Are Boosters and Additives Really Necessary?

tip top toker said:

so one of the thoughts that pops into mind is that maybe the canna nutrient aqua flores range are lacking or low on certain things, and that the boost has these included so what i think is the boost working is actually just the base nutrients being supplemented with what they needed more of or were missing etc. I could be totally off on that, it's just a thought, but it seems that it was too effective for me considering the huge amount of evidence that it's not worth it

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I think, right there, you have hit on or very close to a *truth* with this stuff.

Of course, how easy is it for 'whoever' to leave a little something or 2 out of the base nutes, that is conveniently in ANOTHER, however expensive bottled supplement, that makes it complete, like it should have been in the first place.

Wet

Uncle Ben said:

Hoagtech, per post #12, answer my issues and quit dodging them. I have been doing this stuff since you were messing in your drawers. I've seen this (money) biz go from 1 to 2 seedbanks to hundreds, plant foods go from the Mom and Pop plant nurseries to every Dutch, NW American, and English shyster complete with coloful labels, half nude women on the websites home page, hype, and crap that has no bearing on plant health or vigor. I'm here trying to protect the folks from the hoards of shysters and the forum enablers who politically align themselves with the likes of salesmen like you.

This is what it's all about:
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/quickref/fertilizer/nutri_def.html

Focus on "essential versus beneficial" in this paper: http://retirees.uwaterloo.ca/~jerry/orchids/nutri.html

Nutrient antagonism, a very important concept that sales guys could care less about much less understand......... but that every grower should investigate:
http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm

May be focused at farmers, but the THEME, the issues, remains the same no matter what the crop:
Myths and Realities of Non-traditional Products or Programs
http://frec.cropsci.illinois.edu/1991/report1/index.htm

Similiar themes.......

1. Products are advertised as "natural" "organic" or "work with nature". Many companies appear to be linking themselves to the sustainable agriculture movement.
2. The same product may be sold under several names. For example, the paper trail of a blue-green algae product shows that it has at various times since 1973 been sold as Agralife, Agrovita, Genesis II, Planterra, Terra Salvo, Agrispon, Nitro/Max, Reward, Respond, and Soil Inoculant.
3. Relatively low rates of application are used, although cost of application tends to be about $6-12 per acre, as this is what farmers seem to be willing to spend.
4. The product mode of action is unspecified or is a "trade secret".
5. Testimonials are a primary sales technique and sales campaigns usually precede replicated research trials. The decision to buy and use a product is, therefore, often determined by the skill of the salesperson not the efficacy of the product.

Shop wisely kids.

Uncle Ben

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All those credentials and still you have no form of decency towards fellow human beings. You accused of me of being a "pocket drainer" and told me I was just "in it for the money" JUST to get your ever repeated point across.
If I had a debate with someone who started it off "non issues" such as accusing me of being a thief. I would NOT give you the time of day. So keep your personal goals and ill ignore you because you repeat yourself like a heroin attic two days out.

Why is Uncle Ben ignoring my question? show some pics of that grow in your aviator..and lets see what your growing right now?? those are your pics right lol?

Uncle Ben said:

I need a total NPK and micro analysis, what the plant is actually "seeing" to give you my thoughts. Also, it's not that easy - it's ALL factors that matter, not just a few parts. Again, I gave you links in #25, is any one reading them or do you want an easy black/white answer? Sorry, but this is plant culture, there isn't one.



I am networked to a huge farming community - fruits, vegetables, hay, turf, grapes, nuts, landscape material and I know of no one that uses additives. Sugar is often touted as being cool, but only in cannabis forums. If sugar was good it would be sold as a fertilizer.

"They" are where "they" are because:

1. "We are all dreamers and con-men fulfill that dream",

2. Con men are marketing pros.

3. In this biz, sales is all about the power of persuasion. See my sig.

4. It's a billion dollar industry (not really) because con men prey on fools and gullible youth.



Soil, custom mix. For example, just bought a huge 4 c.f. bag of vermiculite from a local lumber yard which will be used in potting mixes to open them up and provide a few trace elements.

UB

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Just so I understand, you only grow in soil?! So you actually don't speak from experiance as it relates to hydro additives. Wow, if so, that bums me out, I was actually willing to chance a grow on your info and you don't even grow in water!? WTF!?
Kind

It depends what line your using.
All your really need is macro and micronutriets and trace elements. You just need them in different ratios during every stage of growth.

Back to reality here, I'll give you a some facts:
If you use RO you will need Cal-mag supplementation with most hydro specific base nutes.
If you don't use roots excelerator your plants will be fine, but with, the roots explode in half the time.

People on boards will get on the 'no additive' kick for a grow or two, they will be all bragging etc. 2 grows later they are back to using additives, just not bragging so much anymore, giving everybody on the boards the impression that they must be crazy if they are using any additives.
I've grown without additives and with, and form my personal experience with HYDRO, I can unequivocally say that: LESS SHIT GOES WRONG WITH SOME BASIC ADDITIVES!
So how about some people that actually grow Hydro with NO additives showing us some pics of their grows, that would be a lot more helpful then this your stupid, no you are stupid bullshit!
I would love to drop the additives out, but I will not do it on the word of someone who grows in soil.

unity what additives would you say are most important?

UB post #27..."You are free to troll and whine about my cause". When you contaminate a thread with negative/antaganistic comments so that you may have a platform from which to spew your disrespectful holier than thou rhetoric, it is you, sir, that is a troll. But, I must applaud you as a troll, you have done a fine job of hijacking and re-directing yet another thread that could be educating those who need help. I'm sure Wal Mart & K Mart are grateful for your support. As they are "good Honest corporatists, unlike the entire unscrupulous (according to you) industry of hydro/nute sales reps.

Here is a 7foot 5inch Vanilla kush veged for 3 months flowered for 9 weeks only used canna part a and b, cal-mag ( i use ro water with 29% h2o2 ) with a few days of pk 13/14 just for shit and giggles. Yield was intense and so was the smoke i use to experiment a LOT with additives for the first 3-4 years of my growing experience now i just use J.R peters hydro blend with some calcium nitrate. 10$ for nutrients and same results as adding all the "extras". I believe it all comes down to in how your growing environment is dialed in and the genetics. And of course your own skill level . Take this with a grain of salt but side by side comparison i could almost never tell the difference this is all hydro of course.

Gonna post some pics of plants grown with just J.R peters hydro blend + a lil calcium nitrate and nothing else and the plants really do look more healthy in all stages of life. Gotta find em first

unity said:

Back to reality here, I'll give you a some facts:
If you use RO you will need Cal-mag supplementation with most hydro specific base nutes.
If you don't use roots excelerator your plants will be fine, but with, the roots explode in half the time.

People on boards will get on the 'no additive' kick for a grow or two, they will be all bragging etc. 2 grows later they are back to using additives, just not bragging so much anymore, giving everybody on the boards the impression that they must be crazy if they are using any additives.
I've grown without additives and with, and form my personal experience with HYDRO, I can unequivocally say that: LESS SHIT GOES WRONG WITH SOME BASIC ADDITIVES!
So how about some people that actually grow Hydro with NO additives showing us some pics of their grows, that would be a lot more helpful then this your stupid, no you are stupid bullshit!
I would love to drop the additives out, but I will not do it on the word of someone who grows in soil.

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Just give your plants some light and just give them the same environment they would have outside and just use the basic nutrients and waterings, the size of your yield has a lot to do with your vegetation length and light and your knowledge of science and facts.


And to hoag, your people are amazed by the $300-400 set of useless chemicals.... have they done a proper grow without them yet? I bet they yield the same. just do the study yourself, 4 plants together in same room, 2 grown with essentials and 2 grown with bullshit. see the differences

suTraGrow said:

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Here is a 7foot 5inch Vanilla kush veged for 3 months flowered for 9 weeks only used canna part a and b, cal-mag ( i use ro water with 29% h2o2 ) with a few days of pk 13/14 just for shit and giggles. Yield was intense and so was the smoke i use to experiment a LOT with additives for the first 3-4 years of my growing experience now i just use J.R peters hydro blend with some calcium nitrate. 10$ for nutrients and same results as adding all the "extras". I believe it all comes down to in how your growing environment is dialed in and the genetics. And of course your own skill level . Take this with a grain of salt but side by side comparison i could almost never tell the difference this is all hydro of course.

Gonna post some pics of plants grown with just J.R peters hydro blend + a lil calcium nitrate and nothing else and the plants really do look more healthy in all stages of life. Gotta find em first

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very impressive, tooo sexy. this post alone should save people money and teach them the proper ways.

Ya i started on cowshit, summer days and miracle grow in dirt. I had some exceptional results too.
Then I wanted to extend my seasons to 4 instead of one by running a simple hydro setup which at the time was DWC in Rubbermaid with 15 3" netpots. I noticed my roots were turning yellow and I was attracting infestation in mid bloom. I was lucky enough to have someone help me who knew what they were doing so we pooled our money to buy a bag of ZHO.

I used under the recommended dosing and within a week and a half my roots literally cracked the netpots. How would I go about replicating this scenario in a hydro system using Kmart additives? Dump Compost on top of my hydroton? what about keeping it synthetic? I cant even find decent hydro-products at Kmart.

There is definitely a purpose for the additives and a reasoning behind the price. And I don't believe ANYTHING I sell is useless. You wanna know why?? Because I hand picked it myself.

If I didn't think a product worked like it should, I would put it on clearance and never buy it again. Its completely up to each and every store owner to choose what they stock in their store.

so, lets clarify a bit.

we have;

A)"The Essentials" a theoretical 3-pack of nutes with all 16 Macro and Micro elements with a proper ratio of nutrients

or

B)"the Essentials" + 4 to 8 bottles of Enyzmes, Vitamines, Hormones & Bacteria + Specialized PK mixes?

so were saying that A and B can produce the same results? and that A is much much less expensive than the B. or the alternative is that B will yield... oh lets say... 20% to 35% more?

i dont know either way i think its a wash... you pay more money get a bit more weight? i think skill and experience play a big roll in the outcome, i also think that B usually comes with a set schedule and doses mainly designed for cannabis so it makes it very easy to use and follow without having much horticultural knowledge, the price you pay is having to buy 8-10 bottles for the same 16 macros and micros.

asaph said:

unity what additives would you say are most important?

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For my RO grows:
Gotta have Cal-Mag, it is going to be hard to convince me that I do not need cal mag while using RO, but maybe ther is a nutrient out there that is complete and does not need to be supplemented.
Love Roots Excelerator! Tried with and without, puts my roots on steroids. Nothing wrong without it, but definitely not as fast as with it.
I use Drip Clean, prevents nutrient build up in the medium, but more important to me, it keeps my resi and lines squeaky clean. Again, don't need it, but makes live easier.
I use Silica, don't think I need it all the time, But I think it is very beneficial when readily available to the plants since I scrog and bend the shit out of my plants all the time.
It also raises my ph proper and I have to use far less PH up.
I use Top Booster during flowering (same idea as pk13/14)
Those are important ones for me, I mess around with a couple more here and there, but I'm not really convinced.
I also do not think that you could put all which is beneficial into one bottle, the plants like different things during different times in their life cycle therefore I have to add some additives during different times.

My grow seems to be doing well. I'm currently using a veg and flower booster as well as myco madness for the roots. Like unity said, you definitely need something for the roots, that is where it all starts.

You can grow plants the way they used to a hundreds of years ago. You grow massive plants most of the time if your skilled either. But life goes on, and there has been lots of research into how to grow crops bigger and faster. I'm not saying buy every additive on the market, just that some definitely work as advertised.

When I first started growing years ago, I began only with base nutrients from General hydroponics (DWC system). My first crop was a big success. With each successive crop I added more additives and had more problems until I eventually dialed in my system with additives. After a few years of running additives successfully I started to pull off one single additive each grow and compare the results. After about 4 straight grows each removing an additive from the previous run I have no measurable difference in yield/quality. I am still running 3 additives so im not completely additive free yet, but my regiment is very light.

Besides my "pesronal grow" I always run a second system with tap water/base nutrients only and it always comes out fire

I know that UB is a grumpy old grower but he makes some damn good points.

1) If additives can increase your yield by 30% why don't they use them in commercial agriculture? Ive never been on a Tomato farm/Vineyard and seen "Boombastic" lying around.
2) Just because an industry is thriving doesnt mean its scientific claims are valid. Look at the vitamin/supplement industry. There is still no conclusive evidence that vitamin supplements make you more healthy and were talking about a true billion dollar industry. (my point- I think?) - http://health.usnews.com/health-news/diet-fitness/diet/articles/2008/12/09/vitamins-and-supplements-do-they-work



Anyway here is a macro of my "Bubba Skywalker" strain grown in tap with base nutrients only -

tafbang said:

very impressive, tooo sexy. this post alone should save people money and teach them the proper ways.

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Are you honestly posting here telling people how to grow Taffy? Seriously?

To the guy above that said PK13/14 only works if you've a deficiency and is a waste of time...its $15 a bottle, and will last like 100 grows...not exactly a money making scam and if it gives me an extra zip per grow even, how is that a waste?

ClamDigger said:

your still with us right UB?
i read here that you were banned, how stupid.l

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BT was banned and I have had run-ins with fdd, been banned, been unbanned and banned again, been given a point for "inappropriate language", had pinned threads (topping) unpinned.....generally harrassed by a stupid little mod punk.....all of his childish power plays overturned by admin. A lot of veteran growers including myself are tired of the bullshit and migrating here..... to answer your question: http://riddlem3.com/index.php

Harrekin said:

To the guy above that said PK13/14 only works if you've a deficiency and is a waste of time...its $15 a bottle, and will last like 100 grows...not exactly a money making scam and if it gives me an extra zip per grow even, how is that a waste?

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Well, if you want to believe you'll get some "zip", then believe, and buy. But, who said it will give you some "zip", a carefully scripted ad? Forum anecdotal evidence, a testamonial?

NPK is NPK although you never did discuss what's in it nor do you understand the concept of Nutrient Antagonism which I linked you to. So, it's all about feelings, rationalizations ("it will last 100 grows"), the cute label, the power of persuasion - marketing. BTW, ClamDigger gave you an excellent response and did discuss plant nutrition.

The only extra "zip" YOU need is to learn how to grow a plant with the most healthy foliage and root system until harvest. So what do folks do? They follow some erroneous forum/Dutch paradigm, hit their plants with too much K and P (i.e. PK13/14), then flush, and induce leaf drop..... the very plant unit that makes what they're after - bud! It's hilarious.

Having said that, we've been down this road before. Some of you are too embarrassed to admit you bought into the scams and wasted a lot of time and money, some don't know better and go along to get along, some just have the money to burn and don't care, and most do not understand nor care about plant nutrition, concepts of nutrient antagonism, etc. They are lazy, need a chart, schedule, a dream......need to be told what to do and what to buy. Many have never grown a plant before...... they just go off into cannabis...... and with every new group of noobs it's the same old questions and the same old dreams of 'BIG BUD man', themes and feelings which vendors feed off of.

As an aside, plants do not need or require outside applications of carbos or sugars, they manufacture their own. Learn what makes a plant tick people.

Good luck,
UB