Anybody Want To Double Their Yield?- Desertrat's Top and Prune?

Koi2Dragon said:
Awesome info.
I will be using this method for my 5 gallon buckets.
How long after topping/pruning do you give them to recover until you flower them?
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hey koi, post your results here and we can get a good set of results across different grow environments. i don't usually care so much about recovery time. i top any time after the fourth node up until the pistils start forming in flowering.

Dr. Greenhorn said:
ya man, this info is pretty awesome. good to see pictures to go along with it. +rep.
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thanks

crazeehaze said:
nice post.

i just came out of the growroom now and ive done a "staircase" prune as you call it on 2 of my 10 plants that has allready been FIM'ed.
will be very interesting to see the difference :)
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post some pics when you can tell the difference

Hotwired said:
Good for seed growers but not so sure about clones.

Since the clones already grow in a staircase pattern I don't think it would work. Unless the offset nodes were very close to each other.
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the only reason you care about the staircase pattern is to keep the plant symmetrical. for a clone, i still cut every other main branch fan leaf.
 
I dont see who this will "double" your yield. Helpful, sure, but this isnt some wonder-save-all-superman idea. Twice the lighting will double your yield, but nothing else in the known world will double a yield.
 
researchkitty said:
I dont see who this will "double" your yield. Helpful, sure, but this isnt some wonder-save-all-superman idea. Twice the lighting will double your yield, but nothing else in the known world will double a yield.
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twice the light wont double the yield. if your outdoors the sun is more powerful than any amount of lights you put on a plant and outdoors doesnt double the yield. however outdoor plants they are bigger, inpart because they arent constricted to a certain area not because of the sun.
 
I just have been LSTing my girls, and a couple nights ago decided to trim some leaves that were taking light away from the new branches. It may not be a stair-step pattern, but seems to make sense for where my plants are at right now.

Here are pictures of them at 28 and 33 days from germinating. The branching is really taking off.


day 28.jpg
Day 33.jpg

I think the potential of additional light on the new branches can guide the selection of what to prune, too.

My appologies for the stray thumnail...
 

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Newb here, just curious about the biology of the alteration of the plant... because you're essentially making more main colas and increasing weight, would it in effect lower the potency of the bud? Do you have to use more nutrients over the life of the plant versus if you let it grow without topping at all?
 
researchkitty said:
I dont see who this will "double" your yield. Helpful, sure, but this isnt some wonder-save-all-superman idea. Twice the lighting will double your yield, but nothing else in the known world will double a yield.
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1. It won't. Any time you remove a productive fan leaf you lower yields.

2. More lighting does not guarantee more yield. It could mean less if you over saturated your plant and have reduced levels of chlorophyll.

Simple botany folks.....
 
It won't. Any time you remove a productive fan leaf you lower yields.
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agreed that any time you remove a productive fan leaf you are going to retard growth, especially locally, but that does not in all cases lead to lower yield. gardeners of all kinds of plants use selective pruning to enhance the growth of their plants, no reason weed would be any different. in this particular form of pruning the increase in yield you get from secondary branches outweighs the lost yield from the primary cola. this is past being a theory, look at the results.
 
Hotwired said:
Good for seed growers but not so sure about clones.

Since the clones already grow in a staircase pattern I don't think it would work. Unless the offset nodes were very close to each other.
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Good point. Your a thinker. And Rat, sweet thread. Great info with pics. Perfect!
 
desertrat said:
agreed that any time you remove a productive fan leaf you are going to retard growth, especially locally, but that does not in all cases lead to lower yield. gardeners of all kinds of plants use selective pruning to enhance the growth of their plants, no reason weed would be any different. in this particular form of pruning the increase in yield you get from secondary branches outweighs the lost yield from the primary cola. this is past being a theory, look at the results.
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Agreed Rat. Ben is getting pretty good at playing the 'simple botany' card.
 
desertrat said:
agreed that any time you remove a productive fan leaf you are going to retard growth, especially locally, but that does not in all cases lead to lower yield.
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IN ALL CASES, the more fan leaves you remove, the lower the yield. You need to forgo the forum hype and social order with what makes a plant tick.

gardeners of all kinds of plants use selective pruning to enhance the growth of their plants, no reason weed would be any different.
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I do that with peaches and grapes, only to open up the canopy to more light, air, etc. See my avatar, that plant was crammed in with others such that your typical woe-is-me-no-light-is-getting-down-there didn't fit the bill.

in this particular form of pruning the increase in yield you get from secondary branches outweighs the lost yield from the primary cola. this is past being a theory, look at the results.
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I get my yield from where I can get it, which is based on the fact that fan leaves produce it.

What you're doing here is trying to get hits, interest. Mention any buzzwords in a thread like "double your yields with this new fandangled method" and the kids will come running.

UB
 
IN ALL CASES, the more fan leaves you remove, the lower the yield. You need to forgo the forum hype and social order with what makes a plant tick. What you're doing here is trying to get hits, interest.
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psychological projection is such an interesting phenomenon, don't you think? check my posts, i spend all my time helping nubes who have no idea about the rating system. at one out of ten even knowing the system and one point per i'm really going to be somebody in 2047 or something. i have a really healthy ego fed by my life in the real world, in here i'm just trying to share knowledge. if you took the time to look at this thread you'd know: 1 - i could care less about credit, i found this in the old growfaq, 2 - i had a remarkably similar chat with fdd 18 months ago, and 3 - went back and duplicated the results. again.

so, what am i supposed to do? you point to your botany knowledge and i point to pictures. what are you saying? that i did something other than what i'm claiming? how about opening your mind a little and asking yourself just how did what you see in front of you happen, not deny that what you see is real. then we'd be having a real discussion.
 
desertrat said:
thanks. thing is, i think he's right in 99% of suggestions here to prune. had this same discussion with fdd over a year ago. one mind at a time...
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Agreed again. Ben knows how to grow things. But even more important he knows why. Just seems he is unwilling at times to think outside of his own box.
 
researchkitty said:
I dont see who this will "double" your yield. Helpful, sure, but this isnt some wonder-save-all-superman idea. Twice the lighting will double your yield, but nothing else in the known world will double a yield.
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here's the problem with your theory - it's a theory. on the other hand i have five plants of two strains that did double the yield by simply cutting 7 or 8 fan leaves. i'm an r & d engineer and know just a little about how to run an experiment, so i'm pretty confident in the results. and not like i doubled it from 10 grams to 20, either.

King'G' said:
Newb here, just curious about the biology of the alteration of the plant... because you're essentially making more main colas and increasing weight, would it in effect lower the potency of the bud? Do you have to use more nutrients over the life of the plant versus if you let it grow without topping at all?
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mmm..not a botanist...my limited experience says the potency was the same.

cowboylogic said:
Agreed again. Ben knows how to grow things. But even more important he knows why. Just seems he is unwilling at times to think outside of his own box.
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what i learned about botany was in the tenth grade, so i'm not even saying it's a comparison. but i do know how to run a good experiment and i know when i see non-random events.
 
desertrat said:
hey koi, post your results here and we can get a good set of results across different grow environments. i don't usually care so much about recovery time. i top any time after the fourth node up until the pistils start forming in flowering.
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Hey rat
I will post pics when they get bigger.
BTW how did you come up with this method?
Do you know any websites or posts with more pics or info on it?
 
Koi2Dragon said:
BTW how did you come up with this method?
Do you know any websites or posts with more pics or info on it?
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there used to be a growfaq on this site, put together by members, that described the technique under the heading pruning. rumors are the mods are re-working the section and will add it back. probably without this technique, given the anti-pruning bias here.
 
cowboylogic said:
Agreed again. Ben knows how to grow things. But even more important he knows why. Just seems he is unwilling at times to think outside of his own box.
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I'm 100% behind Ben on this one.

Topping or pruning will increase the canopy width, but those techniques are inferior to LST or Supercropping to achieve maximum yields.

I'd like to see some side by side comparisons. Not for me, but for those in need of a demonstration.

I won't do it, because I don't want to lose the yield.
 
the stair step pattern simply means to start at the bottom node of the main branch, cut one fan leaf of the pair, then go up to the next node(where fan leaves are at 90 degree angle to the fan leaves in first node), cut one fan leaf, then at the third node you cut the leaf opposite the leaf cut from the first node, then on the fourth node you cut the leaf opposite the second node cut leaf. continue to the top. what you have left is a spiral pattern of fan leaves making their way up the main branch. you end up cutting exactly half of the main branch fan leaves.
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Sorry, but there is NO botanical rhyme or reason to the above regarding the premise that it somehow increases yield.

1. Also, there is no stress involved in topping or pruning, only a reduction in the very unit that produces all plant tissue - leaves, roots, flowers, etc. This is nothing more than one of a dozen or so forum gimmicks I've seen over my 12 years of posting to pot sites. Having said that, when plant material is removed during its growth stage, the plant usually replaces it. In this case you'll get foliar output from the axis of the petiole nodes. Moot point now, eh?

2. If you've topped above the 4th node, then there is no "main branch" left. Ya just done removed it Willis. A "main branch" aka "trunk" is a dominant, SINGLE, terminal leader.

Based on the postulation that cutting off a few fan leaves increases yield, then cut them all off. Less is more, right?

UB
 
Sheesh,

The anti-pruning contingent are a hostile bunch.

Desertrat, thanks for writing this thread, and putting up with the abuse in a mellow way.

I, for one, appreciate the information you put together. Since I grow in a pair of small cabinets, my veg cycle can be as long as I want (the flowering cab is occupied for 10-12 weeks each cycle). So, even if trimming some leaves in the early stages of growth slows things down a bit, it doesn't really matter, because I have all the time I need to recover. In the mean time, the branching sets up very well for the SCROG.

I find the terms 'always' and 'never' generally out of place for growers. There are a lot of different growing setups, and every decision is a trade-off.
 
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