Impossible! The deficit is falling as well as unemployment Obama wrecking economy

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
I am telling you why Federal Reserve Notes contain no value as per our discussion by sourcing the code and not the Fed FAQ. I said the Fed FAQ and earlier the Treasury online simply regurgitates the Code and the Court cases are already reflected in these regurgitation's and in the Code. Al fine'.
Court cases are never reflected in the code. Do you see anything about the court cases we already discussed in the code? http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/411. Nothing! Because the code never reflects court cases!

This is so simple to understand and yet you keep repeating that court cases are reflected in the code. They aren't! The code reflects the statutes congress passed; court decisions are entirely separate things--the code isn't edited to incorporate them!

I have shown you the authority for how The Fed redeems these interest carrying, worthless debt notes for labor-backed securities....and court cases that assert this redemption even symbolically to common people trying in earnest to redeem in speci!!!! As per your request. Al fine'.
You have not. Where? You showed neither! I keep begging you to tell me where the code says anything about it and you can't! And for a single court case, and you can't give it!

I claimed the Feds FAQ did not define shit just reflected the code! The Feds FAQ reflects what must remain on deposit in order to circulate Fed Notes figure it out legislator!
The collateralization of the notes is entirely distinct from the question of whether the notes are redeemable for the collateral. Your assertion is that the notes are redeemable for the collateral, which the code doesn't say. You can say the Fed's FAQ question reflects the code all you want, but where's the reflection at? You can't point me to the code that says it because it doesn't exist!

The courts have ruled Fed notes can also serve as lawful money not that they are!
Along with previously issued currency, not the securities you're trying to argue about. Show me in the case where it says anything about those securities! You cannot!

I told you at the very beginning of this discussion that your dictionary definitions were going to get you into trouble. During the Civil War, the United States issued a currency called United States Notes. These were issued until 1971, and then issuance ceased. People who still have these United States Notes can redeem them for Federal Reserve Notes, as per the statute you found on redemption of United States Notes. The secretary then destroys the United States Notes--they don't have any sitting around.

Now, there's also a treasury security called a "note" that's presently issued by the United States treasury (treasury bill = matures in 1 year or less; treasury note = matures in 2-10 years; treasury bond = matures in more than 10 years). They take your money and give you a note for it, paying you interest and principal back. This is not the "United States Note" that was in your old currency redemption statute, it's an entirely different thing. You didn't buy United States Notes from the government and get something back for them; you buy a treasury note from the treasury, handing it $100 in Federal Reserve Notes in exchange for the treasury note, which is later paid back with $100 in Federal Reserve Notes. Of course, you said a note is a note is a note, following your dictionary, so you declared that they were the same thing.

The treasury note that would constitute collateral for Federal Reserve Notes is not a United States Note. United States Notes are indeed lawful money, but treasury notes are not United States Notes.

I can produce trillions of examples of people redeeming Fed Notes for securities look at the defecit, bailouts, subsidies, lack of Federal budgets and the fucked up economy!!!
How is the deficit an example of people redeeming Federal Reserve Notes? The deficit represents money the government borrowed from the existing economy or got from the Fed. You buy treasury securities, you don't redeem your Federal Reserve Notes for them. The redemption provision you cited has absolutely nothing to do with treasury securities.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
Court cases are never reflected in the code. Do you see anything about the court cases we already discussed in the code? http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/411. Nothing! Because the code never reflects court cases!
Oh snap nice link to cornell I like them too, I had to stop reading there though.

I told you in plain english I don't have access to annotated code, neither do you. I asked you to cite them, you did not and I did it for you.

I gave you one earlier you didn't read. It had this line on top:

12 USC 411: Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemptionText contains those laws in effect on May 17, 2013





 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Oh snap nice link to cornell I like them too, I had to stop reading there though.

I told you in plain english I don't have access to annotated code, neither do you. I asked you to cite them, you did not and I did it for you.

I gave you one earlier you didn't read. It had this line on top:

12 USC 411: Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemptionText contains those laws in effect on May 17, 2013
I don't have a subscription to a code annotation (companies sell them for small fortunes), so I couldn't cite one for you, but it would note the cases we discussed and their effect on the statute.

I've read the statute repeatedly. It says nothing about redeeming Federal Reserve Notes for treasury securities; it says Federal Reserve Notes "shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States...or at any Federal Reserve bank." The courts say that means in Federal Reserve Notes. There's nothing in this or any other section that says treasury securities are "lawful money."
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
I know you don't have annotated Code, neither do I that's why I said that.

Read it some more and go to the sections it mentions out of order....it's like a fucked up scavenger hunt. Or don't idrc.

Its the US code not a Dr. Suess book, its hard to read....the Statutes at Large are much harder....

I never said it says "Treasury Securities are lawful money" but it does say what collateral the Fed holds in exchange for Fed Notes.

I did show you the repealed definition.

The Fed is in the business of purchasing marketable government debt issued by the United States Department of the Treasury through the Bureau of the Public Debt. Sounds like securities or treasuries to me. Greenbacks were government debt and United States Notes.

I know that a United States Note is not a Treasury Note persay, I do not have any extra chromosomes.

There is plenty more in Title 12 about lawful money......simply go here http://uscodebeta.house.gov/browse.xhtml and do a phrase search.

You will find Federal Reserve Notes specifically by name and the term lawful money completely independent of each other, separated by operators like "and" and "or".

Look mister I am done playing armchair Economist with ya......Banks sure know this shit and it's time we all did too.....all of our ideologies aside......Take your blinders off and look, don't be jaded just because I am arguing with you about it. You asked for it, said everyone here was refusing to show it... there it is.

Al fine'.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
For shits and giggles and anyone left..............I present to you the Federal Reserve Note's direct competition that some of you may have thought died with the Civil War....notice fractional lending is prohibited by (b)(2):

31 USC 5115: United States currency notesText contains those laws in effect on May 17, 2013From Title 31-MONEY AND FINANCESUBTITLE IV-MONEYCHAPTER 51-COINS AND CURRENCYSUBCHAPTER II-GENERAL AUTHORITY
Jump To:Source Credit

§5115. United States currency notes

(a) The Secretary of the Treasury may issue United States currency notes. The notes-
(1) are payable to bearer; and
(2) shall be in a form and in denominations of at least one dollar that the Secretary prescribes.

(b) The amount of United States currency notes outstanding and in circulation-
(1) may not be more than $300,000,000; and
(2) may not be held or used for a reserve.

(
Pub. L. 97–258, Sept. 13, 1982, 96 Stat. 983.)
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
I know you don't have annotated Code, neither do I that's why I said that.

Read it some more and go to the sections it mentions out of order....it's like a fucked up scavenger hunt. Or don't idrc.

Its the US code not a Dr. Suess book, its hard to read....the Statutes at Large are much harder....
Already done. It doesn't say what you want it to say.

I never said it says "Treasury Securities are lawful money" but it does say what collateral the Fed holds in exchange for Fed Notes.
And if it doesn't say that, then what is your authority for saying this: "What the Fed holds in exchange for FRN's is considered "lawful money.""?

I did show you the repealed definition.

The Fed is in the business of purchasing marketable government debt issued by the United States Department of the Treasury through the Bureau of the Public Debt. Sounds like securities or treasuries to me. Greenbacks were government debt and United States Notes.

I know that a United States Note is not a Treasury Note persay, I do not have any extra chromosomes.

There is plenty more in Title 12 about lawful money......simply go here http://uscodebeta.house.gov/browse.xhtml and do a phrase search.

You will find Federal Reserve Notes specifically by name and the term lawful money completely independent of each other, separated by operators like "and" and "or".
None of which makes your claim true.

Look mister I am done playing armchair Economist with ya......Banks sure know this shit and it's time we all did too.....all of our ideologies aside......Take your blinders off and look, don't be jaded just because I am arguing with you about it. You asked for it, said everyone here was refusing to show it... there it is.

Al fine'.
This isn't economics, it's reading comprehension and understanding how to read statutes. I try to tell you I'm not a lay person to save you the trouble of stumbling through what the law is and you tell me I must be bullshitting!
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
For shits and giggles and anyone left..............I present to you the Federal Reserve Note's direct competition that some of you may have thought died with the Civil War....notice fractional lending is prohibited by (b)(2):

31 USC 5115: United States currency notesText contains those laws in effect on May 17, 2013From Title 31-MONEY AND FINANCESUBTITLE IV-MONEYCHAPTER 51-COINS AND CURRENCYSUBCHAPTER II-GENERAL AUTHORITY
Jump To:Source Credit

§5115. United States currency notes

(a) The Secretary of the Treasury may issue United States currency notes. The notes-
(1) are payable to bearer; and
(2) shall be in a form and in denominations of at least one dollar that the Secretary prescribes.

(b) The amount of United States currency notes outstanding and in circulation-
(1) may not be more than $300,000,000; and
(2) may not be held or used for a reserve.

(
Pub. L. 97–258, Sept. 13, 1982, 96 Stat. 983.)
Why is this relevant to anything?
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
Already done. It doesn't say what you want it to say.
What do I want it to say? All it should have are case notes (annotations) of decisions related to specific sections....maybe an executive order????.......you already said the ones I posted earlier were all that was needed....

Post up the decisions from any case that did not allow redemption by symbolic swap.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
twostrokenut said:
wiki said:
The difference between a United States Note and a Federal Reserve Note is that a United States Note represented a "bill of credit" and was inserted by the Treasury directly into circulation free of interest.



tokeprep said:
But if United States Notes are redeemed, they're destroyed afterward.
twostrokenut said:
United states notes indeed seem to be the "bonds" the Fed buys...........http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/154.asp
They are redeemable, just hard for you and I to do but easy for the Fed.
Notice I did not say the US notes were the same as "treasuries" but what's really the fucking difference one was just issued to the public for circulation.
tokeprep said:
What obligation is removed by swapping pieces of paper? I don't understand why you're trying to distinguish United States Notes when they have the same value as Federal Reserve Notes and are redeemable only for Federal Reserve Notes. There's nothing special about them, other than that they haven't been issued for 40 years.

tokeprep said:
Treasury notes are not United States Notes, which haven't been issued since 1971.
tokeprep said:
I told you at the very beginning of this discussion that your dictionary definitions were going to get you into trouble. During the Civil War, the United States issued a currency called United States Notes. These were issued until 1971, and then issuance ceased. People who still have these United States Notes can redeem them for Federal Reserve Notes, as per the statute you found on redemption of United States Notes. The secretary then destroys the United States Notes--they don't have any sitting around.

You are retarded if you think that I am not the one that introduced The Civil war fundraising into this discussion


tokeperpAlongAssTimeAgo said:
What about the Civil War?
twostrokenut said:
Already been covered.....search Green Backs in this thread....
tokeprep said:
......the "United States Note" that was in your old currency redemption statute

31USC5115 said:
Text contains those laws in effect on May 17, 2013


(a) The Secretary of the Treasury may issue United States currency notes. The notes-
(1) are payable to bearer; and
(2) shall be in a form and in denominations of at least one dollar that the Secretary prescribes.


(b) The amount of United States currency notes outstanding and in circulation-
(1) may not be more than $300,000,000; and
(2) may not be held or used for a reserve.


(
Pub. L. 97–258, Sept. 13, 1982, 96 Stat. 983.)
Revised Section Source (U.S. Code) Source (Statutes at Large)
5115(a) 31:401. R.S. §3571.
5115(b) 31:402. June 20, 1874, ch. 343, §6, 18 Stat. 124; Jan. 14, 1875, ch. 15, §3, 18 Stat. 296.

​
Why is this relevant to anything?
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
What do I want it to say? All it should have are case notes (annotations) of decisions related to specific sections....maybe an executive order????.......you already said the ones I posted earlier were all that was needed....

Post up the decisions from any case that did not allow redemption by symbolic swap.
You told me to look at the code some more. The code says nothing about swapping Federal Reserve Notes for the supposedly underlying collateral. Nothing.

There is no court case about redemption of Federal Reserve Notes for anything other than Federal Reserve Notes. None.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Notice I did not say the US notes were the same as "treasuries" but what's really the fucking difference one was just issued to the public for circulation.
You actually did say that. You said United States Notes "indeed seem to be the "bonds" the Fed buys" based on this, which you linked to: "Treasury bills (T-Bills), notes and bonds are marketable securities the U.S. government sells in order to pay off maturing debt and to raise the cash needed to run the federal government." You then said the Fed could redeem Federal Reserve Notes for United States Notes (based on the same page quoted in the preceding) but that it was harder for individual people to do.

Then we had this claim: "31USC5119 does not say FRN's aren't redeemable only that USN's are removed from circulation when FRN's are redeemed." Followed by this explanation: "I never said you could redeem FRN's directly for red inked USnotes...I said they were redeemable and you said all you get is more FRN's so that means to you they are not......but that is not to say the ones that get swapped out have not had the obligation removed and serve as legal tender just the same as a US note that is still in circulation at least according to the treasury............This is simply a big fancy fucking bullshit lawyer way of saying "we ain't giving you no red ink notes you can make a fortune on but we will redeem them for what is currently circulating and treat them as if they had red ink..."

According to you, when you redeem a Federal Reserve Note and are handed back a Federal Reserve Note, the treasury removes a United States Note from circulation and this effectively removes the obligation underlying the Federal Reserve Note. But 31 USC 5119 says no such thing. This is the text of 31 USC 5119:

The secretary shall redeem any currency described in paragraph 1 [gold certificates, silver certificates, notes under the 1890 act, pre-1927 Federal Reserve Notes, United States currency notes issued from the Civil War until 1971]...and cancel and destroy such currency upon redemption.
Why does it matter that the treasury still has the legal authority to issue United States Notes? None have been issued since 1971. The treasury also has the legal authority to issue a $1 trillion platinum coin. The statute says only $300 million in United States Notes can be outstanding; some portion of that must still be outstanding (mostly in the hands of collectors). Indeed, the treasury actually did store the United States Notes redeemed under 31 USC 5119 for some time because they weren't legally allowed to destroy them, but that requirement was removed, and they destroyed their stocks. Of course, even if there were $300 million in United States Notes floating around, removable from circulation by the treasury at will, there's around $1 trillion in Federal Reserve Notes circulating.

Finally, let's reproduce another gem from this thread, the source of much of your misunderstanding: "You are correct insofar as 31USC5119 provides redeeming old currency.......12USC411 provides redeeming the new currency to the old currency." This is consistent with what you said above, that redeeming your Federal Reserve Notes removes a United States Note from circulation. Of course, the treasury has no United States Notes to hand out to anyone or remove--they're destroyed upon redemption (according to the statute you've repeatedly quoted) and none have been issued since 1971.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Definition of SEEM

1
: to appear to the observation or understanding

2
: to give the impression of being
Isn't that a tragedy? 10 pages of discussion and now we're couching our statements with the dictionary. If you thought United States Notes seemed to be the bonds the Fed purchased, might what seemed to be based on the statute you were interpreting also have been wrong?
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
twostrokenut said:
Notice I did not say the US notes were the same as "treasuries" but what's really the fucking difference one was just issued to the public for circulation.

tokeperp said:
You actually did say that. You said United States Notes "indeed seem to be the "bonds" the Fed buys"
Then I gave you the definition of "seem" which is different than the english word "is".
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
United States Notes aren't really any different than the other notes, bonds and whatever else the fed buys......us notes are what was atrociously decided to be "Constitutional Money" in order to circulate publicly and finance the War. This atrocious decision is why you think FRN's are constitutional simply because they are both paper. One is public debt and one is private credit. Try and keep up this is getting boring.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
the last statute I gave you clearly says us notes are ready for issue right now......right there at the bottom is the authority for this from 1874 and 1875 legislator guy.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
United States Notes aren't really any different than the other notes, bonds and whatever else the fed buys......us notes are what was decided to circulate publicly. Try and keep up this is getting boring.
Except the treasury can only issue $300 million of United States Notes, which is 3% of federal government spending for a single day of the year--assuming no United States Notes remain outstanding from previous issues.
 
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