Dyna-Gro, Liquid Gro vs. Dyna-Gro Foliage pro

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
Well although I recognize you are very knowledgeable I do disagree. I also have read homebrewers posts and he has to use additives to make up for dyna grows short comings.
The usual routine is to blend the bloom and grow as the bloom is super high in phosphorous (not needed so much in hydro) then one must add
the protect to try and bring up the k and to battle the lower mag people add the mag pro which tends to make the high k problem worse. All this and
there still stuck with 30 percent of nitrogen in amoniacal form. Sure homebrewer uses it sure it works. Is it a true hydro nute ...no not even close.
With that being said most of the companies selling nutes at hydro stores are just re bottling existing nutrients for tomatoes etc..although they do
add the fancy art work so the kids think there getting something special. Show me a large scale commercial Hydro operation tomatoe, vegetable etc that uses Dyna Grow. In fact most blend there own to obtain a proper formula and none use a high amoniacal nitrogen source. P.S I played with using Dyna grow and
jacks back in the 80s
DG has been around for over 30 years and made one of the original hydroponic plant foods. They offer a variety of base nutrients depending on your approach to this hobby, each supplies all 16 essential elements and they're all pH stable, what else are you looking for in a hydroponic food (rhetorical question)?

In regards to your other statements, well, we're all entitled to an opinion.
 

thecoolman

New Member

Have you ever noticed the ratios peters, jacks, plantex and
other large scale professional companies use in there hydro specific formulas as compared to there 100 other formulas
its always much higher K than P.
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member

Have you ever noticed the ratios peters, jacks, plantex and
other large scale professional companies use in there hydro specific formulas as compared to there 100 other formulas
its always much higher K than P.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]DG offers a higher K, lower P formula too and you can buy it in 55 gallon drums if needed. [/FONT]
 

thecoolman

New Member
Actually the only ones i see on there sight are these
Complete Plant Nutrients
Grow 7-9-5 General Purpose Formula
Bloom 3-12-6 Blooming Formula
Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 Tropical Foliage Formula
All-Pro 7-7-7 All-Purpose Formula
Hi-N-Pro 10-5-5 High Nitrogen Formula for Vigorous Growt
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
Actually the only ones i see on there sight are these
Complete Plant Nutrients
Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 Tropical Foliage Formula
Foliage pro is the higher K, lower P formula i'm talking about. In regards to 'hydro foods' supplying what I'd call excessive K, I've never really understood that approach. Once a plant's elemental needs are met, supplying more of any of the said elements will not result in more growth. K has a fairly wide range of 'acceptability' in terms of what the plant can get by with so as long as you've met the plant's needs, you're good to go.

I will say this though, I trust a company like JR Peters and would be interested in trying their 5-12-26 hydro food. You do know that it's supposed to be used with their 15-0-0 calcium nitrate product, right? That would bring things into balance, IMO.
 

thecoolman

New Member
Foliage pro is the higher K, lower P formula i'm talking about. In regards to 'hydro foods' supplying what I'd call excessive K, I've never really understood that approach. Once a plant's elemental needs are met, supplying more of any of the said elements will not result in more growth. K has a fairly wide range of 'acceptability' in terms of what the plant can get by with so as long as you've met the plant's needs, you're good to go.

I will say this though, I trust a company like JR Peters and would be interested in trying their 5-12-26 hydro food. You do know that it's supposed to be used with their 15-0-0 calcium nitrate product, right? That would bring things into balance, IMO.
I have used the foilage pro its very high in N.
I now use the 5-12-26 its good stuff with the max 1-1 calcium nitrate ratio (to make it easy peters recomends less cal nitrate in there profesional hydro-sol) you end up with a 20-12-26 pretty high k to p ratio for bloom I know..
It is very close to the peters hydro-sol and plantex tomatoe formula except it has lots of magnesium included for people like me that dont want to add it.
The professional agricultural industry these days has moved to a much lower p and higher k in hydro these days than what we (mature growers) are used to.
This i believe is partly due to tissue samples and yields showing the need for high K ratios in almost all hydro crops. From what I see tomato farmers use at least twice the k as p and vegetable and commercial
herb farmers even a higher K ratio than that also the k is usually higher than the N. The tissue samples I believe usually show the need for k the highest and roughly about 4 times higher than P.
I also found it interesting to look at the plantex commercial hydro ratios.

Check out these university recommendations.. but remember only half the fertilizers p shows up as usable P in the ppm and 85 percent of the k but 100 percent of the N...I believe http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/cv216
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
I have used the foilage pro its very high in N.
I now use the 5-12-26 its good stuff with the max 1-1 calcium nitrate ratio (to make it easy peters recomends less cal nitrate in there profesional hydro-sol) you end up with a 20-12-26 pretty high k to p ratio for bloom I know..
It is very close to the peters hydro-sol and plantex tomatoe formula except it has lots of magnesium included for people like me that dont want to add it.
The professional agricultural industry these days has moved to a much lower p and higher k in hydro these days than what we (mature growers) are used to.
This i believe is partly due to tissue samples and yields showing the need for high K ratios in almost all hydro crops. From what I see tomato farmers use at least twice the k as p and vegetable and commercial
herb farmers even a higher K ratio than that also the k is usually higher than the N. The tissue samples I believe usually show the need for k the highest and roughly about 4 times higher than P.
I also found it interesting to look at the plantex commercial hydro ratios.

Check out these university recommendations.. but remember only half the fertilizers p shows up as usable P in the ppm and 85 percent of the k but 100 percent of the N...I believe http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/cv216
Great link. I need to call them up and ask why K is so dominant while N is so "recessive" regarding plant uptake in water culture.

Dyna-Gro is basically a hydro food and they go totally against this high K hydro food formula.

Whole thing just doesn't make sense to me.
 

thecoolman

New Member
I dont believe there is any large agricultural operation running dyna-grow in there hydro operation any place in the US or world for that matter.
You did know hydro foods don't have 30 percent of there N in ammonium form like dyna grow. It is not designed for hydro.
you should call Plantex as well they provide a hell of a lot more to commercial hydro farmers and maybe all farmers than dyna grow
and there hydro formulas are high k. http://www.plantprod.com/plantex/ProductCategoryList.aspx?search=hydroponic&op
t=true&IsSearch=true&IsPortal=false



http://www.plantprod.com/plantex/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=1696&CatID=5
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
I dont believe there is any large agricultural operation running dyna-grow in there hydro operation any place in the US or world for that matter.
You did know hydro foods don't have 30 percent of there N in ammonium form like dyna grow. It is not designed for hydro.
you should call Plantex as well they provide a hell of a lot more to commercial hydro farmers and maybe all farmers than dyna grow
and there hydro formulas are high k. http://www.plantprod.com/plantex/ProductCategoryList.aspx?search=hydroponic&op
t=true&IsSearch=true&IsPortal=false



http://www.plantprod.com/plantex/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=1696&CatID=5
Interesting tests at the site - http://www.dyna-gro.com/ Look under "Dyna-Gro Advantage" and click on the N.H.G.C. test results of the Grow.

If you know the science behind why many manufacturers have K higher than N for foliage production let me know. I've often wondered why and have posted this question many time in many forums. I assume that under hydro conditions, the N is not readily available? I don't do hydro so it really doesn't concern, just want to talk to a tech out of curiousity.


I buy Plantex foods by the 50 lb. bag for commercial irrigation injection.

Who is your vendor source for Plantex and what are you buying, or was that a rhetorical statement?

UB
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
I dont believe there is any large agricultural operation running dyna-grow in there hydro operation any place in the US or world for that matter.
You did know hydro foods don't have 30 percent of there N in ammonium form like dyna grow. It is not designed for hydro.
you should call Plantex as well they provide a hell of a lot more to commercial hydro farmers and maybe all farmers than dyna grow
and there hydro formulas are high k. http://www.plantprod.com/plantex/ProductCategoryList.aspx?search=hydroponic&op
t=true&IsSearch=true&IsPortal=false



http://www.plantprod.com/plantex/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=1696&CatID=5
'Hydro foods' heavily weighted in nitrate are not pH stable and growers will constantly battle an ever-rising pH.


Plants take up ammonium and other positively charged cations by releasing one hydrogen ion (H+) into the medium solution for each ammonium ion absorbed. Over time,ammoniacal nitrogen uptake increases hydrogen ion concentration thereby lowering thegrowing medium pH.

The uptake of negatively charged anions such as nitrate is most often accomplished by releasing hydroxide ions (OH -). In the medium solution, hydroxide and hydrogen ions combine to form water (H2O). Over time the reaction of hydroxide and hydrogen ions decreases hydrogen ion concentration and increases the medium pH.


http://www.greenhouse.cornell.edu/crops/factsheets/nitrogen_form.pdf


I find it odd that you don't think DG wasn't 'designed' for hydro as I haven't bought pH up or down in over 30 months. Would you say 'General Hydroponics' makes food designed for hydro? If it is, you can have the six gallons that are collecting dust next to my DG bottles.



 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
'Hydro foods' heavily weighted in nitrate are not pH stable and growers will constantly battle an ever-rising pH.

The same can be said for using ferts heavily weighted in Ammonia in Hydro, except that pH goes the other way. I have found the nitrate\Ammonia balance in dynagrow to be easy to manage, and keep Calcium Nitrate on hand for when I need some more N. As a small grower works for me because of size and convenience. I most certainly don't need 50 lbs of dry mix hydro ferts on hand.
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
@HB Since the amount of Ammoniacal N supply is significant with Dyna, the N is not being processed very efficiently if at all because you lack the bacteria required for nitrification. Tap water is not a bacterial source because the water is chlorinated or sanitized by other means.

As your Cornell reference states, bacteria is needed for nitrification.
What your forgetting is that plants uptake ammonia directly. Read the Cornell reference carefully, its actually talking about direct uptake of ammonia. That is not to say that in a soil like media that can support nitrifying bacteria is not benneficial, it is. In soil one can apply largee doses of Urea or Ammnoia without the danger of toxicity, because of the nitrobacters.

The balance of Ammonium to Nitrates is important in hydroponics, as too much of either can lead to ph swings. Ammonia is absorbed rapidly and excess amounts in hydro can be toxic.


Look at the section for hydro it says almost the same thing as the cornell paper.
http://www.kno3.org/en/product-features-a-benefits/nitrate-no3-versus-ammonium-nh4
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
What your forgetting is that plants uptake ammonia directly. Read the Cornell reference carefully, its actually talking about direct uptake of ammonia. That is not to say that in a soil like media that can support nitrifying bacteria is not benneficial, it is. In soil one can apply largee doses of Urea or Ammnoia without the danger of toxicity, because of the nitrobacters.

The balance of Ammonium to Nitrates is important in hydroponics, as too much of either can lead to ph swings. Ammonia is absorbed rapidly and excess amounts in hydro can be toxic.


Look at the section for hydro it says almost the same thing as the cornell paper.
http://www.kno3.org/en/product-features-a-benefits/nitrate-no3-versus-ammonium-nh4
Wow, what an excellent read. This site needs more of this kind of reading material.

Thanks for sharing.....
 

patlpp

New Member
Wow @purplebuz I deleted the original post for a major edit but you grabbed it too quick. I will repost the original for clarity:


@HB I read your journals and in no way would argue with your results. However, what is consistent in your hydro grows is your observation of the need for more N when using Dyna with rockwool. My theory, backed up with some experience is this: Since the amount of Ammoniacal N supply is significant with Dyna, the N is not being processed very efficiently if at all because you lack the bacteria required for nitrification. Tap water is not a bacterial source because the water is chlorinated or sanitized by other means. Your rockwool is clean as are your nutrients, so how do you obtain these bacteria? You correct the problem by adding a more concentrated nitrate N (Grow) eventually reaching the desired result. So in effect, instead of a say 1-2-2 feed , you were actually getting a .6 -2-2 feed because the ammoniacal nitrogen was kept dormant. FYI coco and pro-mix/peat has very low of these bacteria also. As a remedy, any organic solution with composted poop introduced periodically would provide an ample supply these bacteria. I had almost identical symptoms as you did but instead of adding more N, I added some Botanicare Original Compost Solution just once and I was fine. (Fatman recommendation BTW)


As your Cornell reference states, bacteria is needed for nitrification. It also states that small grows are where you see more dramatic PH swings and that they are much more subtle in large greenhouse environments. In any case, I believe most greenhouses run drain-to-waste anyways so recirculating ph issues are moot in that scenario.


Reading @thecoolmans Plantex website, they stated that they use 100% nitrate N as a base in hydro and then use ammoniacal N as desired. I can see where a greenhouse say in Florida would shy away from Ammoniacal N because at lower temps, ammoniacal N is much less efficient so more auxiliary heating would be required. I experienced that with a bout of Ammoniacal toxicity when my temps were low to begin with but I was also growing in air-pots which exacerbated the situation of too low average temps in the medium.

I find it odd that you don't think DG wasn't 'designed' for hydro as I haven't bought pH up or down in over 30 months. Would you say 'General Hydroponics' makes food designed for hydro? If it is, you can have the six gallons that are collecting dust next to my DG bottles.
I don't think @coolman was being combative nor am I. He was just pointing out that in his view, formulas with high ratios of ammoniacal N is "odd" in a large scale commercial environment and he supplied supportive references supporting that with planex and the Florida University tables.
What would be interesting is to find out what other pro hydro ops use in inert medium grows and try to reach a general consensus. Much more reading ahead...........
BTW - Yes, excellent read you provided.
 

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
I use Foliage Pro. It like it. I use as little as 1 ml/gal and as high as 5 ml/gal. I use a little GROW as well.. depending on the plants needs. I also had success with nothing but GROW 7-9-5 all the way through flower. It depends on the plant, what I have on hand and what my retail shop can get in for me.
 

thecoolman

New Member
Interesting tests at the site - http://www.dyna-gro.com/ Look under "Dyna-Gro Advantage" and click on the N.H.G.C. test results of the Grow.

If you know the science behind why many manufacturers have K higher than N for foliage production let me know. I've often wondered why and have posted this question many time in many forums. I assume that under hydro conditions, the N is not readily available? I don't do hydro so it really doesn't concern, just want to talk to a tech out of curiousity.


I buy Plantex foods by the 50 lb. bag for commercial irrigation injection.

Who is your vendor source for Plantex and what are you buying, or was that a rhetorical statement?

UB
STEINER (Many articles) recommended high k and ionic balanced formulas. Much comes from the tomato industry as tomatoes need more k than
N. Tissue analyses usuallyshows the need for a very minimum of 1 to 1 in most plants and usually much more k in a fruiting plant.
I have sourced plantex and peters hydro formulas from Griffins Green House supply in the past. I like that the Jacks does have a lot more
magnesium than others including the nearly identical old peters Hydro-Sol but you should be aware of the cal-mag ratios if you cut back on the N a lot in bloom.
I have also sourced it from local nurseries and had it ordered in years ago.

 

thecoolman

New Member
'Hydro foods' heavily weighted in nitrate are not pH stable and growers will constantly battle an ever-rising pH.




http://www.greenhouse.cornell.edu/crops/factsheets/nitrogen_form.pdf


I find it odd that you don't think DG wasn't 'designed' for hydro as I haven't bought pH up or down in over 30 months. Would you say 'General Hydroponics' makes food designed for hydro? If it is, you can have the six gallons that are collecting dust next to my DG bottles.



I dont use much ph up or down either and I run 3 180 gallon tanks in a drain to waste auto spray perlite setup (I pay 6.50 a bag! 4 cubic feet)
but without automatic nutrient injectors. 30 percent ammonium nitrate is excessive for hydro and not good for there already low cal mag either.
some 5-10 possibly 15 percent is ok for ph. Many crops would not like more than that in Hydro.

It depends on which GH formula your talking about but the flora nova has a much better cal mag level than any dyna grow.
4%cal 1.5% mag compared to the hydro weak formula of 2%cal-.5% mag of the dyna grow hence your need to add and blend so many
products to the nutrient formula you call complete. How many things do you use in your grows?.. quite a few if my memory of your
runs is correct with your so called complete formula. potasium silicate and mag pro come to mind as well as blending grow and bloom ratios.
Of course the flora Nova has a better N-k ratio that more closely resembles most commercial agriculture formulations as well.
Of course Dyna grow initially gives a major change to ph when added to the tank unlike say Ionic
but I usually don't like to pay for water (Ionic).
 
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