...All Things Vero...

Would you consider buying a VERO after reading through some of the posts?

  • Total voters
    357
kmog33

kmog33

Well-Known Member
JorgeGonzales said:
There is no dog fight. I don't have allegiance to corporations. They aren't sports teams.

I can't say I'm excited about the new Veros any more times or ways than I have. At the end of the day, the data sheets you pasted shows 170lm/W at 37W vs whatever the fuck lower number the V22 is and always will be. You don't think that's valid, then you can't read the data sheets. I legitimately give up.

I've done better than experimented. I've had a well known vendor who uses Cree and Bridgelux and has samples of Citizen tell me he's happy with his testing. He builds more lights than us, and confirms they are pretty OK.

The sad fact is testing doesn't matter, because you can't even get to step one, understanding the chart in front of you.
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Here I cropped them so it's easier for you to read. Citizen 155lpw(not 170 or whatever you made up). Bridgelux 157 lpw at comparable current.




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kmog33

kmog33

Well-Known Member
I get min and max output. But we're not talking about outliers here either.

A typical lpw on the citizen 5000k is 155 at 1080ma

A typical lpw on the bridgelux is 157 at 1050.



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JorgeGonzales

JorgeGonzales

Well-Known Member
kmog33 said:
Here I cropped them so it's easier for you to read. Citizen 155lpw(not 170 or whatever you made up). Bridgelux 157 lpw at comparable current.




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Click to expand...
I didn't make anything up, and you could do with a little less snark when you aren't getting something and somebody is trying to explain it. I make mistakes all the time, but I have a pretty good grasp on this stuff, and this is fundamental stuff you are not grokking. You need some handholding, so here we go, slowly.

As cobs heat up, they become less efficient. Bridgelux publishes specs at Tj=25C, which is completely unrealistic unless it's a streetlight in winter in Moscow. Citizen's numbers are at Tj=85C, which means they are publishing lm/W under much less favorable conditions than Bridgelux. With me so far? Now look real close at those charts, and see how Citizen has two columns. One is Tj=85, and the other is Tc=25C. Guess what? The lumens/W you are looking at is from the 85C column, which is a lot lower than the same cob running at 25C. See the higher number right next to it? There we go.

Here comes the tricky part. You have to multiply 34.6V times 1.08A. OK? Good. You have your watts. Now follow your finger down the 25C column to the 5000K row. Is it 6382? Excellent. Divide that by the first number you got, which was your watts if you remember. That's your lumens per watt calculation.

All of this, like I said, is much easier with the Citizen spreadsheet. The numbers are excellent, and I expect Bridgelux to at least match them in their next generation. BUT THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT. It's about teaching you how to compare cobs correctly with data sheets, so you can say things that are true instead of false. Mission accomplished, I hope.
 
kmog33

kmog33

Well-Known Member
JorgeGonzales said:
I didn't make anything up, and you could do with a little less snark when you aren't getting something and somebody is trying to explain it. I make mistakes all the time, but I have a pretty good grasp on this stuff, and this is fundamental stuff you are not grokking. You need some handholding, so here we go, slowly.

As cobs heat up, they become less efficient. Bridgelux publishes specs at Tj=25C, which is completely unrealistic unless it's a streetlight in winter in Moscow. Citizen's numbers are at Tj=85C, which means they are publishing lm/W under much less favorable conditions than Bridgelux. With me so far? Now look real close at those charts, and see how Citizen has two columns. One is Tj=85, and the other is Tc=25C. Guess what? The lumens/W you are looking at is from the 85C column, which is a lot lower than the same cob running at 25C. See the higher number right next to it? There we go.

Here comes the tricky part. You have to multiply 34.6V times 1.08A. OK? Good. You have your watts. Now follow your finger down the 25C column to the 5000K row. Is it 6382? Excellent. Divide that by the first number you got, which was your watts if you remember. That's your lumens per watt calculation.

All of this, like I said, is much easier with the Citizen spreadsheet. The numbers are excellent, and I expect Bridgelux to at least match them in their next generation. BUT THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT. It's about teaching you how to compare cobs correctly with data sheets, so you can say things that are true instead of false. Mission accomplished, I hope.
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To be honest. I fell like this is all best in practice vs on paper. And while I'm still going to take the manufacturers published info over yours and while you seem to be focused on the temp and environment of the tests rather than the typical flux they are claiming, I would say that in my system the cooling is ideal and my sinks stay cool to the touch always. So the cobs heating up and losing.m efficiency isn't my worry anyway. So making an argument based on which company used a fairer environment seems like grasping to me.

Meanwhile. I have tested both the citizen 1212 70 and 80cri against the v22 and vero 18s and the plants respond better to te bridgelux cobs. The spectrum is noticeably more red from the bridgelux as well in the 4000ks I've tested. I would almost go as far as saying the 1212s perform more like he vero 18s than the v22s when you actually get them into a system running at the same current. Regardless of what the data says and whether the test environments were ideal/unrealistic when they collected the data they decided to publish, in actual physical practice, the bridgelux cobs win.

Citizens work great, just not as good as the bridgelux cobs. Probably a similar difference between the v22s and vero 29s, or the vero 29s and the cxb 3590s. Still going to do better than any hid.


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JorgeGonzales

JorgeGonzales

Well-Known Member
guod said:
at 50 Watt the vero29 has a temp-lift of 0.08x50= 4°C
the 1212 at the same watts has temp-lift of 0.34x50=17°C
the Cree cobs stay in the same range as the vero and nichia is like citizen on
thermal resistance
they maybe cheap but you have to pay for better heatsink to get the same junction temp
and by the Way we have only a handful manufactors of phosphors for leds. and they are all cooking the same water at a CRI of below 90.
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Do you have published data about the Cree?

Here is what SupraSPL said about the discrepancy between the CXB datasheets and the PCT "T...he PCT is ignoring the difference between Tsp/Tc and Tj, if the PCT is showing us lumens based on Tsp/Tc, when we select 85C that is actually a Tj of ~115".

This seems like what is happening in the PCT, and a Tj of 115C at 85C Tc is worse than Bridgelux or Citizen, like I said.
 
JorgeGonzales

JorgeGonzales

Well-Known Member
The amount of mental contortions a human being will perform to avoid admitting they don't understand a topic completely, or made an innocent mistake, is abso-fucking-lutely incredible.

Sorry, Vero thread. The new Veros are going to be stellar. This was not about that at all. Please continue.
 
kmog33

kmog33

Well-Known Member
JorgeGonzales said:
I don't give a flying fuck what plants do, don't choose 4000K next time if you run a Citizen, step down a notch or two in color temp. Big whoop.

What I do care deeply about about is you. Specifically, your data sheet illiteracy, because frankly you are 100% wrong here, no saving face on your part except to admit it like a man. You still not understanding that it's not "my information vs the manufacturer's published info". It's the published info in front of you right now that you posted to show me how wrong I was. I explained to you step-by-step how to read it correctly, and you still think are talking about Citizen vs Bridgelux like I give a fuck.

I hate people saying wrong shit, enough to sit here all afternoon trying to explain it because I thought it was an honest mistake, not intellectual dishonesty to make yourself feel better about choosing Bridgelux. Which is and will continue to be awesome. Again. Not about that.

Oh well. You don't need to understand why you are wrong, but nobody should ever, ever listen to your advice.
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You don't give a fuck about how plants react to different cob spectrums but you're on a forum dedicated to growing them. I use and have tested Cree, bridgelux and citizen 3000k 80/90 cri, and 4000k 70/80 cri so I actually have used and tested all of these. My decision on what to use is based on why actually works best with the plants we are growing.

On top of you stating that bridgeluxs data doesn't use "fair" testing environments for their data to try and claim citizens being better, you are still ignoring the fact that the citizens running at test current, will run hotter than the bridgelux at about 2/3 of test current. The citizens aren't designed to be run as hard as the bridgelux and being run hard is generally where bridgelux is known to excel anyway.




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REALSTYLES

REALSTYLES

Well-Known Member
kmog33 said:
You don't give a fuck about how plants react to different cob spectrums but you're on a forum dedicated to growing them. I use and have tested Cree, bridgelux and citizen 3000k 80/90 cri, and 4000k 70/80 cri so I actually have used and tested all of these. My decision on what to use is based on why actually works best with the plants we are growing.

On top of you stating that bridgeluxs data doesn't use "fair" testing environments for their data to try and claim citizens being better, you are still ignoring the fact that the citizens running at test current, will run hotter than the bridgelux at about 2/3 of test current. The citizens aren't designed to be run as hard as the bridgelux and being run hard is generally where bridgelux is known to excel anyway.




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I'm glad you mentioned Vero running hard that's the selling point for them right along with the price. I'm into efficiency sure it cost more but you get more back in return JMO but who am I to preach.
 
kmog33

kmog33

Well-Known Member
optzulu said:
Kmog33 what difference have you see when compared cri70 against cri80/90 ?
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Plants under 90cri seem to have flower onset a bit faster you're just sacrificing a lot efficiency wise. 70 cri vs 80 really negligible difference in the 4K. Biggest thing I've noticed is buds under 4000k form denser and frostier buds than under 3k. But 3k nugs are longer and express more sativa tendencies. I like a mix of 3:2 4K:3k then buds stay dense and frosty like 4K but elongate which I'm assuming helps yield out lol. I'm waiting on my last 2 plants this cycle and I've already pulled around an elbow with what I've chopped so far running ~320 watts. Last run was all 3000k and did ~370g with 220 watts. Added 100 watts thinking that would be all that's required to get a p out of my space.

Tbh if I felt like shelling out the cash to run softly enough to make it efficient, I'd run all 90cri. But I think I'm going to start by adding ir and uv osrams to my current panels to mess with spectrum a bit more.


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optzulu

optzulu

Well-Known Member
Hmm oke ty for the answer I can get the 70cri version for the same price as the 80/90 cri but the 70 cri has much better lm/w ratio.

I know the difference between 3k and 4k but what drives are the cri
 
kmog33

kmog33

Well-Known Member
optzulu said:
Hmm oke ty for the answer I can get the 70cri version for the same price as the 80/90 cri but the 70 cri has much better lm/w ratio.

I know the difference between 3k and 4k but what drives are the cri
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You're sacrificing efficiency for spectrum in higher cri. So you get more lumens, in a worse spectrum. 80 cri have been proven and tested here. 90 is in theory better, but they tend to lose enough efficiency to make costs rise dramatically enough to not make it worth anyone testing with all 90cri. I have 2 90cri 3000k Crees in my system and I've notice slightly faster flowering response under those cobs and slight accentuation of sat traits(similar to an 11/13 flower cycle)

I will build a full panel out of 90cri cobs when the efficiency justifies the cost of improving my spectrum.


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Evil-Mobo

Evil-Mobo

Well-Known Member
Guys quick question......

What gauge wire does Bridgelux recommend for the Vero 18's? I can't find this anywhere.........

Thanks
 
Evil-Mobo

Evil-Mobo

Well-Known Member
kmog33 said:
18g stranded wire. http://m.ebay.com/itm/18-GAUGE-WIRE-10-COLORS-25-FT-EA-PRIMARY-AWG-STRANDED-COPPER-POWER-REMOTE-CABLE-/271206667004
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/power-wires-and-cables/18-awg-two-conductor-power-wire/535/1715/?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=base&utm_content=WP18-2&utm_campaign=GoogleBaseChild&gclid=CMjs0eyaks0CFVFcfgodsoENUw


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Thank you Sir. Either or, or the power wire for the plug and the ebay wire for the COB's?
 
V

voon

Well-Known Member
Still do not understand the difference between Tj and Tc compared light power between the various different manufacturers .. COB Cree, Bridgelux, Citizen
.. Datasheet BRIDGELUX noted that Tj = Tc and outputs are listed lm to 25 ° C and 85 ° C .. how to reach the same Tj = Tc? Tc is the temperature spread of heat to the pad COB while Tj temperature should be directly on the chips (junction diodes with the pad?) Is that the measurement point is at VERO in close proximity of the chip, unlike Citizen, where the measuring point in another, more distant point? .. I'm in this nice mess .. U can see Citizen linear temperature shift between Tc and Tj
... Tj always increases linearly with increasing TC
So rely on what, how to compare? Bridgelux if Tj =TC the same, is not so important, but at the Citizen for comparison determining Tc or Tj .. by Cree I read that unite Tj at 85 ° C for all models, while it should be the max. operating TC, so even a Cree Tj = Tc? After all, each model COB has different thermal properties (thermal resistance, etc.) and light output should determine the temperature of the chip Tj .. why is it in Cree, Bridgelux Tj = Tc? .. it is thus in fact an reality heat so perfectly spread over pad, they are the same temperature as the chip mat? .. or the whole understand wrong?
 
JorgeGonzales

JorgeGonzales

Well-Known Member
voon said:
Still do not understand the difference between Tj and Tc compared light power between the various different manufacturers .. COB Cree, Bridgelux, Citizen
.. Datasheet BRIDGELUX noted that Tj = Tc and outputs are listed lm to 25 ° C and 85 ° C .. how to reach the same Tj = Tc? Tc is the temperature spread of heat to the pad COB while Tj temperature should be directly on the chips (junction diodes with the pad?) Is that the measurement point is at VERO in close proximity of the chip, unlike Citizen, where the measuring point in another, more distant point? .. I'm in this nice mess .. U can see Citizen linear temperature shift between Tc and Tj
... Tj always increases linearly with increasing TC
So rely on what, how to compare? Bridgelux if Tj =TC the same, is not so important, but at the Citizen for comparison determining Tc or Tj .. by Cree I read that unite Tj at 85 ° C for all models, while it should be the max. operating TC, so even a Cree Tj = Tc? After all, each model COB has different thermal properties (thermal resistance, etc.) and light output should determine the temperature of the chip Tj .. why is it in Cree, Bridgelux Tj = Tc? .. it is thus in fact an reality heat so perfectly spread over pad, they are the same temperature as the chip mat? .. or the whole understand wrong?
Click to expand...
Wow are you really asking this in this thread? Scroll up. Yes, it's lab conditions, no it's not realistic, yes I just got in a huge fucking argument about how to read datasheets and compare cobs.
 
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