A question about breeding with feminised pollen

Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
I.G.Rowdit said:
No need to apologize. I knew you were not trying to pick a fight.

In my early days on the internet I used a confrontational, put-down style on message boards. The tone of my answers contained the hidden message that the original poster had no idea of what they were talking about and most of what they had to say was just plain stupid. It took me a while to realize that that approach was totally counter productive. While it might make me feel good that I showed how smart I was and/or how dumb the other guy was, no real knowledge transfer took place. A discussion that would have benefited both of us quickly degraded into a pissing contest where there were no winners.

Now days, I use a very pedantic, teacher-like tone when answering questions. If my answer does not seem to resonate with the questioner I try to figure out where I went wrong and restate the answer to cover what I missed or give an example that hopefully makes a complicated point more clear. In other words, now I'm the stupid one for not providing an understandable answer.

There is no shortage of people looking for a fight. I just don't continue the conversation and they look for a fight somewhere else.

Enough of the warm fuzzies, in answer to your question.

Being even more pedantic than usual, 'monoecious' describes plants that bear separate male and female reproductive structures on the same plant. Examples are: melons, grasses and walnut. 'Dioecious' describes plants that bear male and female reproductive structures on different individuals. Examples are: cannabis, holly and asparagus. There is a third category, 'perfect' where male and female reproductive structures are contained in each individual flower. Examples are: petunia, magnolia and tomato.

I take these meanings to apply to the species in the wild. So, while a Cannabis hermaphrodite produces separate male and female reproductive structures, I think the proper terminology is to call Cannabis dioecious. In other words, I think for Cannabis as we cultivate it, the terminology is not sufficient to describe the various forms of the plant. I consider monoecious cannabis to be a dioecious plant with seriously screwed up growth regulators. Joking aside, it is probably possible to breed for spontaneous hermaphroditism in females and produce what is essentially a monoecious strain of cannabis.

This is my personal opinion, I'm not sure if mainstream Botany takes a different view.
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Its not the transfer of knowledge thats the problem its getting ot all in one place, standardizing it and making it mainstream, somehow that gets lost in translation but it is what it is.

Ive not yet seen a feminized strain that promises no hermie traits whatsoever, seeds grow out just fine. Ive always assumed similar genetics produce similar crosses. Different strain crosses make me think more dominant traits will show through in the dominant XY over the recessive xy.

Marijuana inbreeds more stable crosses than the outbreed crosses imo just the outbreed croses might be more interesting. It is thought that marijuana was very prone to inbreeding in the wild
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
The deeper you get into your F# breeding's, The more "distinct" the traits become in pheo's......It's how you find that specific "trait" easier, that you want to breed into your crossings.....

I'm not exactly sure how many times crossings were made to get to what we call today as "original" OG Kush.......As I understand it. It was a breeding project to create a stable, high potency, mold resistant plant for growing Above Frisco in the more humid climes of the region.....Mold problems were rampant and the need was there......
One of the first resulting cross's is still with us today as "Ghost Cut OG"......I have and still run that cut and am starting a new breeding project with it in the line up...

Sometimes it pays to keep some of the results you get on the road to your goal.....

I.G. Rowdit did a fine job of explaining your questions - well put I.G.!

X&Y represent the dominant or expressed genes of a living thing.....x&y would represent the recessed gene not being expressed....
In S1 seed plants grown out. This places no real pressure on the plant to express bisexually (proper term for nanner plants).
If a plant does so......Chances are that it is an environmental expression and not genetic.

Now if this plant expressing bisexuality results in seeds and the original is XXy. You now get about a 16% chance of real hermaphroditism occurring in the resulting off spring.......The chance of more nannering or bisexuality will rise also...but still not be dominant.

Polyploidy can only result (in cannabis) from chemical exposure for the main part and that is VERY hard to do as the chemical is highly toxic to the plant and the seeds you would expose.......The first resulting plants would be toxic to human use and you would have to S1 them for more seeds now free of toxic levels of the the chemical..

Doc
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
Your confusing me a little, one bit at a time.

Parents are the key and their parents etc, xy + xy can equal XY.

Dominance is relative to the input, xy can become dominant or so im thinking.

We discussed the hermie scenario as being independant to the whole XY situation and somthing totally different. My reference to XXY etc is just one theory which fits nicely, the other we discussed as independant to sexual genetics.

Dr. Who said:
The deeper you get into your F# breeding's, The more "distinct" the traits become in pheo's......It's how you find that specific "trait" easier, that you want to breed into your crossings.....

I'm not exactly sure how many times crossings were made to get to what we call today as "original" OG Kush.......As I understand it. It was a breeding project to create a stable, high potency, mold resistant plant for growing Above Frisco in the more humid climes of the region.....Mold problems were rampant and the need was there......
One of the first resulting cross's is still with us today as "Ghost Cut OG"......I have and still run that cut and am starting a new breeding project with it in the line up...

Sometimes it pays to keep some of the results you get on the road to your goal.....

I.G. Rowdit did a fine job of explaining your questions - well put I.G.!

X&Y represent the dominant or expressed genes of a living thing.....x&y would represent the recessed gene not being expressed....
In S1 seed plants grown out. This places no real pressure on the plant to express bisexually (proper term for nanner plants).
If a plant does so......Chances are that it is an environmental expression and not genetic.

Now if this plant expressing bisexuality results in seeds and the original is XXy. You now get about a 16% chance of real hermaphroditism occurring in the resulting off spring.......The chance of more nannering or bisexuality will rise also...but still not be dominant.

Polyploidy can only result (in cannabis) from chemical exposure for the main part and that is VERY hard to do as the chemical is highly toxic to the plant and the seeds you would expose.......The first resulting plants would be toxic to human use and you would have to S1 them for more seeds now free of toxic levels of the the chemical..

Doc
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I.G.Rowdit

I.G.Rowdit

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
Ive not yet seen a feminized strain that promises no hermie traits whatsoever,
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And you probably never will.
In order to produce feminized seed we inadvertently select for plants that can easily become hermaphrodites. This tendency is passed on in some form to all of the offspring of a feminized strain. So all feminized seeds probably contain the genes that will produce hermaphrodism under some conditions. What varies within strains is the tendency to spontaneously form hermaphrodites. Some do it all the time, some only occasionally when stressed.

Imagine the opposite case, a plant that no matter how you shock, treat or mistreat it, it will not produce male flowers. This plant will never be a parent of a feminized strain and so it will never have a chance to pass on it's genes that completely suppress hermaphrodism.

There is some hope for future advances in this area. The Cannabis genome has been sequenced, so in time someone will figure out which genes are involved in the tendency to produce hermaphrodites. At that point it may be possible to induce hermaphrodism selectively without creating a strain that has a tendency to produce hermaphrodites spontaneously.

Kingrow1 said:
Marijuana inbreeds more stable crosses than the outbreed crosses imo just the outbreed croses might be more interesting.
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This is exactly right although it is usually stated differently. The key term is 'diversity'. Typically inbreeding leads to less diversity while out crosses lead to more diversity. More diversity is interesting but may not be desirable if you are trying to stabilize a strain.

Kingrow1 said:
It is thought that marijuana was very prone to inbreeding in the wild.
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I doubt that this is the case if you consider the species as a whole. Wind pollination tends to support diversity because wind born pollen can travel for hundreds of miles before pollinating a female. If you look at one farmers field in an isolated mountain valley in Afghanistan there is probably 100% inbreeding but if you look at the species over its entire distribution, wind pollination allows for parents to be maximally geographically separated producing maximum possible diversity.

Another factor in this is that typically in the wild male plants release pollen before the females growing along side of them are receptive to pollen. Imagine a huge cloud of pollen being blown over the hundreds of miles of wild cannabis in some flat lowland such as central India or northern Mexico. The female plants that are growing where the pollen came from are not receptive yet but females in other locations may be.
 
DirtyEyeball696

DirtyEyeball696

Well-Known Member
Get a male & cross it with a strong pheno female. Using female pollen from a stressed hermaphodited plant is only going to increase the chances that any offspring will be very unstable & only going to revert back to the same thing you had before. Unstable genetics


I love the coco!
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
I.G.Rowdit said:
And you probably never will.
In order to produce feminized seed we inadvertently select for plants that can easily become hermaphrodites. This tendency is passed on in some form to all of the offspring of a feminized strain. So all feminized seeds probably contain the genes that will produce hermaphrodism under some conditions. What varies within strains is the tendency to spontaneously form hermaphrodites. Some do it all the time, some only occasionally when stressed.

Imagine the opposite case, a plant that no matter how you shock, treat or mistreat it, it will not produce male flowers. This plant will never be a parent of a feminized strain and so it will never have a chance to pass on it's genes that completely suppress hermaphrodism.

There is some hope for future advances in this area. The Cannabis genome has been sequenced, so in time someone will figure out which genes are involved in the tendency to produce hermaphrodites. At that point it may be possible to induce hermaphrodism selectively without creating a strain that has a tendency to produce hermaphrodites spontaneously.



This is exactly right although it is usually stated differently. The key term is 'diversity'. Typically inbreeding leads to less diversity while out crosses lead to more diversity. More diversity is interesting but may not be desirable if you are trying to stabilize a strain.



I doubt that this is the case if you consider the species as a whole. Wind pollination tends to support diversity because wind born pollen can travel for hundreds of miles before pollinating a female. If you look at one farmers field in an isolated mountain valley in Afghanistan there is probably 100% inbreeding but if you look at the species over its entire distribution, wind pollination allows for parents to be maximally geographically separated producing maximum possible diversity.

Another factor in this is that typically in the wild male plants release pollen before the females growing along side of them are receptive to pollen. Imagine a huge cloud of pollen being blown over the hundreds of miles of wild cannabis in some flat lowland such as central India or northern Mexico. The female plants that are growing where the pollen came from are not receptive yet but females in other locations may be.
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Wild mj also pollinates itself a lot in the wild, some genetics may fly in on the wind but this will be marginal to the local pollen levels, so it goes. Through lots of inbreeding mj has become very unique.

Ive selfed many generations and the yeild was always the same or as close as. Ive mainly had hermies through stress, the better i get the less i see it and the more seeds i have to buy.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
DirtyEyeball696 said:
Get a male & cross it with a strong pheno female. Using female pollen from a stressed hermaphodited plant is only going to increase the chances that any offspring will be very unstable & only going to revert back to the same thing you had before. Unstable genetics


I love the coco!
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Weve discussed the hermie trait as not being genetic so to say.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
The deeper you get into your F# breeding's, The more "distinct" the traits become in pheo's......It's how you find that specific "trait" easier, that you want to breed into your crossings.....



Doc
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Can you explain why its traits would show more in subsequent generations please, is it because they are only crossed with the same genetics making xy into dominant XY or somthing?
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
Your confusing me a little, one bit at a time.

Parents are the key and their parents etc, xy + xy can equal XY.

Dominance is relative to the input, xy can become dominant or so im thinking.

We discussed the hermie scenario as being independant to the whole XY situation and somthing totally different. My reference to XXY etc is just one theory which fits nicely, the other we discussed as independant to sexual genetics.
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First you need to look at it like this X&Y (caps) is considered or better yet as I'm using them, as meaning dominate traits and the x&y (lower case) represent non expressed or recessive traits....

So, yes. An x or y trait can become a "dominate" trait with poor breeding practice...OR proper breeding practice if you are trying to isolate that trait...

Doc
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
I.G.Rowdit said:
And you probably never will.
In order to produce feminized seed we inadvertently select for plants that can easily become hermaphrodites. This tendency is passed on in some form to all of the offspring of a feminized strain. So all feminized seeds probably contain the genes that will produce hermaphrodism under some conditions. What varies within strains is the tendency to spontaneously form hermaphrodites. Some do it all the time, some only occasionally when stressed.

I doubt that this is the case if you consider the species as a whole. Wind pollination tends to support diversity because wind born pollen can travel for hundreds of miles before pollinating a female. If you look at one farmers field in an isolated mountain valley in Afghanistan there is probably 100% inbreeding but if you look at the species over its entire distribution, wind pollination allows for parents to be maximally geographically separated producing maximum possible diversity.

Another factor in this is that typically in the wild male plants release pollen before the females growing along side of them are receptive to pollen. Imagine a huge cloud of pollen being blown over the hundreds of miles of wild cannabis in some flat lowland such as central India or northern Mexico. The female plants that are growing where the pollen came from are not receptive yet but females in other locations may be.
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1: No we don't!

2: Not hundreds and be effective,,,,,more like in the tens of miles.

I have stood on hills in the Swiss Alps and seen clouds of Cannabis pollen wafting across valleys.....this generally disperses along it's route in 20+ miles of travel.......If you have an outdoor grow.... Generally you don't worry about things 10 miles away..
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
Can you explain why its traits would show more in subsequent generations please, is it because they are only crossed with the same genetics making xy into dominant XY or somthing?
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First off F1 is the cross of 2 different parents. F2 is crossing the results and F3 the cross of those results and so on......As you get deeper into these crossings. The pheno traits become more distinct and varied in separation.....These are observations I have seen in my own breeding.....This is a time consuming practice and you need to be dedicated to do it..

Many are not and that's easy to see by the sad strains you find some times.

Doc

Many German Genetic scientists call a simple back cross an F2.....I disagree with that view.
Taking a result from an F1 and backing it to a parent does not express the plant changes I would see in a "normal" F2 result.....
 
I.G.Rowdit

I.G.Rowdit

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
In order to produce feminized seed we inadvertently select for plants that can easily become hermaphrodites.
1: No we don't!
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When you select plants to produce feminized seeds you are essentially creating two groups, those that will become hermaphrodites and those that won't. By necessity, you use only plants from the first group. If the tendency to hermaphrodism is genetically controlled, and there is no reason to think this is not the case, you are selecting a parent population that will pass on the genes for hermaphrodism and you are eliminating the population that will not.

It seems that straightforward to me. Could you explain why you think this is not the case?
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
I.G.Rowdit said:
When you select plants to produce feminized seeds you are essentially creating two groups, those that will become hermaphrodites and those that won't. By necessity, you use only plants from the first group. If the tendency to hermaphrodism is genetically controlled, and there is no reason to think this is not the case, you are selecting a parent population that will pass on the genes for hermaphrodism and you are eliminating the population that will not.

It seems that straightforward to me. Could you explain why you think this is not the case?
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I choose the strongest and most stable Fem I have to do an S1 selfing on for down the road seeds.....I don't use S1's in line breeding......So you tell me how I'm choosing "herming" prone plants to S1 - please? Just what is the difference your getting at?
 
I.G.Rowdit

I.G.Rowdit

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
I choose the strongest and most stable Fem I have to do an S1 selfing on for down the road seeds.....I don't use S1's in line breeding......So you tell me how I'm choosing "herming" prone plants to S1 - please? Just what is the difference your getting at?
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Now I see, we are talking about two different things. I am talking about loading the genetic dice and you are talking about the nuts and bolts of breeding.
 
X

xX.The.Wolf.Xx

Member
People have to complicate their answers. If your using feminized pollen from a female plant and cross it with another female variety, yes you will get feminized seeds and yes you will get a new cross, it will share 50 percent DNA from each parent or female plant in this case. Easy question, easy answer.
 
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