Here it comes - gun control!!!

[Beefbisquit]

A gun is persuasive in more words and languages than you could ever learn. That's the whole point, you shouldn't have to talk yourself past someone threatening your life. If you want a mugger taking your property and possibly your life, that's your choice. My choice is to have a gun in a wallet and shoot them dead instead.

I'm not saying it isn't. The point is that your liberty cannot encroach my liberty. If you happen to be an idiot with a .44mag and pop a robber in the chest from 4 feet away and end up killing the person behind him, you've just taken that persons life which you have no right to do.

Appropriately trained people should be allowed to carry concealed guns. Taking a 2-4 hour course every 5 years doesn't constitute 'appropriately trained'.

I keep a 12ga beside my bed. It just has a trigger guard on it. Slugs are close by, but locked up as well.

 

[Canna Sylvan]

I'm not saying it isn't. The point is that your liberty cannot encroach my liberty. If you happen to be an idiot with a .44mag and pop a robber in the chest from 4 feet away and end up killing the person behind him, you've just taken that persons life which you have no right to do.

Appropriately trained people should be allowed to carry concealed guns. Taking a 2-4 hour course every 5 years doesn't constitute 'appropriately trained'.

TTBOMK a 9mm hollow point has little chance of doing that. I'm sure it's possible. Just like it's possible my tire falls off and I run a red light, killing a 6 year old kid in the crosswalk.

 

[cannabineer]

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"

If you kill me because you don't know how to properly assess a dangerous situation either by directly shooting me, or by getting me killed by a gunman, I can't very well enjoy my life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

Also, article 3 of the Universal declaration of human rights.

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

Pursuit of happiness is very distinct from personal safety. The framers understood vividly that the desire for security militates against the recognition of personal freedom. You can only choose one.

Also, "security of person" is a specialist phrase meaning security from the misdeeds of the government, not your fellow citizen.

There is no right to personal safety. The fact that a majority wants one is a brilliant demonstration of why we do not hold Federal elections by popular vote. The electors are a safety, not a hurdle. cn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_of_person

 

[Beefbisquit]

Pursuit of happiness is very distinct from personal safety. The framers understood vividly that the desire for security militates against the recognition of personal freedom. You can only choose one.

Also, "security of person" is a specialist phrase meaning security from the misdeeds of the government, not your fellow citizen.

There is no right to personal safety. The fact that a majority wants one is a brilliant demonstration of why we do not hold Federal elections by popular vote. The electors are a safety, not a hurdle. cn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_of_person

Life? You didn't mention the one I specifically mentioned.

 

[Beefbisquit]

TTBOMK a 9mm hollow point has little chance of doing that. I'm sure it's possible. Just like it's possible my tire falls off and I run a red light, killing a 6 year old kid in the crosswalk.

To my knowledge all CCW holders are not required to use 9mmJHP. What about .500SW? .45ACP? 10mm? .50AE? .357mag? .44mag?

To hell with penetration, what about if you miss? What about if in the heat of the moment you close your eyes and shoot blindly while running because nothing you practiced prepared you for the experience in real life?

 

[Dr Kynes]

To my knowledge all CCW holders are not required to use 9mmJHP. What about .500SW? .45ACP? 10mm? .50AE? .357mag? .44mag?

To hell with penetration, what about if you miss? What about if in the heat of the moment you close your eyes and shoot blindly while running because nothing you practiced prepared you for the experience in real life?

and what if the gas main under your house has an undiscovered leak and one night your whole niegborhood goes up in a firestorm?
what if an airliner loses control and crashes right on you?
what if a meteorite falls to the ground and your head happens to cross it's trajectory?
what if that sewer grate you have walked over every day for a decade or more is quietly rusting away and tomorrow it may not support your weight?
what if you sneeze and fart at the same time and prolapse your colon unto death?
what if that darling baby your co-worker has been pushing around the office is a carrier of ebola?
what if you have an aneurism in your brain and it's waiting for JUST THE RIGHT MOMENT to pop so your SUV spins out of control and takes out the bleachers of a peewee soccer game?
what if the world really isnt safe at all, and you must accept that someday you are gonna DIE, possibly (and in fact most likely) before you are ready for it.
what if all the precautions you have taken are in fact worth far less than the foolish mummery of a voodoo adherent, and you might have lived longer had you bought that old gypsy woman's magic charm...

 

[Beefbisquit]

and what if the gas main under your house has an undiscovered leak and one night your whole niegborhood goes up in a firestorm?
what if an airliner loses control and crashes right on you?
what if a meteorite falls to the ground and your head happens to cross it's trajectory?
what if that sewer grate you have walked over every day for a decade or more is quietly rusting away and tomorrow it may not support your weight?
what if you sneeze and fart at the same time and prolapse your colon unto death?
what if that darling baby your co-worker has been pushing around the office is a carrier of ebola?
what if you have an aneurism in your brain and it's waiting for JUST THE RIGHT MOMENT to pop so your SUV spins out of control and takes out the bleachers of a peewee soccer game?
what if the world really isnt safe at all, and you must accept that someday you are gonna DIE, possibly (and in fact most likely) before you are ready for it.
what if all the precautions you have taken are in fact worth far less than the foolish mummery of a voodoo adherent, and you might have lived longer had you bought that old gypsy woman's magic charm...

Those are tragedies, but unavoidable within reasonable precaution. Having an untrained civilian with a deadly weapon in a public setting is not unavoidable. In fact, it's quite avoidable.

Use some common sense. Is that all you have to fall back on is some stupid strawman argument?


None of your arguments change the fact that the USA has by far the most guns, and by far the most firearm related murders of any developed country.

BTW I was responding to another post stating that one specific type of ammo might not cause a pass through kill, so I listed all the other types of ammo that a CCW permit holder has the potential of using. His argument was irrelevant, because dozens of other types of ammo can be used that all can cause pass through kills.

 

[Canna Sylvan]

Those are tragedies, but unavoidable within reasonable precaution. Having an untrained civilian with a deadly weapon in a public setting is not unavoidable. In fact, it's quite avoidable.

Use some common sense. Is that all you have to fall back on is some stupid strawman argument?


None of your arguments change the fact that the USA has by far the most guns, and by far the most firearm related murders of any developed country.

BTW I was responding to another post stating that one specific type of ammo might not cause a pass through kill, so I listed all the other types of ammo that a CCW permit holder has the potential of using. His argument was irrelevant, because dozens of other types of ammo can be used that all can cause pass through kills.

No, you have mental problems. You need to practice more. "la la la. I'm not listening! Guns kill asshole." That arguement is better and quicker.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Those are tragedies, but unavoidable within reasonable precaution. Having an untrained civilian with a deadly weapon in a public setting is not unavoidable. In fact, it's quite avoidable.

Use some common sense. Is that all you have to fall back on is some stupid strawman argument?


None of your arguments change the fact that the USA has by far the most guns, and by far the most firearm related murders of any developed country.

BTW I was responding to another post stating that one specific type of ammo might not cause a pass through kill, so I listed all the other types of ammo that a CCW permit holder has the potential of using. His argument was irrelevant, because dozens of other types of ammo can be used that all can cause pass through kills.

who says they are tragedies?
it's not a tragedy every time some dumbass dies, it happens thousands of times every day. if every death is a tragedy then you must be exhausted from all the weeping.
the simple and undeniable fact that EVERYBODY DIES is not a strawman, nor is the simple fact that SAFETY IS AN ILLUSION.

what IS a strawman is "the USA has by far the most guns, and by far the most firearm related murders of any developed country" i would argue that theres lotsa nations with more guns per capita than the US, for example, rhodesia, or somalia, or iraq, or afghanistan, or chechnya, and they use them to slaughter each other in a fashion that could only be described as Wholesale. here in the US we have Retail Slaughter, and the press are the ones doing the markup and reaping the profits.

i get it, you have all these raw feelings and they make you want to do something, ANYTHING so you wont have to cry your eyes out every time a baby bird falls from it's nest. but the simple solution is to MAN UP, not try and legislate safety rails on all sparrows nests and lifeguards at every birdbath.

you cannot protect everyone, and you especially cannot protect fools from themselves, lord knows we keep trying to protect you from the desirte to surrender al your rights because BHO says youll be safer that way.

if you really want to eliminate guns, eliminate YOUR guns, and then hang out a sign that reads: Gun Free Home, Passive Resistance Only. that way youll be the only one to suffer for your folly.

 

[NoDrama]

We both provided an example of how little is actually required to get a CCW. You failed to address that.

You mean in one single state? We are talking about FEDERAL laws here, your state laws have NO bearing on the argument at hand.

 

[NoDrama]

None of your arguments change the fact that the USA has by far the most guns, and by far the most firearm related murders of any developed country.

That only follows logic, we have the most cars too, and guess what? The most car related deaths. Did you know that the Netherlands has the most bikes per capita, it also has the most bicycle deaths per capita.

5 times as many children die from poisoning than they do by gun.

 

[cannabineer]

Life? You didn't mention the one I specifically mentioned.

I didn't think that one needed discussing. It's about context. "Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness" were specifically rights vis-à-vis the state. You're apparently redefining to suit your argument here. How can anyone expect the state to secure their life against a nonuniformed criminal? cn

 

[kpmarine]

Except anyone who wants to carry has to pass a written test that asks questions about exactly those things you are worried about. Anyone that wants to carry in a whole lotta states MUST pass a actual test where you have to prove your proficiency with the gun you plan to use.

Everyone with a CCW has been trained in the responsible use of their weapon, you can't get a CCW without proving such.

For some reason you people who are totally ignorant on the subject speak as if you know something about it, but you speak from ignorance. You cannot just walk down to the gun shop, buy a handgun, stick it in your pants and be all legal.

You mean in one single state? We are talking about FEDERAL laws here, your state laws have NO bearing on the argument at hand.

Then why use it to try and support your argument?

 

[Beefbisquit]

No, you have mental problems. You need to practice more. "la la la. I'm not listening! Guns kill asshole." That arguement is better and quicker.

You didn't responded to ANY of my comments. No response other than an ad hominem attack based on something I didn't even say.

Put words in my mouth, and then attack the words I didn't say. Nice, you're so great at constructing arguments! What mental problems do I have, Dr.?

who says they are tragedies?
it's not a tragedy every time some dumbass dies, it happens thousands of times every day. if every death is a tragedy then you must be exhausted from all the weeping.
the simple and undeniable fact that EVERYBODY DIES is not a strawman, nor is the simple fact that SAFETY IS AN ILLUSION.

Who said it was a tragedy any time anyone dies? You want to put words in my mouth too, asshole? Everyone dies, but everyone is not murdered. The fact that you're falling back on the premise that "Everyone dies, so gun deaths are ok" is probably one of the stupidest, and poorly constructed arguments I've ever heard. Comparing murder and dying from natural causes, is completely pointless, and you should know that if you have a shred of intelligence.

what IS a strawman is "the USA has by far the most guns, and by far the most firearm related murders of any developed country" i would argue that theres lotsa nations with more guns per capita than the US, for example, rhodesia, or somalia, or iraq, or afghanistan, or chechnya, and they use them to slaughter each other in a fashion that could only be described as Wholesale. here in the US we have Retail Slaughter, and the press are the ones doing the markup and reaping the profits.

It's not a strawman, it's the actual issue! There are 3rd world nations with more guns per capita than the USA, and those places have atrocious standards of living. You want to plummet the USA into the ranks of Iraq or Columbia? Is that what you're suggesting by your comment?

Congratulations the USA is slightly safer than Swaiziland - the AIDS capitol of the world. Roll out the red carpet!

i get it, you have all these raw feelings and they make you want to do something, ANYTHING so you wont have to cry your eyes out every time a baby bird falls from it's nest. but the simple solution is to MAN UP, not try and legislate safety rails on all sparrows nests and lifeguards at every birdbath.

I'm a hunter, I hunt every year. No one is talking about sparrows, we're talking about humans. No I don;t think we should put nets on all the sparrows nests, yes I do think guns should be required to have trigger locks at all times when not in use. Yes, I think ammo should be stored in a separate, locked, container. Yes, I think CCW permits should require an extensive course, that requires updating on a yearly or bi-annually cycle. Yes, I think if you want to own a deadly weapon you should know how to use it safely, and properly.

you cannot protect everyone, and you especially cannot protect fools from themselves, lord knows we keep trying to protect you from the desirte to surrender al your rights because BHO says youll be safer that way.

I'm not interested in protecting fools from themselves, I'm interested in protecting myself from idiot gun owners that have no business owning a gun they have no idea how to use. I don't trust you idiots with safety scissors, let alone a CCW .500SW you want to use in a public place.

if you really want to eliminate guns, eliminate YOUR guns, and then hang out a sign that reads: Gun Free Home, Passive Resistance Only. that way youll be the only one to suffer for your folly.

Nope, my guns are stored in a safe, with trigger locks. Combination locks on both. I'm responsible with my firearms, and I don't need a gun to make me feel like I have a set of balls.

That only follows logic, we have the most cars too, and guess what? The most car related deaths. Did you know that the Netherlands has the most bikes per capita, it also has the most bicycle deaths per capita.

5 times as many children die from poisoning than they do by gun.

USA car deaths are similar to other developed nations, per capita.

USA gun deaths are not even remotely similar to other developed nations, per capita.

Here in lies the problem, why does the USA have so many gun murders per year compared to every other developed nation? Someone please answer this question! I don't give a shit if the USA has less deaths than some African and South American countries.

I didn't think that one needed discussing. It's about context. "Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness" were specifically rights vis-à-vis the state. You're apparently redefining to suit your argument here. How can anyone expect the state to secure their life against a nonuniformed criminal? cn

There is a reasonable expectation to life, if you are breaking the law in a way that undermines someone else's life, you might be arrested or killed. If I'm walking down the street and catch a bullet from a citizen shooting at someone who stole their wallet, I'd say that's not exactly fair, wouldn't you? Is your wallet worth my life?

If you heathens (not you bear) would actually listen to what people are saying instead of assuming everyone wants your "precious guns" maybe some progress would get made instead of the continual "stick head up ass, and ignore everything", argument I've been hearing.

 

[Dr Kynes]

You cannot just walk down to the gun shop, buy a handgun, stick it in your pants and be all legal.

uhh yeah you can.

any law that is contradicted by the constitution is invalid.
for nearly 150 years in america, a gentleman about town was not properly dressed without his pistol, and for centuries before that a sword or dagger (or both) was a mandatory part of formal wear, and an expected part of every gentleman's everyday accoutrement.

of course in europe the privilege of being armed was reserved to the nobility, gentry and their yeomen, but every peasant in town packed a knife at the very least. were times safer or more hazardous in the middle ages or the renaissance? presuming you lived in paris london or some other urban center... not the outer marches of a dying empire. in that case of course you packed anything you could get and were damned glad to have it.

before the brevity police start whining, TL;DR, ill sum up.

no VALID law in the US prevents you from carrying arms, whether concealed or borne openly. further, no VALID law in the US may even exist regarding what, how or where you pack whatever implements of mayhem you so desire.

cops and lawyers take a different view, but uniforms and law degrees dont make them right, it just makes them THINK they are right.

 

[Beefbisquit]

Let's pretend you're in a bank and every single person in the bank has a CCW permit.

A robber comes in with a gun, and pulls it only to have 10 bullets in his body, how many CCW holders miss? How many CCW holders have pass through shots? How many CCW holders panic and shoot blindly? Ever been in a live fire exercise? It's fucking nerve racking when you're trained for it, let alone when you take a 20 min online, or 2 hour minor safety course to get your CCW every 5 years.

I'm tickled you think everyone is so capable with a firearm, but they're not and most people would do more damage than good in a public setting with a gun.

 

[NoDrama]

Let's pretend you're in a bank and every single person in the bank has a CCW permit.

A robber comes in with a gun, and pulls it only to have 10 bullets in his body, how many CCW holders miss? How many CCW holders have pass through shots? How many CCW holders panic and shoot blindly? Ever been in a live fire exercise? It's fucking nerve racking when you're trained for it, let alone when you take a 20 min online, or 2 hour minor safety course to get your CCW every 5 years.

I'm tickled you think everyone is so capable with a firearm, but they're not and most people would do more damage than good in a public setting with a gun.

I understand what you are saying, but what if scenarios are just that, what if. None of what you say may ever happen, ever, or it might happen 5000 times per day. You cannot make laws concerning what if scenarios. What if president Obama decides to go all tyrannical and declares USA a war zone and has Congress murdered? What if a CCW holder shoots and misses his target, rupturing a gas main and blowing through a electrical transformer at the same time, causing a huge explosion and setting off a chain reaction which destroys half the east coast. What if...... Do you really think we should make laws based on hypothetical situations?


What if ever CCW holder stops a million deaths from happening, and doesn't even have to shoot? Just brandishes the weapon and the bad guy gives up?

I don't know a single CCW holder who hasn't got a clue how to aim and fire their firearm, everyone knows what the trigger is, which way the muzzle is pointed etc etc etc, and they never forget these things even after years and years.

 

[Beefbisquit]

I understand what you are saying, but what if scenarios are just that, what if. None of what you say may ever happen, ever, or it might happen 5000 times per day. You cannot make laws concerning what if scenarios. What if president Obama decides to go all tyrannical and declares USA a war zone and has Congress murdered? What if a CCW holder shoots and misses his target, rupturing a gas main and blowing through a electrical transformer at the same time, causing a huge explosion and setting off a chain reaction which destroys half the east coast. What if...... Do you really think we should make laws based on hypothetical situations?


What if ever CCW holder stops a million deaths from happening, and doesn't even have to shoot? Just brandishes the weapon and the bad guy gives up?

I don't know a single CCW holder who hasn't got a clue how to aim and fire their firearm, everyone knows what the trigger is, which way the muzzle is pointed etc etc etc, and they never forget these things even after years and years.

We base TONS of laws on "what if"....


I know people that can drive drunk just fine, but the government (and me too) says that driving drunk is more likely to cause death than driving sober. This is a prime example of 'what if' laws. You are forbidden from driving drunk based on a 'what if' situation. Your right to want to be drunk, is not on par with my right to not be killed.

Why aren't people allowed to own bomb making equipment? That's another 'what if' law.

Why can't people do 100mph on the highway? If you lose control at 100mph you're much more likely to harm yourself or others. Another 'what if' law....

We have laws based on reasonable expectations of safety. CCW permit holders don't focus on what's behind them in a panic situation, and to my knowledge there are no rules governing what types of ammo and caliber should be used in CCW permit holders weapons.

What YOU are doing, is picking the most outlandish scenarios and somehow trying to compare them to events that have a good chance of happening. You 'feeling' safe, has no right to encroach on my actual safety.

I'm not saying that you don't have the right to carry a firearm, but you should be at least as proficient as the police who also carry a firearm in public. You should be trained in threat detection, and appropriate reactions to different situations. Knowing which way to point the gun is simple, it's knowing how to not kill innocent people while attempting to defend yourself that's the problem.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Who said it was a tragedy any time anyone dies? You want to put words in my mouth too, asshole? Everyone dies, but everyone is not murdered. The fact that you're falling back on the premise that "Everyone dies, so gun deaths are ok" is probably one of the stupidest, and poorly constructed arguments I've ever heard. Comparing murder and dying from natural causes, is completely pointless, and you should know that if you have a shred of intelligence.

you declared all those deaths i listed, even getting struck by a meteorite as "tragedies". i propose being struck by a meteorite would fall under the heading of Comedy. but thats theoretical since to date NOBODY has ever been killed by a meteorite strike.

It's not a strawman, it's the actual issue! There are 3rd world nations with more guns per capita than the USA, and those places have atrocious standards of living. You want to plummet the USA into the ranks of Iraq or Columbia? Is that what you're suggesting by your comment?

hmm switzerland has more guns per capita than the US... how many swiss people get murdered by "guns"? ohh wait thats right, if you murder somebody in switzerland, regardless of the implement used YOU get charged, not the weapon. amazing. perhaps we should have offending guns stoned to death in the village square? maybe we could use the malleus maleficarum's tools and techniques to determine which guns are possessed by evil spirits and satan? we could throw all our guns into a smelter, and the ones that dont melt are the possessed MURDERGUNS! brilliant!

Congratulations the USA is slightly safer than Swaiziland - the AIDS capitol of the world. Roll out the red carpet!

so guns are a viral pathogen? also if you read the WHO whitepapers on "Aids in Africa" you woulod know that "AIDS" is the catch-all diagnosis used by village witch doctors when somebody dies from anything other than the easilly recognized causes.
african death certificates pretty much have options, and the witch doctor checks one (or sometimes both)

Cause of Death:
[ ] Eaten By A Lion
[ ] Aids
X_____________________________ (witchdoctor's signature or mark)

I'm not interested in protecting fools from themselves, I'm interested in protecting myself from idiot gun owners that have no business owning a gun they have no idea how to use. I don't trust you idiots with safety scissors, let alone a CCW .500SW you want to use in a public place.

and you have set yourself up as the arbiter of who does or does not deserve to own weaponry, and what kinds those privileged few may own, as well as how they must keep them, for YOUR safety.

Nope, my guns are stored in a safe, with trigger locks. Combination locks on both. I'm responsible with my firearms, and I don't need a gun to make me feel like I have a set of balls.

my guns too are stored in a manner which is safe (never accidentally shot nobody) legal (no controlling legal authority) and responsible (i NEVER let them roam the streets unaccompanied) , so there. Neener neener neener.

USA car deaths are similar to other developed nations, per capita.

the death of any car is a tragedy, especially if it's a classic.

USA gun deaths are not even remotely similar to other developed nations, per capita.

and in england more people die from getting stabbed per capita than they do in america you may note i did not blame the knife for the criminal's actions. see objects have never murdered anyone in the entirety of history. not even once.

Here in lies the problem, why does the USA have so many gun murders per year compared to every other developed nation? Someone please answer this question! I don't give a shit if the USA has less deaths than some African and South American countries.

because america has so many murders every year, and guns are just one of the better ways to murder. we also have more heavy sack beatings, more stabbings, more bludgeonings (with a rigid object rather than a flexible one, there is a difference) more arrow shootings, more deliberate automotive homicides (as opposed to accidents) more suicides, more bear maulings, more mountain lion eatings, more rattlesnake bites, more pit bull maulings, and more shitty interweb opinions than any other country in the world.

every death with a gun nearby is not a murder, every death where a gun was the weapon used is not a murder, and every person who owns a gun is not a murderer waiting for his turn to MDK some helpless stranger for the thrill.

There is a reasonable expectation to life,

no there is not.

if you are breaking the law in a way that undermines someone else's life, you might be arrested or killed. If I'm walking down the street and catch a bullet from a citizen shooting at someone who stole their wallet, I'd say that's not exactly fair, wouldn't you? Is your wallet worth my life?

the odds of a random stranger catching a bullet from a self defense use of a firearm is so rare as to be unheard of. it has never happened. COPS have sent stray bullets into nearby passing kids, and they are indemnified against personal lawsuits, we have accountability. nobody ever promised you life would be fair, or just or equitable. if they did, you may have a cause for legal action against THAT GUY, but not every gun owner who you fear MIGHT injure you with their gun.

If you heathens (not you bear) would actually listen to what people are saying instead of assuming everyone wants your "precious guns" maybe some progress would get made instead of the continual "stick head up ass, and ignore everything", argument I've been hearing.

what you are saying is not so new and exciting, we have all heard these impassioned emotional pleas before, demanding "reasonable steps" be taken to ensure everybody's saftey against even the least likely eventuality. i for one am tired of it. if you dont want anyone to have guns, use "Virtuous Persuasion" and surrender yours first.
perhaps you're the leader we have been waiting for, to guide us to the promised land where nobody ever gets angry, and even if they did, everybody wears 16oz sparring mitts 24/7. for safety.

 

[Doer]

Are you comparing storing massive amounts currency and teaching children?

No, I think we are comparing Treasure to Life. And we are wondering which is better for kids. Realism or some fantasy about a peaceful world?