Chart of the violent crime rate in the US, 1960 to 2010 --- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

definition of correlation --- Statistics . the degree to which two or more attributes or measurements on the same group of elements show a tendency to vary together.

definition of butt hurt --- not liking what you see.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Abortion was made illegal in the U.K. in 1861 and that law continued in Ireland afterward. Hardly 800 years.

the catholic church has been running ireland all the way up to the invasion by cromwell, and in fact well beyond. abortion (and divorce) have always been illegal there (except divorce which recently was made legal to great outcry)

 

[Dr Kynes]

1973 --- Roe v Wade decision was handed down

Chart of the violent crime rate in the US, 1960 to 2010 --- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

definition of correlation --- Statistics . the degree to which two or more attributes or measurements on the same group of elements show a tendency to vary together.

definition of butt hurt --- not liking what you see.

and your own wikicharts show violent crime in all categories increasing even after roe v wade. or do you propose that crime would have increased MORE had abortion "rights" not been discovered in the supreme court's version of the Cloud Sutra?

i see no correlation in your charts. i see crime increases but also the inception of nation wide crime reporting agencies, the creation of new national crime rate statistics, greater reporting due to improvements in police relations with various ethnic groups, and many other factors. unless you compare those charts to an alternate reality where abortion remained illegal in the US over the same time frame your charts and claims are irrelevant.

if two states each had differing laws regarding abortions, and both states had otherwise similar experiences over the same time frame and one had more crime, the other less then you might find a correlation, but without a second sample for comparison your claims are just claims.

your hasty ill-informed and specious refutation displays a simplistic stimulus/response reaction often found among those who are experiencing acute and severe rectal trauma.

Diagnosis: ButtFrustrated

 

[Samwell Seed Well]

1973 --- Roe v Wade decision was handed down

Chart of the violent crime rate in the US, 1960 to 2010 --- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

definition of correlation --- Statistics . the degree to which two or more attributes or measurements on the same group of elements show a tendency to vary together.

definition of butt hurt --- not liking what you see.

correlatiosn are the back bone of the statistics world, any probability and stat student in college can tell you your conclusion is null and void,

as studies that involve sociological variances in statistics take decades to put to gether

your back yard stat and probability is highly dubious, as a conclusion to anythign other than you never paid much attention in math or you have no idea how real statistics are collected

 

[Grandpapy]

and your own wikicharts show violent crime in all categories increasing even after roe v wade. or do you propose that crime would have increased MORE had abortion "rights" not been discovered in the supreme court's version of the Cloud Sutra?

i see no correlation in your charts. i see crime increases but also the inception of nation wide crime reporting agencies, the creation of new national crime rate statistics, greater reporting due to improvements in police relations with various ethnic groups, and many other factors. unless you compare those charts to an alternate reality where abortion remained illegal in the US over the same time frame your charts and claims are irrelevant.

if two states each had differing laws regarding abortions, and both states had otherwise similar experiences over the same time frame and one had more crime, the other less then you might find a correlation, but without a second sample for comparison your claims are just claims.

your hasty ill-informed and specious refutation displays a simplistic stimulus/response reaction often found among those who are experiencing acute and severe rectal trauma.

Diagnosis: ButtFrustrated

Think of the charts as unwanted adults not living in 1991. 18 years after wade vs roe. You can see the drop.

 

[Samwell Seed Well]

Think of the charts as unwanted adults not living in 1991. 18 years after wade vs roe. You can see the drop.

thats only assuming that they all would have been criminals, oa static percentage would have been . . .makes about as much sense as KONY 2012 . . . .and that crime prevention programs all over the country had nothign to do with diminished crime

 

[Grandpapy]

thats only assuming that they all would have been criminals, oa static percentage would have been . . .makes about as much sense as KONY 2012 . . . .and that crime prevention programs all over the country had nothign to do with diminished crime

Oh, then you wont consider for years after, the Catholic Church condemning the procedure even louder. for they were not happy, with the fact that the bullets I'm dodging are from Hispanic gangs. No correlation?