The good done by religions vs the bad done by religions

[Beefbisquit]

Huh?
Biblical passages?Even at its inception,Christianity entailed much more than Biblical passages. Prima scriptura?
Some of the most respected universities in the world began as Christian institutions.Yale,Harvard.How is that not influential?

How does the founding members of a university belonging to a certain denomination have anything to do with the scientific studies and experimentation done at the university? The scientific method works independent of any religion.

Sounds like a double standard.Christians do good,you say anyone could do it.Christians do bad,and you say only they could do it.

It's not a double standard, it's a serious statement about the very nature of religious conflict. The fact that religious teachings are at their very nature, incompatible with each other. Only the 'word of god' can instill such devotion to killing other humans with such merciless resolve and contempt.

I'd argue power,in all it's guises,is the main reason for war.Religion being only one facet.

Again, the 'word of god' makes people do crazy stuff... What ideologies, other than various religions, make people believe that doing such terrible, terrible things is not only O.K., but 'divine'? What other ideologies can possibly have that kind of 'power'? Claiming to know what the maker of the universe wants people to do is pretty much the ultimate power play, and lets men do the worst things, guilt free.

A touring torture exhibit.How macabre!

It was crazy.... a lot of the pieces were from Italy...

And what of the innocent Cathars?Would you blame the victims?What about denominations that sprang up after and have nothing to do with any horrible acts you've mentioned?Are they the proverbial baby,being thrown out with the bathwater?

It depends. There are so many sects and denominations it makes it hard to paint them with one stroke, but seeing as how the bible teaches misogyny, homophobia, and a slew of other things that I believe are immoral, I'd say that their starting point puts them off to a bad start.

Basically this is a continuation of another conversation. We're discussing the good religion has done vs the bad religion has done, and didn't want to get too off topic from the OP.

Batters up dashcues.

 

[bioWheel]

In the absence of religion people would still find a reason to fight. And in the absence of religion people would still do kind and good acts. So religion doesn't matter one iota.

There's your answer Charlie Brown.

bio

 

[Beefbisquit]

In the absence of religion people would still find a reason to fight. And in the absence of religion people would still do kind and good acts. So religion doesn't matter one iota.

There's your answer Charlie Brown.

bio

My contention is that most of the bad done by religion could only be done by religion, not that if religion as we know it didn't exist that something else would or wouldn't, become equally as harmful.

 

[Padawanbater2]

Awesome.. just spent 20 minutes writing a reply only for the site to fuck up on the posting..

 

[bioWheel]

A 33 yr old friend of mine had a baby. A couple weeks later, having a little bit of pain, she went back to the doc to check it out. Turns out - she had ovarian cancer and only a couple months to live. She made it to her son's first birthday and then died. Think about that. I did and haven't believed in any God since.

 

[dashcues]

Awesome.. just spent 20 minutes writing a reply only for the site to fuck up on the posting..

Me too! And the auto-save's not working.I'll check back shortly.

 

[dashcues]

Basically this is a continuation of another conversation. We're discussing the good religion has done vs the bad religion has done, and didn't want to get too off topic from the OP.

Batters up dashcues.

Thanks Beef.
I apologize for the delay.
I was under the impression we were discussing Christianity,and its contributions to mankind.
I am in no way prepared to debate on the good and bad done by all religions worldwide.Too vast a subject.Our discussion has to do with Christianity.

How does the founding members of a university belonging to a certain denomination have anything to do with the scientific studies and experimentation done at the university? The scientific method works independent of any religion.

• 
  
  ​
  
  

From the founders of Harvard(1636):
After God had carried us safe to New England and we had builded our houses, provided necessaries for our livelihood, reared convenient places for God's worship, and settled the civil government: One of the next things we longed for and looked after was to advance learning and perpetuate it to posterity; dreading to leave an illiterate ministry to the churches, when our present ministers shall lie in the dust.http://www.hds.harvard.edu/about/history-and-mission
Being that Harvard was established,by devout christians,as a University primarily for the further education of christians.They provided a setting in which many fields of study could prosper.This is only one among many.

This has nothing to do with the scientific method.
It has to do with Christianities contributions.

From Michael Bumbulis,Ph.d-(who holds a M.S. degree in Zoology from Ohio state university,and a Ph.d in genetics from Case Western Reserve university)
I think the Christian world view played an important role in the birth of modern science. This is not to say that Christianity "caused" science or that Christianity was sufficient cause for the birth of science. Instead, I have come to believe that the Christian religion was important, maybe even necessary, for the birth of science .http://www.ldolphin.org/bumbulis/
You should check that site^ out.To confirm the quote,and to see how he arrived at his conclusion.A good read nonetheless.
And more:
H. Floris Cohen argued for a biblical Protestant, but not excluding Catholicism, influence on the early development of modern science.[SUP][71][/SUP] He presented Dutch historian R. Hooykaas' argument that a biblical world-view holds all the necessary antidotes for the hubris of Greek rationalism: a respect for manual labour, leading to more experimentation and empiricism, and a supreme God that left nature and open to emulation and manipulation.[SUP][71][/SUP] It supports the idea early modern science rose due to a combination of Greek and biblical thought.
Oxford historian Peter Harrison is another who has argued that a biblical worldview was significant for the development of modern science. Harrison contends that Protestant approaches to the book of scripture had significant, if largely unintended, consequences for the interpretation of the book of nature.[SUP][74][/SUP][SUP][page needed][/SUP] Harrison has also suggested that literal readings of the Genesis narratives of the Creation and Fall motivated and legitimated scientific activity in seventeenth-century England. For many of its seventeenth-century practitioners, science was imagined to be a means of restoring a human dominion over nature that had been lost as a consequence of the Fall.
Historian and professor of religion Eugene M. Klaaren holds that "a belief in divine creation" was central to an emergence of science in seventeenth-century England.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_religion_and_science

• 
  
  It's not a double standard, it's a serious statement about the very nature of religious conflict.
  
  You're removing the label of Christianity at your convenience.You apply it to the wars,suffering,and death from Christianities motivation.You remove the label when good things,such as
  universities,libraries,orphanages,etc.,are done from Christianities motivation.​

That's a double standard.

• 
  Only the 'word of god' can instill such devotion to killing other humans with such merciless resolve and contempt.
  
  I can think of several,offhand.Hate,envy,greed.Or have these not involved "such devotion to killing other humans with such merciless resolve and contempt"?​

I'm sure some victims of non-religious wars might disagree.

• 
  Again, the 'word of god' makes people do crazy stuff...
  
  So does drugs,and women.But,they can also provide comfort.​

• 
  It depends. There are so many sects and denominations it makes it hard to paint them with one stroke, but seeing as how the bible teaches misogyny, homophobia, and a slew of other things that I believe are immoral, I'd say that their starting point puts them off to a bad start.
  
  If as you say "the bible teaches misogyny,homophobia,and a slew of other things",then wouldn't you say the bible "teaches" love,loyalty,honor,and a "slew" of other things that you believe are moral?​

If all you look for is the bad,that's what you'll find. Not all Christian denominations are guilty of the crimes you mention,but you would deem them guilty by any association.

Not sure why my post became scrambled?

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

A 33 yr old friend of mine had a baby. A couple weeks later, having a little bit of pain, she went back to the doc to check it out. Turns out - she had ovarian cancer and only a couple months to live. She made it to her son's first birthday and then died. Think about that. I did and haven't believed in any God since.

God should of reached down with his healing hand and performed a miracle, granting her an amazing life with her child? Theres a countless number of beings on this planet, over 7 billion people on this planet, hell, theres most likely countless intelligent lifeforms in the universe, and what ever created this universe is supposed to care and protect this one cancer stricken mother and her family? God or not, we are on our own in this life and rightfully so. No one gets any miracles or handouts. We have to endure these terrible things in order for us to learn and grow and be stronger. Sorry if I come off as a dick, its horrible what happened to your friend. I just think thats a shallow reason as to why you dont believe. Not that I care if you believe or not.

 

[eye exaggerate]

Thanks Beef.
I apologize for the delay.
I was under the impression we were discussing Christianity,and its contributions to mankind.
I am in no way prepared to debate on the good and bad done by all religions worldwide.Too vast a subject.Our discussion has to do with Christianity.

How does the founding members of a university belonging to a certain denomination have anything to do with the scientific studies and experimentation done at the university? The scientific method works independent of any religion.

• 
  
  ​
  
  

From the founders of Harvard(1636):
After God had carried us safe to New England and we had builded our houses, provided necessaries for our livelihood, reared convenient places for God's worship, and settled the civil government: One of the next things we longed for and looked after was to advance learning and perpetuate it to posterity; dreading to leave an illiterate ministry to the churches, when our present ministers shall lie in the dust.http://www.hds.harvard.edu/about/history-and-mission
Being that Harvard was established,by devout christians,as a University primarily for the further education of christians.They provided a setting in which many fields of study could prosper.This is only one among many.

This has nothing to do with the scientific method.
It has to do with Christianities contributions.

From Michael Bumbulis,Ph.d-(who holds a M.S. degree in Zoology from Ohio state university,and a Ph.d in genetics from Case Western Reserve university)
I think the Christian world view played an important role in the birth of modern science. This is not to say that Christianity "caused" science or that Christianity was sufficient cause for the birth of science. Instead, I have come to believe that the Christian religion was important, maybe even necessary, for the birth of science .http://www.ldolphin.org/bumbulis/
You should check that site^ out.To confirm the quote,and to see how he arrived at his conclusion.A good read nonetheless.
And more:
H. Floris Cohen argued for a biblical Protestant, but not excluding Catholicism, influence on the early development of modern science.[SUP][71][/SUP] He presented Dutch historian R. Hooykaas' argument that a biblical world-view holds all the necessary antidotes for the hubris of Greek rationalism: a respect for manual labour, leading to more experimentation and empiricism, and a supreme God that left nature and open to emulation and manipulation.[SUP][71][/SUP] It supports the idea early modern science rose due to a combination of Greek and biblical thought.
Oxford historian Peter Harrison is another who has argued that a biblical worldview was significant for the development of modern science. Harrison contends that Protestant approaches to the book of scripture had significant, if largely unintended, consequences for the interpretation of the book of nature.[SUP][74][/SUP][SUP][page needed][/SUP] Harrison has also suggested that literal readings of the Genesis narratives of the Creation and Fall motivated and legitimated scientific activity in seventeenth-century England. For many of its seventeenth-century practitioners, science was imagined to be a means of restoring a human dominion over nature that had been lost as a consequence of the Fall.
Historian and professor of religion Eugene M. Klaaren holds that "a belief in divine creation" was central to an emergence of science in seventeenth-century England.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_religion_and_science

• 
  
  It's not a double standard, it's a serious statement about the very nature of religious conflict.
  
  You're removing the label of Christianity at your convenience.You apply it to the wars,suffering,and death from Christianities motivation.You remove the label when good things,such as
  universities,libraries,orphanages,etc.,are done from Christianities motivation.​

That's a double standard.

• 
  Only the 'word of god' can instill such devotion to killing other humans with such merciless resolve and contempt.
  
  I can think of several,offhand.Hate,envy,greed.Or have these not involved "such devotion to killing other humans with such merciless resolve and contempt"?​

I'm sure some victims of non-religious wars might disagree.

• 
  Again, the 'word of god' makes people do crazy stuff...
  
  So does drugs,and women.But,they can also provide comfort.​

• 
  It depends. There are so many sects and denominations it makes it hard to paint them with one stroke, but seeing as how the bible teaches misogyny, homophobia, and a slew of other things that I believe are immoral, I'd say that their starting point puts them off to a bad start.
  
  If as you say "the bible teaches misogyny,homophobia,and a slew of other things",then wouldn't you say the bible "teaches" love,loyalty,honor,and a "slew" of other things that you believe are moral?​

If all you look for is the bad,that's what you'll find. Not all Christian denominations are guilty of the crimes you mention,but you would deem them guilty by any association.

Not sure why my post became scrambled?

Interestingly, I can see that the strict nature of early religion played a major part in how science is viewed

 

[sso]

Religion is mostly priest support.

It is a way to have a comfortable life and dressing fancy without doing very much.



It is a way to use the stupidity of most people in the grand tradition of "There is one born every minute."



There might be a god and life after death, but Neither needs your money and the only rules that exist are the rules of the heart. (with bylaws by the stomach and genitals.)

 

[Padawanbater2]

God should of reached down with his healing hand and performed a miracle, granting her an amazing life with her child? Theres a countless number of beings on this planet, over 7 billion people on this planet, hell, theres most likely countless intelligent lifeforms in the universe, and what ever created this universe is supposed to care and protect this one cancer stricken mother and her family? God or not, we are on our own in this life and rightfully so. No one gets any miracles or handouts. We have to endure these terrible things in order for us to learn and grow and be stronger. Sorry if I come off as a dick, its horrible what happened to your friend. I just think thats a shallow reason as to why you dont believe. Not that I care if you believe or not.

This is a pretty insensitive post. Attempting to make a point on the hardships of others is most often best avoided.

Also, you're wrong. The entire point of Christianity is to hold a special connection with the creator of the universe, the number of beings is a moot point. 7 billion, 100 billion, 57 trillion.. doesn't matter, he is supposed to be all powerful. Attempting to explain this attribute away is pointless. All powerful is all powerful.


It's not difficult to understand why someone would abandon the worthless idea of organized religion after facing such a tragedy. That's life, that's how it happens.

 

[Beefbisquit]

Thanks Beef.
I apologize for the delay.
I was under the impression we were discussing Christianity,and its contributions to mankind.
I am in no way prepared to debate on the good and bad done by all religions worldwide.Too vast a subject.Our discussion has to do with Christianity.

Ok, lets reign it in then. Christianities view on science has been more damning than accepting in the past. Science was ok, as long as it didn't contradict the bible. If science did contradict the bible, it was obviously false.

I posit that virtually any religion could have been substituted for Christianity when it comes to simply opening a university. It had nothing to do with the merits, or benefits occurred from Christianity that helped pave scientific discovery. If it were Hindu's that founded the first universities in the USA, would you say that science is 'hindu' based? No, science is a self correcting methodology that works independently of religions.

From the founders of Harvard(1636):
After God had carried us safe to New England and we had builded our houses, provided necessaries for our livelihood, reared convenient places for God's worship, and settled the civil government: One of the next things we longed for and looked after was to advance learning and perpetuate it to posterity; dreading to leave an illiterate ministry to the churches, when our present ministers shall lie in the dust.http://www.hds.harvard.edu/about/history-and-mission

So, when people came to the new world they thanked god, made churches, and decided they didn't want to be illiterate so they made schools. Unless gods divinity created the university, or the bible was used to teach chemistry or some other subject, Christianity has no direct part in obtaining a higher education (other than what people do on their spare time).

If I'm a collector of baseball cards that has no bearing on my formal education. There is little or no information that I can transfer from baseball card collecting to experimental physics that would qualify as useful. Likewise, there is... nothing? in the bible that transfers to science as a direct contributor to a scientific discovery.

Being that Harvard was established,by devout christians,as a University primarily for the further education of christians.They provided a setting in which many fields of study could prosper.This is only one among many.

This has nothing to do with the scientific method.
It has to do with Christianities contributions.

If a Christian working at Mc Donald's cooks your hamburger, is it Christian contribution to the culinary world? I don't think so....

From Michael Bumbulis,Ph.d-(who holds a M.S. degree in Zoology from Ohio state university,and a Ph.d in genetics from Case Western Reserve university)
I think the Christian world view played an important role in the birth of modern science. This is not to say that Christianity "caused" science or that Christianity was sufficient cause for the birth of science. Instead, I have come to believe that the Christian religion was important, maybe even necessary, for the birth of science .http://www.ldolphin.org/bumbulis/
You should check that site^ out.To confirm the quote,and to see how he arrived at his conclusion.A good read nonetheless.
And more:

I'll read that later, I have to get going shortly.

H. Floris Cohen argued for a biblical Protestant, but not excluding Catholicism, influence on the early development of modern science.[SUP][71][/SUP] He presented Dutch historian R. Hooykaas' argument that a biblical world-view holds all the necessary antidotes for the hubris of Greek rationalism: a respect for manual labour, leading to more experimentation and empiricism, and a supreme God that left nature and open to emulation and manipulation.[SUP][71][/SUP] It supports the idea early modern science rose due to a combination of Greek and biblical thought.
Oxford historian Peter Harrison is another who has argued that a biblical worldview was significant for the development of modern science. Harrison contends that Protestant approaches to the book of scripture had significant, if largely unintended, consequences for the interpretation of the book of nature.[SUP][74][/SUP][SUP][page needed][/SUP] Harrison has also suggested that literal readings of the Genesis narratives of the Creation and Fall motivated and legitimated scientific activity in seventeenth-century England. For many of its seventeenth-century practitioners, science was imagined to be a means of restoring a human dominion over nature that had been lost as a consequence of the Fall.

Some people think that science sprung up as a way to restore humanity from 'the fall'..... interesting. However, where science has contradicted the bible in the past... look out.

Historian and professor of religion

Eugene M. Klaaren holds that "a belief in divine creation" was central to an emergence of science in seventeenth-century England.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_religion_and_science

You're removing the label of Christianity at your convenience. You apply it to the wars,suffering,and death from Christianities motivation. You remove the label when good things, such asuniversities,libraries,orphanages,etc.,are done from Christianities motivation.
That's a double standard.

Your point is slightly off mark, IMO. My main point is that the good done by Christianity could be done by anyone, of any faith or no faith. The bad things done by Christiany are either unique to Christianity or religion in general.

"Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things, that takes religion." - Some guy I can't remember and I'm too lazy to look up

Nothing about Christianity is uniquely useful, or advantageous to the construction of education facilities. It was a good thing they created them, but it wasn't because they were Christian that they created them. The only argument I can think of is that maybe, a person could argue they created them to help the needy, as taught in the bible; but that's pretty weak. Especially considering we're talking about Harvard...

I can think of several,offhand.Hate,envy,greed.Or have these not involved "such devotion to killing other humans with such merciless resolve and contempt"?

Those are emotions not ideologies. What belief structure, other than religion with regards to Christianity specifically, gives written permission to maim, kill, lynch, torture, and enslave people without batting so much of an eye? Only people who believe god is directly commanding them can do such terrible things with no conscience or regret.... or complete psychopaths. I personally don't think the Christians who commit grievous acts in the name of their god are all psychopaths which means their faith and belief in god is overriding their conscience/common sense.

I'm sure some victims of non-religious wars might disagree.

Victims of any war are tragic. It just happens the victims of religious wars didn't even die for something tangible. They died because someone else's holy book/doctrine 'said so'.

So does drugs,and women.But,they can also provide comfort.

If 'comfort' is your argument, then no one should ever go to rehab and no one should ever have an intervention. You're saying junkies are 'using' because they like the feeling and it gives them comfort, so we should leave them to it regardless of how harmful it is?

If as you say "the bible teaches misogyny,homophobia,and a slew of other things",then wouldn't you say the bible "teaches" love,loyalty,honor,and a "slew" of other things that you believe are moral?

If all you look for is the bad,that's what you'll find. Not all Christian denominations are guilty of the crimes you mention,but you would deem them guilty by any association.

There are some teachings in the bible that are typically viewed as 'good', but you have to cherry pick through all of the absolutely horrid, terrible atrocities to find the little turds of 'hope'. It's like rooting through feces to get some corn nibblets; there's easier ways to get some corn.

Not sure why my post became scrambled?

Consider it unscrambled.

 

[dashcues]

Ok, lets reign it in then. Christianities view on science has been more damning than accepting in the past. Science was ok, as long as it didn't contradict the bible. If science did contradict the bible, it was obviously false.

And yet,amidst the strictest of Christian theocracies,scientific research flourished.More often than not funded by Christian churches.

I posit that virtually any religion could have been substituted for Christianity when it comes to simply opening a university.

Certainly.
I'm not claiming anything done by Christians is exclusive to Christianity.But a contribution is a contribution.No matter the avenue.
Christian missions established universities,hospitals,schools,libraries,etc.The contributions,in these cases,were entirely done in regard to,and dependent upon,their christian faith.

It had nothing to do with the merits, or benefits occurred from Christianity that helped pave scientific discovery.

Interesting little tidbit:35 craters on the moon are named after Jesuits.

If it were Hindu's that founded the first universities in the USA, would you say that science is 'hindu' based?

If Hindu's founded the first universities,because of their belief,I would say Hindus contributed to education.(which ripples far)

No, science is a self correcting methodology that works independently of religions.

Don't know why this keeps coming up?
I'm not debating the scientific method,or how it works.
My point still remains on Christianities contributions.I think I've shown sufficient reason to say that,despite Christianities atrocities,It has contributed to mankinds progression as well.

So, when people came to the new world they thanked god, made churches, and decided they didn't want to be illiterate so they made schools. Unless gods divinity created the university, or the bible was used to teach chemistry or some other subject, Christianity has no direct part in obtaining a higher education (other than what people do on their spare time).

Again,I'll have to go with scholarship:
Okay. So renaissance humanism was one model aimed in particular at the social elite. A second cultural influence of great importance was of course the Protestant Reformation. The notion that learning and sound religion should go together was present from the beginning, of course, but the triumph of Protestantism in the reformation gave an even greater edge to the advocacy of education for two reasons. First of all, they wanted to educate the clergy better, to provide a better educated clergy who would be not only administrators of the sacraments but a teaching pastorate; theologically aware preachers and catechizers, educators of the people in the new church.
Secondly, they also believed that education was a vital aid to the salvation of the common people. Protestantism after all was very much a religion of the book, and in their view full appreciation of God's will required the ability to read it in the scriptures; or ideally. Hence, there was an emphasis on schooling and on basic literacy for essentially religious purposes, and that in a sense extends the educational drive of the period beyond the social elite to the population at large. This is an educational ideal of much broader social relevance.http://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-251/lecture-17#transcript
This ^ is an excerpt taken from Yale Prof.Keith E. Wrightson's video lecture :Early modern England,Politics,Religion,and society under the Tudors and Stuarts.(again,if ya get the time,well worth it)

Again.Christian missions played a "direct part" in developing education,language skills,medicinal practices,etc.,in underdeveloped cultures around the world.

If I'm a collector of baseball cards that has no bearing on my formal education. There is little or no information that I can transfer from baseball card collecting to experimental physics that would qualify as useful. Likewise, there is... nothing? in the bible that transfers to science as a direct contributor to a scientific discovery.


If a Christian working at Mc Donald's cooks your hamburger, is it Christian contribution to the culinary world? I don't think so....

Your analogy is not accurate.Was Mcdonalds founded through christianities influence?Was it's founder christian?If so,was he trying to provide better food and settings primarily for christians,because he thought that's what Christ would want him to do?
If so,then i would say Mcdonalds is a christian motivated contribution.

Your point is slightly off mark, IMO. My main point is that the good done by Christianity could be done by anyone, of any faith or no faith. The bad things done by Christiany are either unique to Christianity or religion in general.

"Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things, that takes religion." - Some guy I can't remember and I'm too lazy to look up

Nothing about Christianity is uniquely useful, or advantageous to the construction of education facilities. It was a good thing they created them, but it wasn't because they were Christian that they created them. The only argument I can think of is that maybe, a person could argue they created them to help the needy, as taught in the bible; but that's pretty weak. Especially considering we're talking about Harvard...

Christians cause atrocities,because they believe Christ wants them to.Christianity is blamed.
Christians aid mankind,because they believe Christ wants them to.Christianity should be credited.
Otherwise you're judging based on a double standard

What belief structure, other than religion with regards to Christianity specifically, gives written permission to maim, kill, lynch, torture, and enslave people without batting so much of an eye? Only people who believe god is directly commanding them can do such terrible things with no conscience or regret.... or complete psychopaths. I personally don't think the Christians who commit grievous acts in the name of their god are all psychopaths which means their faith and belief in god is overriding their conscience/common sense.

Where is it written,that Christians specifically, are "given permission to maim, kill, lynch, torture, and enslave people without batting so much of an eye"?
If you say the bible,I gotta get you to source that quote.Or is it hyperbole?

Victims of any war are tragic. It just happens the victims of religious wars didn't even die for something tangible.

You imply that if somethings not tangible it's not worth dying for.Freedoms not tangible,yet I would fight and die for mine.As i'm sure many would.

They died because someone else's holy book/doctrine 'said so'.

Now use the same criteria for judgement.How many has been helped because someone else's holy book/doctrine said so?
(For some reason,St.Jude's hospital for children comes to mind)

If 'comfort' is your argument, then no one should ever go to rehab and no one should ever have an intervention. You're saying junkies are 'using' because they like the feeling and it gives them comfort, so we should leave them to it regardless of how harmful it is?

No.I'm saying the comfort my wife has given to me,and drugs which has benefited mankind,far outweigh the harm that either may have caused.
From your perspective:We should throw away all drugs(and women),beneficial or not,because of any harm they have done.

There are some teachings in the bible that are typically viewed as 'good', but you have to cherry pick through all of the absolutely horrid, terrible atrocities to find the little turds of 'hope'. It's like rooting through feces to get some corn nibblets; there's easier ways to get some corn.

Again.Hyperbole.I don't have to "cherry pick" at all to find good messages in the bible.

 

[Beefbisquit]

And yet,amidst the strictest of Christian theocracies,scientific research flourished.More often than not funded by Christian churches.

Christianity was one of the biggest suppressors of knowledge in all of history. A lot of books that didn't agree with the bible were either burned, or the author was killed.... and the books were burned. lol

Certainly.
I'm not claiming anything done by Christians is exclusive to Christianity.But a contribution is a contribution.No matter the avenue.
Christian missions established universities,hospitals,schools,libraries,etc.The contributions,in these cases,were entirely done in regard to,and dependent upon,their christian faith.

I can't argue that those things weren't built by Christians. Keep in mind often education, food, shelter would only be offered if the people agreed to convert.

Interesting little tidbit:35 craters on the moon are named after Jesuits.

If Hindu's founded the first universities,because of their belief,I would say Hindus contributed to education.(which ripples far)

Greeks founded the first universities thousands of years ago. Christianity was still a 'wink in someone's eye'....

Don't know why this keeps coming up?
I'm not debating the scientific method,or how it works.
My point still remains on Christianities contributions.I think I've shown sufficient reason to say that,despite Christianities atrocities,It has contributed to mankinds progression as well.

It comes up because nothing in Christianity had a direct influence on science. There's nothing in the bible that decrees education should be held with esteem and no findings were discovered because of christianity. Discoveries would have been made regardless of the religion of the scientist. You are confusing causation and correlation. Saying science stemmed from religion is a non sequitur. It doesn't follow that just because a few scientists believed in God that science resulted from it.

When the roman empire fell and the Christians took over they abandoned the most technological achievements of the time, e.g. aquaducts, roads, etc.

There was a time when religion ruled (with an iron fist) it was called the dark ages, and was a virtual standstill for any scientific advancement.

Again,I'll have to go with scholarship:
Okay. So renaissance humanism was one model aimed in particular at the social elite. A second cultural influence of great importance was of course the Protestant Reformation. The notion that learning and sound religion should go together was present from the beginning, of course, but the triumph of Protestantism in the reformation gave an even greater edge to the advocacy of education for two reasons. First of all, they wanted to educate the clergy better, to provide a better educated clergy who would be not only administrators of the sacraments but a teaching pastorate; theologically aware preachers and catechizers, educators of the people in the new church.
Secondly, they also believed that education was a vital aid to the salvation of the common people. Protestantism after all was very much a religion of the book, and in their view full appreciation of God's will required the ability to read it in the scriptures; or ideally. Hence, there was an emphasis on schooling and on basic literacy for essentially religious purposes, and that in a sense extends the educational drive of the period beyond the social elite to the population at large. This is an educational ideal of much broader social relevance.http://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-251/lecture-17#transcript
This ^ is an excerpt taken from Yale Prof.Keith E. Wrightson's video lecture :Early modern England,Politics,Religion,and society under the Tudors and Stuarts.(again,if ya get the time,well worth it)

Again.Christian missions played a "direct part" in developing education,language skills,medicinal practices,etc.,in underdeveloped cultures around the world.

Christians had a large part to play in establishing institutions. I agree, with that part of your argument. I just don't agree that modern science exists because of Christianity (especially considering the Greeks and Romans were practicing science thousands of years previous, and it took Christianity to completely fuck up thousands of years of study and experimentation).

Your analogy is not accurate.Was Mcdonalds founded through christianities influence?Was it's founder christian?If so,was he trying to provide better food and settings primarily for christians,because he thought that's what Christ would want him to do?
If so,then i would say Mcdonalds is a christian motivated contribution.

The motives of the founders of the institution have zero to do with the content the university teaches. Universities don't just accept Christians, they are learning institutions that anyone can attend.

Christians cause atrocities,because they believe Christ wants them to.Christianity is blamed.
Christians aid mankind,because they believe Christ wants them to.Christianity should be credited.
Otherwise you're judging based on a double standard

Christians helping people because of the creed of their religion can give credit to their religion if they want to. Good people will still do good things, and bad people will still do bad things, regardless of religion. For good people to do bad things, that takes religion.

"Cherish your family, help Christians get an education, but KILL ALL FAGGOTS."

Good people doing bad things.

Where is it written,that Christians specifically, are "given permission to maim, kill, lynch, torture, and enslave people without batting so much of an eye"?
If you say the bible,I gotta get you to source that quote.Or is it hyperbole?

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

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2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:

Kill Brats
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

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3) Murdering Children

Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

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4) Miscellaneous Murders

More of Samson's Murders
(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)

Peter Kills Two People
There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)

Mass Murder
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

You Have to Kill
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

The Danites Kill the Next Town
But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)

God Kills Some More
Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)

God Promises More Killing
I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

The Angel of Death
My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)

Destruction of Ai
Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.
Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.
Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.
When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)

Killing at Jericho
When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

God Kills an Extended Family
"You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)

Mass Murder
The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)

The Angel of Death
That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)

Kill Your Neighbors
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Kill the Family of Sinners
And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it." [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)

Kill Followers of Other Religions
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

Murder
At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)

Kill All of Babylon
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Micah Kills a Whole Town
Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)

You imply that if somethings not tangible it's not worth dying for.Freedoms not tangible,yet I would fight and die for mine.As i'm sure many would.

Freedom is demonstrable. It doesn't need a physical form, but there should be justification for believing it exists.

Now use the same criteria for judgement.How many has been helped because someone else's holy book/doctrine said so?
(For some reason,St.Jude's hospital for children comes to mind)

If religion never existed do you think no one would be charitable?

No.I'm saying the comfort my wife has given to me,and drugs which has benefited mankind,far outweigh the harm that either may have caused.
From your perspective:We should throw away all drugs(and women),beneficial or not,because of any harm they have done.

No, I just think we need to see the good and the bad. Drugs have demonstrably saved peoples lives, god has not.

Again.Hyperbole.I don't have to "cherry pick" at all to find good messages in the bible.

There is a TON of murder, rape, child abuse, slavery, misogyny, ritual sacrifice, etc., ad nauseum, in the bible. The few bits about loving your neighbour and turning the other cheek seem minuscule among the pages upon pages of death and destruction.

 

[Greenkid777]

I began writing a reply but then remembered this was an argument about religion.

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

This is a pretty insensitive post. Attempting to make a point on the hardships of others is most often best avoided.

Also, you're wrong. The entire point of Christianity is to hold a special connection with the creator of the universe, the number of beings is a moot point. 7 billion, 100 billion, 57 trillion.. doesn't matter, he is supposed to be all powerful. Attempting to explain this attribute away is pointless. All powerful is all powerful.


It's not difficult to understand why someone would abandon the worthless idea of organized religion after facing such a tragedy. That's life, that's how it happens.

No, I get the "all knowing, all powerful" part of the religious perspective. That kind of god is said to cater to all beings. Its all apart of the divine plan. I didnt wanna mention that and make a lengthy post though. I was talking about the belief in a higher power in general rather than a god from religion. I strayed off topic a bit I guess.

I dont think what I said was mean spirited, perhaps a tiny bit offensive at first but I thought my point was heart warming enough. Plus, I said sorry lol. I think its healthy to have these kind of talks. Makes the hardships of life a little less hard.

 

[dashcues]

Christianity was one of the biggest suppressors of knowledge in all of history.

Biggest suppressors? I'd say barbarian hordes in every era,the world over.Goths,vikings,gauls,etc. Hard to point the finger at any one group.
Christian Monks,and missionaries,in the middle ages,are responsible for preserving most of the classical literature we have today.
When the visigoths first took Rome,and started looting and burning books,It was Irish christian monks that copied everything they could get their hands on.

A lot of books that didn't agree with the bible were either burned, or the author was killed.... and the books were burned. lol

What is "a lot of"? Sounds like an exaggeration.
Yes.The papacy has,at times,banned certain books they felt might contradict scripture.At times,they burned the violators,and the books.No argument there.
Though,I'd wager less books have been burned,and even fewer authors have been killed,than you're implying.
Unless you're talking about Diocletians persecutions?

I can't argue that those things weren't built by Christians. Keep in mind often education, food, shelter would only be offered if the people agreed to convert.

History disagrees.Since their inception,christian churches have provided :hospitals,universities,libraries,etc.-and taught,fed and sheltered...more often than not,regardless of religious conversion.
wikifact:The Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of education and medical services in the world.(<I didn't know that)

I go to St. Elizabeth's hospital for treatments.My primary doctor is a member of St.Elizabeth's physicians. I've never been asked about religious denomination, or conversion.

Greeks founded the first universities thousands of years ago. Christianity was still a 'wink in someone's eye'....

Then would you say the greeks contributed?

It comes up because nothing in Christianity had a direct influence on science.

The majority view of scholarship says otherwise.Science historians,medieval historians,history professors,all say it did.
I've provided transcripts of it being taught in secular history classes,and provided links to scholarly articles on how they've arrived at their conclusions.
Now,I'm not always on the right side of scholars,but for me to disagree with them,it does take some convincing.

There's nothing in the bible that decrees education should be held with esteem

Proverbs from the bible:
An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.
Let the wise hear and increase in learning
I didn't have to look hard.The early christians and jews advocated education and held it in high regard.

and no findings were discovered because of christianity.

Matthew Maury created the science of oceanography because he
believed the Bible when it said there were paths in the seas.
One among many.

Discoveries would have been made regardless of the religion of the scientist. You are confusing causation and correlation. Saying science stemmed from religion is a non sequitur. It doesn't follow that just because a few scientists believed in God that science resulted from it.

You're confusing the argument.
Me saying that christianity contributed to scientific development,and you saying that I'm implying by my statement,that "science stemmed from religion" is a non sequitur that takes a huge leap.(IMO)
I'm 100% positive that you know that's not what i'm implying.

When the roman empire fell and the Christians took over they abandoned the most technological achievements of the time, e.g. aquaducts, roads, etc.

Deurbanization for the most part.I don't imagine the visigoths were too christian-friendly at the time.

There was a time when religion ruled (with an iron fist) it was called the dark ages, and was a virtual standstill for any scientific advancement.

Most historians don't use the term "dark ages" anymore."Early middle Ages" is the more accepted label.They changed the term because more and more evidence showed that the time wasn't as uncivilized and bleak as once thought.Scientific advancements slowed,but never to a "virtual standstill".
Pick any era of "the dark ages",and I'll show you scientific advancements,by christians.The 10th century would be you're best choice,but even then there was scientific advancements,by christians.
If Christian churches (and feudalism) wouldn't have prevailed,then it would have been any one of the barbarian masses.Slavics,croats,germanic goths,huns,etc.
Living in the middle ages,which would you prefer? If you're undecided I can provide links to description of their conquests,and warfare tactics.

Christians had a large part to play in establishing institutions. I agree, with that part of your argument.

Good.We're making progress.
It's not that much more of a leap to say christianity has made contributions to our development.

I just don't agree that modern science exists because of Christianity

Christianity contributed to modern sciences development.Many times throughout history.
I understand you don't like it,but according to the mainstream view,it's factual.No matter your interpretation of it.

(especially considering the Greeks and Romans were practicing science thousands of years previous, and it took Christianity to completely fuck up thousands of years of study and experimentation).

How,exactly,did christianity "fuck up thousands of years of study and experimentation",when christian monks copied and preserved most of the classic literature,and ancient texts that western civilization uses even today?

The motives of the founders of the institution have zero to do with the content the university teaches.

Christian cathedrals,monasteries,Universities,etc.,provided settings where any number of fields could be studied.

Universities don't just accept Christians, they are learning institutions that anyone can attend.

Which goes against your previous argument,that you had to convert to christianity before you could attend.

Christians helping people because of the creed of their religion can give credit to their religion if they want to.

If they say christianity influenced or inspired their achievements,then we should acknowledge their influences or inspirations.To them,it could have made all the difference.

Good people will still do good things, and bad people will still do bad things, regardless of religion. For good people to do bad things, that takes religion.

I never understood this quote,or why people use it.Good people do bad things all the time.No religion involved.Don't you agree?

"Cherish your family, help Christians get an education, but KILL ALL FAGGOTS."

The extremist view.Not even the majority view where I'm from.The conservative south.
Tell me Beef,you're an atheist.Do you hold the extremist views of atheism? And should we judge all atheists by their extremists?

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
SNIP...

I still don't see the proclamation of your quote.That Christians "are given permission to maim, kill, lynch, torture, and enslave people without batting so much of an eye".
I will,however,go over each and every one of these events with you in detail,although,We would have to go one at a time.Not all of these events have the same answer,and most would require a non anachronistic view.Time,culture,and context play major roles.
Point of the authors view,as well.Remember,these are largely hebrew books.So what might be good for the hebrews,wouldn't automatically be accepted the same way for other cultures at the time.

Freedom is demonstrable. It doesn't need a physical form, but there should be justification for believing it exists.

This reads like a set-up.But I'll dive in anyway.
Their belief is their justification,because yes,they believe god,jesus,etc.,exists.
Freedom from belief,and freedom to believe.Both require freedom.
Admonish them,educate them,and by all means take away their ability to inflict unnecessary harm to others,but you should never impose on their freedom to believe.Whether you think it's justified, or not.

If religion never existed do you think no one would be charitable?

Certainly there would still be charities.No one group holds a monopoly on charity.
Although,I will say,without Christianities involvement,it may not be to the extent we see today.But that's only speculation.
But it's irrelevant.Christianity has been in full force as a provider of charitable donations,since its inception.Thankfully!(again St.Judes hospital for children comes to mind)

No, I just think we need to see the good and the bad. Drugs have demonstrably saved peoples lives, god has not.

Does that mean we need to see the good and the bad christianity has done through the ages? Christian charities,hospitals,medical contributions,etc.,have saved peoples lives as well.Regardless if god exists,or not.

There is a TON of murder, rape, child abuse, slavery, misogyny, ritual sacrifice, etc., ad nauseum, in the bible. The few bits about loving your neighbour and turning the other cheek seem minuscule among the pages upon pages of death and destruction.

Few bits? Miniscule?
While I appreciate your simplistic view and exaggerative phrases,i assure you there are more than just a "few bits" of positive messages within the bible.

 

[eye exaggerate]

Great thread, btw...

 

[Beefbisquit]

Biggest suppressors? I'd say barbarian hordes in every era,the world over.Goths,vikings,gauls,etc. Hard to point the finger at any one group.
Christian Monks,and missionaries,in the middle ages,are responsible for preserving most of the classical literature we have today.
When the visigoths first took Rome,and started looting and burning books,It was Irish christian monks that copied everything they could get their hands on.

"Empty your minds of secular knowledge." &#8211; Chrysostom (The father of the Dark ages)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"As the Western Empire died, it left behind it empty cities with marble ruins lying like great skeletons, at their centres. Slowly the population was transformed into separate and modest nations of small farms and savage armies. There was little international trade and almost total illiteracy."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]&#8211; John Romer, Testament, p244.[/FONT]

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2003/how-the-humanists-not-the-irish-saved-western-civilization/

Those monks weren't what you think they were.... they were acting against the Catholic church, and according to historians some were even jailed and executed for copying those texts.

"In the year 354 A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Execution of pagan priests begins. A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan temples and the execution of all &#8220;idolaters&#8221;. First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire. The first lime factories are organised next to the closed pagan temples. A major part of the holy architecture of the pagans is turned into lime."

Burn the cities and libraries.... nice.

What is "a lot of"? Sounds like an exaggeration.

I don't have an exact number. Does a substantial amount of libraries, and books were burned and a substantial amount of people were executed for teaching things that went against church teachings even if they had direct evidence to support what they were claiming work better? lol

Yes.The papacy has,at times,banned certain books they felt might contradict scripture.At times,they burned the violators,and the books.No argument there.
Though,I'd wager less books have been burned,and even fewer authors have been killed,than you're implying.
Unless you're talking about Diocletians persecutions?

See above.

History disagrees.Since their inception,christian churches have provided :hospitals,universities,libraries,etc.-and taught,fed and sheltered...more often than not,regardless of religious conversion.
wikifact:The Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of education and medical services in the world.(<I didn't know that) I go to St. Elizabeth's hospital for treatments.My primary doctor is a member of St.Elizabeth's physicians. I've never been asked about religious denomination, or conversion.

We have laws to prevent discrimination today. What about in Africa and South America?

Then would you say the greeks contributed?

Yes, the greek people were the creators of universities. The philosophy and science they taught in those schools didn't stem from their 'greek-ness' though.

The majority view of scholarship says otherwise.Science historians,medieval historians,history professors,all say it did.
I've provided transcripts of it being taught in secular history classes,and provided links to scholarly articles on how they've arrived at their conclusions.
Now,I'm not always on the right side of scholars,but for me to disagree with them,it does take some convincing.

I know Christians helped found Universities. People may have even found some inspiration from the bible with regards to formulating a hypothesis, but that's where it stops. Christianity, an unchanging doctrine and science, a self correcting methodology are just at odds. Basically, Christianity boils down to 'no matter what evidence is shown, Christ still exists and is miraculous', and that is at fundamental odds with an evidence based methodology.

Proverbs from the bible:
An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.
Let the wise hear and increase in learning

I've yet to see a Christian that actually acts like Jesus, so....

The Catholic Church condemned any secular knowledge.

As long as it's Christian knowledge, and doesn't go against the bibles teachings or you're worthy of death.

I didn't have to look hard.The early christians and jews advocated education and held it in high regard.

I didn't have to look hard at history, not a quote by Jesus, to see the exact opposite.

Augistine?
Pope Gregory?
John Chrysostom?

Nice fellas, those heads of the Church.

Matthew Maury created the science of oceanography because he
believed the Bible when it said there were paths in the seas.
One among many.

He was inspired by the bible. Ok. He didn't use any knowledge from the bible when experimenting or making observations, or testing his findings.

You're confusing the argument.
Me saying that christianity contributed to scientific development,and you saying that I'm implying by my statement,that "science stemmed from religion" is a non sequitur that takes a huge leap.(IMO)
I'm 100% positive that you know that's not what i'm implying.

Christians contributed to science. The doctrine of Christianity had no direct affect on science, other than acting as a 'muse' to some.

Deurbanization for the most part.I don't imagine the visigoths were too christian-friendly at the time.

You mean divisions into small illiterate tribes?

Most historians don't use the term "dark ages" anymore."Early middle Ages" is the more accepted label.

Source? I've never seen that label, and quite the contrary I see 'dark ages' used frequently in Historical texts.

They changed the term because more and more evidence showed that the time wasn't as uncivilized and bleak as once thought.Scientific advancements slowed,but never to a "virtual standstill".

Slowed A LOT.

Pick any era of "the dark ages",and I'll show you scientific advancements,by christians.The 10th century would be you're best choice,but even then there was scientific advancements,by christians.
If Christian churches (and feudalism) wouldn't have prevailed,then it would have been any one of the barbarian masses.Slavics,croats,germanic goths,huns,etc.
Living in the middle ages,which would you prefer? If you're undecided I can provide links to description of their conquests,and warfare tactics.

Christians executed anyone who wasn't Christian and burned their cities, many times throughout history, 300A.D-?. They sure loved their pagan/idolater cleansing. I've read enough history to have a fairly good understanding of the times, no further descriptions required.

Good.We're making progress.
It's not that much more of a leap to say christianity has made contributions to our development.

Christians made contributions to science.

Christianity contributed to modern sciences development.Many times throughout history.
I understand you don't like it,but according to the mainstream view,it's factual.No matter your interpretation of it.

Saying the same thing over and over again does not make it a fact. Where is it that Jesus taught peer-review, or how to make a hypothesis? Pretty sure there's no scientific writings in the bible (I know there aren't, I've read it front to back two times).

How,exactly,did christianity "fuck up thousands of years of study and experimentation",when christian monks copied and preserved most of the classic literature,and ancient texts that western civilization uses even today?
The first university, Plato's Academy, was founded around 400BC in Greece. The dark ages were the antithesis of critical thinking which were the key values the Greeks taught. Where Socrates said "The un-examined life is not worth living", the Churches were teaching "Empty your minds of secular knowledge".

Christian cathedrals,monasteries,Universities,etc.,provided settings where any number of fields could be studied.

According to historians, most of the places of 'higher learning' that were created through the dark ages focused on 'Church only' teachings.

Which goes against your previous argument,that you had to convert to christianity before you could attend.

Past tense. Look at the exploitation done by missionaries around the world.

If they say christianity influenced or inspired their achievements,then we should acknowledge their influences or inspirations.To them,it could have made all the difference.

Inspiration is certainly a type of contribution.

I never understood this quote,or why people use it.Good people do bad things all the time.No religion involved.Don't you agree?

People make mistakes, but genocide isn't a 'mistake'.

The extremist view.Not even the majority view where I'm from.The conservative south.
Tell me Beef,you're an atheist.Do you hold the extremist views of atheism? And should we judge all atheists by their extremists?

Extremist?

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13)

"Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator&#8212;who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God&#8217;s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. (Romans 1:24-32)

How is it that Christians so freely cherry pick what they want to believe out of the bible? It's either the word of god or it's not.

I still don't see the proclamation of your quote.That Christians "are given permission to maim, kill, lynch, torture, and enslave people without batting so much of an eye".
I will,however,go over each and every one of these events with you in detail,although,We would have to go one at a time.Not all of these events have the same answer,and most would require a non anachronistic view.Time,culture,and context play major roles.
Point of the authors view,as well.Remember,these are largely hebrew books.So what might be good for the hebrews,wouldn't automatically be accepted the same way for other cultures at the time.

I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword (Matthew 10:34)

Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God. (2 Peter 20-21)

Seems pretty damn clear to me. Unless you are interpreting how they state there is no interpretation to scripture.

This reads like a set-up.But I'll dive in anyway.
Their belief is their justification,because yes,they believe god,jesus,etc.,exists.
Freedom from belief,and freedom to believe.Both require freedom.
Admonish them,educate them,and by all means take away their ability to inflict unnecessary harm to others,but you should never impose on their freedom to believe.Whether you think it's justified, or not.

People should be able to believe whatever they want, but if you want to wave your beliefs around in public; expect a backlash. Specifically in my case, peoples religious beliefs influence how they vote, and that matters to me. I don't want abortion outlawed because some half-wit's invisible friends says its bad. There are countless other religiously motivated laws/restrictions religious people want to place on EVERYONE because of THEIR religion.

Certainly there would still be charities.No one group holds a monopoly on charity.
Although,I will say,without Christianities involvement,it may not be to the extent we see today.But that's only speculation.
But it's irrelevant.Christianity has been in full force as a provider of charitable donations,since its inception.Thankfully!(again St.Judes hospital for children comes to mind)

This is absolutely true. One of the reasons Christianity became so popular is because they helped one another through the plague, making it look like god favored them.

Does that mean we need to see the good and the bad christianity has done through the ages? Christian charities,hospitals,medical contributions,etc.,have saved peoples lives as well.Regardless if god exists,or not.

Can't argue with that.

Few bits? Miniscule?
While I appreciate your simplistic view and exaggerative phrases,i assure you there are more than just a "few bits" of positive messages within the bible.

I'd throw that miniature baby out with the bath water, any day, all day.

 

[eye exaggerate]

"Jesus taught peer review?"

Couldn't be, peer review has been proven to be flawed!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/