IRS gave extra scrutiny to liberal groups as well

[cannabineer]

Including austerity.

Dissenting opinion. cn

 

[abandonconflict]

Dissenting opinion. cn

The word 'reasonable' creates said parameters, so I suppose austerity is not included.

 

[cannabineer]

^^^Awesome post^^^^ This is actually where my mind is these days. "Efforts to build utopia by external control of our behaviors will be as hard and as productive as building sand castles in the tidal zone." That is beautiful! You are correct. I think there will one day be an integration of the biological and the technological. I would have to say that I hope I am alive to see that day. In some ways it rubs me against the grain but I am running out of hope.

Assuming we don't run into a collapse-of-Rome scenario (and a part of me fears we're in a sort of replay of the third century) I would have to give it a few centuries. We're pretty much past the heyday of the 18th through mid-20th centuries, where one very bright, somewhat affluent individual can discover Big Stuff. The advancement of these sciences and technologies has passed into organizations rich, deep and strong enough to carry programs like Apollo and the discovery of anti-Aids drugs. I see the cost and difficulty trend only going up, and I only hope that we have enough continuity of civilization (and for better or for worse, the monied dynasties pulling its strings) to
a) get a real presence into outer space, and
b) continue the research not only into the genome, but the varied epigenomes we're just beginning to learn are very, very important.
(I've written some sci-fi shorts built on this premise.)
Thus spake cn

 

[Dr Kynes]

Yes I agree with your points but I need clarification on one thing. Does the expectation of reciprocity only exsist within capitalism? From your statement I come to the conclusion that capitalism is the cause of the expectation of reciprocity.

I don't think apple snatcher and carrot poachers would be the biggest threat in an anarchist society. I would agree with another poster that the threat would be from other outside groups that don't buy the same philosophy.. LOL kinda like what's going on in the world now! Yes this is another flaw on the anarchist movement.

I can't elaborate as well as the rest of you so thank you for being patient with me.

yes, reciprocity is the heart and soul of capitalism

i own myself, and my labour as well as the fruits of that labour and the rewards which it brings.

if i OWN something, it is mine, and as a result i may keep it for myself, share it freely, give it away or sell it for a exorbitant price. it's mine, so it's my choice.

if i do not own a thing, then i have no more right to it, and it's product than any other putz walking by.

lets say i own an apple tree, the apples are mine, and i may put up a sign that says "Take all you want neighbor" or a sign that says "Take One if you wish, but no more" or i could tie a mean ass dog to the tree and keep the apples for myself.

if i do NOT own that tree, and in fact NOBODY owns it, then i have no more and no less right to the apples than anyone else, and without some oversight or administration i could say...

pick the apples and deliver a sack of them to all my neighbors equally
pick all the apples and take them to the next town where they have no apples and sell them
chop the tree down to make sure nobody gets any apples
and nobody can say shit, since i have as much right to harvest, exploit or despoil the tree as anyone.

yay anarchy.

if there is now presumption of ownership then there is no right to control access to the tree, or to defend it against an asshole who mighty cut it down just to be a dick. liklewise without ownership there is no stewardship, so an apple tre owned by me will be healthy, well watered fertilized pruned thinned and harvested regularly ensuring more apples for me, and also for those with whom i choose to share them, or for those who wish to trade me for some lemons, or for silver or gold. thats how agriculture works.

if you go to a city park and plant a tomato bush, how long do you think it will survive and how many tomatoes will it produce with no-one to care for it, no-one to keep dogs from pissing on it, or to pick off the hornworms, or to water it or to stake it up, or to fertilize it? it will probably be dug up by a raccoon the first night. so much for the "Commons"

the anarcho-agricultural problem is not apple snatchers, or carrot poachers, but simply TAKERS

if i plow a feild, plant it with wheat, water it fertilize it, weed it, and tend it till it's ready to harvest, in your anarcho-society, it's still not mine, and thus any passing chap who wishes can enter the feild and harvest the wheat, taking it with him when he leaves, so i just spend 6 months and a shitload of sweat to grow some feild stubble and i cant even complain since the feild and it's crops were never mine to begin with.

THATS the problem...

and of course The Humungous and his band of raiders and mutants who insist i should "Just Walk Away!" so they can have my gasoline.

 

[SlaveNoMore]

Assuming we don't run into a collapse-of-Rome scenario (and a part of me fears we're in a sort of replay of the third century) I would have to give it a few centuries. We're pretty much past the heyday of the 18th through mid-20th centuries, where one very bright, somewhat affluent individual can discover Big Stuff. The advancement of these sciences and technologies has passed into organizations rich, deep and strong enough to carry programs like Apollo and the discovery of anti-Aids drugs. I see the cost and difficulty trend only going up, and I only hope that we have enough continuity of civilization (and for better or for worse, the monied dynasties pulling its strings) to
a) get a real presence into outer space, and
b) continue the research not only into the genome, but the varied epigenomes we're just beginning to learn are very, very important.
(I've written some sci-fi shorts built on this premise.)
Thus spake cn

It seems like once we gave up on the space program everything began to wither and stagnate. The U.S. seemed alive with new technologies, kids wanted to be astronauts, colleges were pumping out scientists and things looked like we were heading in the right direction! I remember being in Florida for a shuttle launch and it was the most amazing thing I have ever scene. The power was incredible. To imagine that there were people on that ship that would soon be in space still gives me chills!! LOL

Would you agree?

 

[ginwilly]

efforts to build utopia by external control of our behaviors will be as hard and as productive as building sand castles in the tidal zone. cn
.

I'm putting this in the book of brilliant bear quotes. I'm gonna make t-shirts, kinda like a far-side thing. The bear-truth is the working title but I'm open to better suggestions.

 

[ginwilly]

Alright, but your entire initial rant is fallacious and now that you have abandoned it, you're asking me a question.

It was Proudhon. That was who I was talking about then but that was a different debate than today.

Syndicalism is what you are asking about today.

I abandoned my initial rant because I gave on up you ever seeing the relationship between austerity measures and central planning. It wasn't because the argument was fallacious, it was because I couldn't nail you down on a position. That's why I asked for influences. I thought maybe i could learn a bit what makes you tick.

 

[abandonconflict]

I think it will be. The engineering of our organisms will soon encounter the singularity*: direct feedback of our awareness on our deeper nature.

Until then, efforts to build utopia by external control of our behaviors will be as hard and as productive as building sand castles in the tidal zone. cn

Also, until then, dystopia becomes reality with little effort.

 

[abandonconflict]

I abandoned my initial rant because I gave on up you ever seeing the relationship between austerity measures and central planning. It wasn't because the argument was fallacious, it was because I couldn't nail you down on a position. That's why I asked for influences. I thought maybe i could learn a bit what makes you tick.

Austerity is the worst form of collectivism.

 

[Rak on Tur']

It seems like once we gave up on the space program everything began to wither and stagnate. The U.S. seemed alive with new technologies, kids wanted to be astronauts, colleges were pumping out scientists and things looked like we were heading in the right direction! I remember being in Florida for a shuttle launch and it was the most amazing thing I have ever scene. The power was incredible. To imagine that there were people on that ship that would soon be in space still gives me chills!! LOL

Would you agree?

We don't have the money for that stuff anymore. We spent it all on spreading democracy one bomb at a time, building data centers to store information, and having a bunch of bums with body scanners catch college kids with pot or someone with to much toothpaste before they get on a plane.

Worry not, it's for your safety.

 

[SlaveNoMore]

yes, reciprocity is the heart and soul of capitalism

i own myself, and my labour as well as the fruits of that labour and the rewards which it brings.

if i OWN something, it is mine, and as a result i may keep it for myself, share it freely, give it away or sell it for a exorbitant price. it's mine, so it's my choice.

if i do not own a thing, then i have no more right to it, and it's product than any other putz walking by.

lets say i own an apple tree, the apples are mine, and i may put up a sign that says "Take all you want neighbor" or a sign that says "Take One if you wish, but no more" or i could tie a mean ass dog to the tree and keep the apples for myself.

if i do NOT own that tree, and in fact NOBODY owns it, then i have no more and no less right to the apples than anyone else, and without some oversight or administration i could say...

pick the apples and deliver a sack of them to all my neighbors equally
pick all the apples and take them to the next town where they have no apples and sell them
chop the tree down to make sure nobody gets any apples
and nobody can say shit, since i have as much right to harvest, exploit or despoil the tree as anyone.

yay anarchy.

if there is now presumption of ownership then there is no right to control access to the tree, or to defend it against an asshole who mighty cut it down just to be a dick. liklewise without ownership there is no stewardship, so an apple tre owned by me will be healthy, well watered fertilized pruned thinned and harvested regularly ensuring more apples for me, and also for those with whom i choose to share them, or for those who wish to trade me for some lemons, or for silver or gold. thats how agriculture works.

if you go to a city park and plant a tomato bush, how long do you think it will survive and how many tomatoes will it produce with no-one to care for it, no-one to keep dogs from pissing on it, or to pick off the hornworms, or to water it or to stake it up, or to fertilize it? it will probably be dug up by a raccoon the first night. so much for the "Commons"

the anarcho-agricultural problem is not apple snatchers, or carrot poachers, but simply TAKERS

if i plow a feild, plant it with wheat, water it fertilize it, weed it, and tend it till it's ready to harvest, in your anarcho-society, it's still not mine, and thus any passing chap who wishes can enter the feild and harvest the wheat, taking it with him when he leaves, so i just spend 6 months and a shitload of sweat to grow some feild stubble and i cant even complain since the feild and it's crops were never mine to begin with.

THATS the problem...

and of course The Humungous and his band of raiders and mutants who insist i should "Just Walk Away!" so they can have my gasoline.

LOL, ok I have to walk away from this one. I think I have a different scenario in my head than you have. I don't disagree with you entirely.

I enjoy reading your posts and even if I don't agree with you I like how gifted of a writer you are. I admire your ability to express your thoughts so clearly. I hope we can share a spliff one day.

 

[ginwilly]

Austerity is the worst form of collectivism.

Stimulus is the worst form of collectivism.

 

[cannabineer]

Also, until then, dystopia becomes reality with little effort.

Yes. That is the current agony of being human and not a hermit. cn

 

[SlaveNoMore]

Also, until then, dystopia becomes reality with little effort.

Are you saying that if we give up on trying to improve ourselves while waiting for a microchip we are being lazy. If so, that is a good point and I didn't think about that. If not, school me.

 

[abandonconflict]

Are you saying that if we give up on trying to improve ourselves while waiting for a microchip we are being lazy. If so, that is a good point and I didn't think about that. If not, school me.

This is a time like no other. The internet is changing everything. It has the power to take the sum of all collected human knowledge and make it available to all. There is no turning back. People are waking up to what is possible.

 

[cannabineer]

It seems like once we gave up on the space program everything began to wither and stagnate. The U.S. seemed alive with new technologies, kids wanted to be astronauts, colleges were pumping out scientists and things looked like we were heading in the right direction! I remember being in Florida for a shuttle launch and it was the most amazing thing I have ever scene. The power was incredible. To imagine that there were people on that ship that would soon be in space still gives me chills!! LOL

Would you agree?

I am powerfully ambivalent about this.
On the one hand, I do think that the battle for progress was fought and lost, but on frontlines still not made public.
On the other, chemical propulsion is enough to get us to Luna and return, but not much more than that except for robots with their minimal support needs.
I would like to believe that if we'd stayed the course, we'd be a lot closer to the two enabling technologies:
a) an environmentally-sound way into and out of orbit for real tonnage (we have an unsound one in the bag. Heard of nuclear pulse propulsion?)
b) a way to build and brake from enough delta-vee to give us the asteroids and outer planetary systems.

Someone (with the influence to make it stick) decided it wasn't worth it. I see our society, our very values turning inward. I worry that this is prima facie evidence of decadence. I grow old, and I lose the hope of my youth in the Space Age and the Bright Future it heralded. cn

 

[UncleBuck]

Stimulus is the worst form of collectivism.

so i take it you sent back your tax breaks then, and are making sure not to drive in any of those added lanes on the highway then.

i bet you even make sure to idle your car for a few minutes in the driveway when you get home to make sure that you're not gaining any benefit from the improved traffic flow, either.

you saint. ayn rand would be proud.

 

[tokeprep]

LOL, ok I have to walk away from this one. I think I have a different scenario in my head than you have. I don't disagree with you entirely.

I enjoy reading your posts and even if I don't agree with you I like how gifted of a writer you are. I admire your ability to express your thoughts so clearly. I hope we can share a spliff one day.

Is your scenario that people won't be selfish because logically and rationally it's not in their collective interest to be selfish? Or something else?

 

[tokeprep]

This is a time like no other. The internet is changing everything. It has the power to take the sum of all collected human knowledge and make it available to all. There is no turning back. People are waking up to what is possible.

The fact that all of human knowledge is easily available to everyone doesn't mean that people are waking up to anything. People gain nothing from availability if they choose to watch porn, laugh at cat videos on Youtube, tweet pictures of what they ate for lunch, and waste hours looking at pictures on Facebook. However you measure, isn't that humanity's average choice?

Most people are too materially comfortable to care about advancing themselves: they want to consume and be entertained, not to build anything, and certainly not to advance human civilization.

 

[abandonconflict]

The fact that all of human knowledge is easily available to everyone doesn't mean that people are waking up to anything. People gain nothing from availability if they choose to watch porn, laugh at cat videos on Youtube, tweet pictures of what they ate for lunch, and waste hours looking at pictures on Facebook. However you measure, isn't that humanity's average choice?

Most people are too materially comfortable to care about advancing themselves: they want to consume and be entertained, not to build anything, and certainly not to advance human civilization.

And yet people are waking up.