Are there ANY Christians on RIU?

carl.burnette said:
Adult rational mind.. when did we get those? Is it rational to eat more than you burn & complain that your fat? Is it rational to spend more than you earn & then wonder why your broke?? There are many things we do that are not of an "adult rational mind" I don't think that really comes in to any sort of calculation really. Rational to create a bomb that not only destroys the enemy, but the lands too making them useless. Can't even enjoy the spoils of the war because the lands are glowing for 500 years.
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Most skeptics appeal to rationality in the context of seeking truthful answers. No doubt humans do some senseless acts based on senseless goals, but that is no reason to discount careful and rigorous examination when it comes to gaining knowledge.

Believing in some form of higher power is probably one of the most "rational minded" things we can do. There isn't a nation. people,. race or group that doesn't worship something. It's in our DNA so there must be something to it.

Or the other option is that the 1-2% of the world that denies any form of deity is correct.

That could be too. BUt I like the odds better on the faith side.
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For something to be rational it must be based on some sort of reason and fact. Something that is based solely on faith, dogma or tradition can not be rational. The argument from popularity is demonstrably irrational. If every race and creed on the planet believed the moon was made of cheese, it wouldn't effect the truth value of the idea.
 
carl.burnette said:
Wow.. Im the judgmental Christian. I'm the one that's supposed to judge YOUR beliefs as crazy :) Some people believe praying while focusing on a crystal will work, some people believe that mother nature is the way to go. I wouldn't judge any of them. I will certainly judge my own heart & motives, but not theirs.

OK. Here's a situation. We have been able to send out & receive radio waves for about 100 years (give or take) so, to accurately measure anything in space, the most we can say in absolute terms is that something is 50 or less light years away. (50 years to hit the thing, 50 years for it to bounce back) anything other than that is faith based.

You can argue doppler effect & triangulation all you like, but look at the sounds barrier. & my numbers are approximates so don't jump on me. Just read for now.

It takes say 100 horse power to get to 699 miles an hour. Logic & what not says that to get to 700 miles an hour would take 6.99 more hp to reach 700 MPH (the sound barrier). In actuality, it took several hundred more HP to break the sound barrier.

All our scientific "proofs" are simply faith based on what is perceived as logic. Maybe once your reach past the planets you can fly faster than light, maybe it all warps, who the hell knows. We will never know until we're there. until we made it past the sound barrier (700 mps approx) we were quite wrong.

If you don't like my beliefs, that's ok. I have no problem with it. I wont argue right or wrong. That's between God & yourself or myself. Its very personal & I would never insult someone's beliefs. I may argue as to why "I' believe something, but that's about it. If you want to worship purple squirrels that sing kumbiyah all the power to you.

That's the true freedom that worshipping the Lord provides. & I'm a big fan :)

Burning books, forcing as certain clothing style or food restrictions & forcing your religion on someone is COMPLETELY NOT the kind of Christian I'm talking about. Jesus hung out with the scum of the age then. Prostitutes & tax collectors. He said he came for the sick not the healthy. That's the kind of Jesus I want in my life & that's what I got.

I know you think I'm a nut & that's ok but I sincerely hope that you find the peace that I've gotten from Christ. It's free & if you don't like it or it doesn't work for you, fuck it. Drop him like a hot potato. But don't knock it till you try it :) He might surprise you, in a good way.

Good luck.
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I don't think you are nuts, but I do think that you have adopted religious dogma without asking the most basic of questions, questions that you would never forgo in almost any other aspect in your life. An example question is: why would god create hidden 'unknown sins'? Why is killing something the correct method to appease god for committing an 'unknown sin'. Could there be something wrong in killing innocent creatures.

You started on the right track with the question about jungle tribes and their knowledge about christian lawlessness. Unfortunately the 'question' was full of hidden prejudice such as thinking that they have no civilization or laws to guide them. Many jungle tribes are much more peaceful and kind to their neighbors than are many modern city residents lorded over by theocratic ideology. Many of the jungle civilizations have been in existence much longer than christian philosophy so one has to wonder, did christians learn morality from the jungle people?

One last question: if you and god love me as you stated in a previous post then why am I 'fucked' as an unbeliever? Hava nice day
 
...maybe it could be said in this way:

- Believers follow tradition, so that means aeons of experiences handed down. That is 'truth' to them.
- Non-Believers examine the particles, etc. That is 'truth' to them.

...in my humblest of opinions they should share the playground if they want to play smart.
 
jessy koons said:
I don't think you are nuts, but I do think that you have adopted religious dogma without asking the most basic of questions, questions that you would never forgo in almost any other aspect in your life. An example question is: why would god create hidden 'unknown sins'? Why is killing something the correct method to appease god for committing an 'unknown sin'. Could there be something wrong in killing innocent creatures.

You started on the right track with the question about jungle tribes and their knowledge about christian lawlessness. Unfortunately the 'question' was full of hidden prejudice such as thinking that they have no civilization or laws to guide them. Many jungle tribes are much more peaceful and kind to their neighbors than are many modern city residents lorded over by theocratic ideology. Many of the jungle civilizations have been in existence much longer than christian philosophy so one has to wonder, did christians learn morality from the jungle people?

One last question: if you and god love me as you stated in a previous post then why am I 'fucked' as an unbeliever? Hava nice day
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I don't knowhow to break up a quote, sorry hope this makes sense. When I said your fucked, I mean if my beliefs are correct, without God's approval your toast. This is my opinion based on what I believe to be true in the bible. I could be wrong, thats why I said I don't judge anyone. I have no idea what others are going to do I just know what my faith leads me to believe. I didn't mean it harsh. Its just how I talk. I guess the better way to say it is that I believe that when we die, we are held accountable for what we've done. I believe that the death of Christ was the punishment for my sins & for anyone else's who calls on his name to be saved. It doesn't mean Im correct, I believe I am, but I really won't know for sure till I get there. Based on that, my beliefs are that if you do not accept Jesus, then God will find you unacceptable & your toast. Once again. THis is my belief based on my studying of the bible.

As for religious dogma, hell, I'm one of the least religious persons I know. I think that 95% of stuff that's done in God's name has NOTHING to do with God. I read the bible & have found that, as I previously mentioned, Love your God more than anything else & do unto others as you would have done to you. That's it. The rest is window dressing. I don't think I said "hidden" sins I said unknown sins. God made rules for the jews & one was no pork.. I have no idea why, its his rules. Ask him.

Anyways

I believe that the reason God sent his Son to die as the final sacrifice was because of religious dogma & people following the letter of the law. I accidentally ate pig & now Im going to hell. I don't believe that's what God meant when he made the rules up. As for why innocent had to die to cover sins? Once again. I have no idea, I didn't make the rules, I just decided to follow them. It could have to do with Yin/Yang.. balance in the universe etc. I don't know. That's where the faith comes in & if that faith makes me a better human being & it makes me happy then I have no reason to change it. Question yes, I do that every day. But so far I've not come up with any reason to not believe. I study daily & I certainly have no answers for anyone else but myself. I hope & pray that others find what I have. I hope everyone discovers Zoodles & Salt & vinegar chips (one of my favorite foods.. since I was a kid) but trust me, I ain't putting in on any menu. BUt the combination certainly brings me joy & that's all I'm saying.

Think about it. If we all lived by that simple concept of the golden rule, we would have none of the issues we have now. If you love your neighbor your not going to rape, kill, steal, goto war, yada yada yada. I don't know how much easier it can get. I believe that once you hear the word of God you have the choice to follow or not. My belief is that I choose to follow Jesus. Doesn't mean I burn down the local strip club cause their all sinners. Just means I don't go. You want to go please, have a good time. Forcing your religion on people is IMO the worst thing you can do. Jesus never did it once. That doesn't mean he didn't say "Hey, if you do that your gonna get spanked." He didn't chase down anyone to make them change their ways. He simply said repent & don't do it again. (I am a simple man.. I paraphrase sometimes :) )

I wasn't trying to make a point that jungle tribes are uncivilized. I agree that they have their own laws & belief systems & many long before Christ was around. I didn't mean to say they were savages or anything. My point was that without hearing of Jesus or God from the "new world" (europe type place) they still have most of the same values & conscience that the bible tried to instill in us.

The Golden Rule. It's universal & it works. Almost as if it was planned... hmmmmm

This fits into my car point. You can push the gas pedal down, but without the rules/map/destination you will just go forward into the wall & its all about the end game.

:)
 
Heisenberg said:
Most skeptics appeal to rationality in the context of seeking truthful answers. No doubt humans do some senseless acts based on senseless goals, but that is no reason to discount careful and rigorous examination when it comes to gaining knowledge.

I agree, that's why I study every day. I am by far one of the worst Christian by church standards you will ever meet. Fortunately I don't believe I will stand before my pastor some day, it will be before my God & he's the only one I have to answer too. I have no answers for anyone else but myself. Personally I love the sciences. Every time I study the universe it opens my eyes to the wonder the He created. (something created it, might as well be God). But I am NOT the guy with all the answers. I only know what works for me. I love it, I hope everyone finds it, but its personal to me. That's what they mean by a personal relationship with God.



For something to be rational it must be based on some sort of reason and fact. Something that is based solely on faith, dogma or tradition can not be rational. The argument from popularity is demonstrably irrational. If every race and creed on the planet believed the moon was made of cheese, it wouldn't effect the truth value of the idea.
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The popularity is an invalid argument. I agree. WHen I was writing it I was thinking it was a pretty immature argument. Even the bible says let God be right & every man a lier. THere was a time when it was popular to belief the earth was flat & that black people were inferior. Neither were correct but boy was it popular.

I wish most Christian would fuck off with their judgements. If someone doesn't follow Christ than as a Christian we have no right to judge that person. MO is that Christians probably shouldn't get shit faced & spend their paycheck at the strip club. But non-believers? What the hell, spend away. I;m not going to stand there condemning them or closing the place up. Better to let Him do the work. The golden rule thing. Would you want your spouse spending their paycheck at a place like that? no? they why are you? If you don't follow the golden rule than blow the whole thing! Yahoo! Have a ball.

Once again.. Its all about the end game :)
 
eye exaggerate said:
...maybe it could be said in this way:

- Believers follow tradition, so that means aeons of experiences handed down. That is 'truth' to them.
- Non-Believers examine the particles, etc. That is 'truth' to them.

...in my humblest of opinions they should share the playground if they want to play smart.
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Fallowing up on what Heis said, if the tradition of the believers was that the moon was made of cheese... and this is "their" truth, it makes no fuckin difference. It doesnt matter what traditions say, or what anyone wants to beleieve... the moon isnt made of fuckin cheese! lol! maybe we could accept and adopt this thought if we had not the tools and intelligence to check the moon out, to gain facts about what the moon is actually made of.

My point; it doesn't matter how hard you want an idea to be true, without evidence or tangible proof, you are merely lying to yourself, telling yourself you have truth, when in fact you have ignorance.

In my humble opinion, lying to oneself is never a good thing, even if it makes you feel better.

I would rather be hurt by the truth, than comforted by a lie.
 
carl.burnette said:
The popularity is an invalid argument. I agree. WHen I was writing it I was thinking it was a pretty immature argument. Even the bible says let God be right & every man a lier. THere was a time when it was popular to belief the earth was flat & that black people were inferior. Neither were correct but boy was it popular.

I wish most Christian would fuck off with their judgements. If someone doesn't follow Christ than as a Christian we have no right to judge that person. MO is that Christians probably shouldn't get shit faced & spend their paycheck at the strip club. But non-believers? What the hell, spend away. I;m not going to stand there condemning them or closing the place up. Better to let Him do the work. The golden rule thing. Would you want your spouse spending their paycheck at a place like that? no? they why are you? If you don't follow the golden rule than blow the whole thing! Yahoo! Have a ball.

Once again.. Its all about the end game :)
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I have no problem with your attitude, I just perceive your logic to be a little off. I have said this many times but, I feel a person has the right to believe what they want, to discuss that belief and to celebrate it. Beyond that, a belief has an obligation to show support.

This quote from Sagan says a lot

There is a tendency to belittle, to condescend, to ignore the fact, that, deluded or not, supporters of superstitions and pseudoscience are human-beings with real beliefs, who, like the skeptics, are trying to figure out how the world works and what our role in it might be. Their motives are in many cases consonant with science. If their culture has not given them all the tools they need to pursue this great quest, let us temper our criticism with kindness. None of us comes fully equipped.

The chief deficiency I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarization: Us vs. Them—the sense that we have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you’re sensible, you’ll listen to us; and if not, you’re beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across. It condemns the skeptics to permanent minority status; whereas, a compassionate approach that from the beginning acknowledges the human roots of pseudoscience and superstition might be much more widely accepted


I do have a major problem with this idea --> (something created it, might as well be God)

You are basing one huge assumption on another. I am not sure anyone who is conscientious could say for sure the universe was created, since if we imagine what a universe without a creator would look like, we see a universe identical to ours. But lets go ahead and assume it was created.

The next problem is that of infinite regress. If the universe is so complex that creation is the only answer, then such a being or force capable of this creation must be even more complex itself. This begs the question of, how did this complex being come to exist? Was it created by something even more complex? If not, then was it a product of random convergence? It would seem strange to accept randomness for this level of complexity and not that of the universe, yet to assume creation presents an infinite loop which confounds the problem rather than provide answers.

It would seem very irresponsible to gloss over these concerns with such a statement as (something created it, might as well be God)
 
Zaehet Strife said:
Fallowing up on what Heis said, if the tradition of the believers was that the moon was made of cheese... and this is "their" truth, it makes no fuckin difference. It doesnt matter what traditions say, or what anyone wants to beleieve... the moon isnt made of fuckin cheese! lol! maybe we could accept and adopt this thought if we had not the tools and intelligence to check the moon out, to gain facts about what the moon is actually made of.

My point; it doesn't matter how hard you want an idea to be true, without evidence or tangible proof, you are merely lying to yourself, telling yourself you have truth, when in fact you have ignorance.

In my humble opinion, lying to oneself is never a good thing, even if it makes you feel better.

I would rather be hurt by the truth, than comforted by a lie.
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I don't believe eye is attacking or defending either position, but merely pointing out that finding a way to play nice is a worthy and probably necessary goal. Not to speak for anyone else, but this is what I read.

But I do think it's worth pointing out that the "aeons of experiences handed down" can clearly be demonstrated as riddled with errors, misconceptions, false knowledge, and plenty of other measures that would seriously call into question the label of "truth".
 
You're right Heis... sometimes its hard for me to empathize with others physiological needs. I just get so frustrated sometimes man. It's something i really need to work on. +Rep if i could give you anymore.
 
Doer said:
I think the answer might be more frightening. We had to invent time and now time is our master. It doesn't exist, yet it rules our existence. I'm not going to re-tread my ideas on Now. They are in other posts. Let's just agree that when we die, time collapses for us.

We know the mind is subject to vast and apparently limitless time dilations. Asleep or awake. What if we make our heaven and we make our hell? It's quite common to hear reports about "my entire life flashed in front of me." More incredible time dilation. "Time stood still while the accident happen." On an on, we live in elastic preception, and to make sense of that, we invented time.

We also know the brain releases all it's dopamine, and other chemicals at death which can make a pleasure dream or mixed with fear can make a hellish dream. What if, with the proper knowledge and training, that last micosecond of death dream can be Eternity, thru time dilation?
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I have never, not once had time-derangement sensations unless they were brought on by drugs. So I must exclude myself from the "we". cn
 
cannabineer said:
I have never, not once had time-derangement sensations unless they were brought on by drugs. So I must exclude myself from the "we". cn
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I just have to challenge that. How long do your dreams take? Clockwork? No. And perhaps you do have an internal clock, but are you saying you never think earlier or later than your watch? Been coldcocked? Breath knocked out?

How about movies, do you look at your watch? Good ones seem shorter? Boring ones, OMG!! Shoot myself. :)

You may indeed be so totally wired to TIME that you have never even thought about it. But, it isn't so, really, is it? Just curious.
 
cannabineer said:
I have never, not once had time-derangement sensations unless they were brought on by drugs. So I must exclude myself from the "we". cn
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Here we go again, Neer ;) I've experienced this phenomena several times; in car accidents, fights, and a few other life & death close calls. There was a interesting Nova where David Eagleman ran some experiments on this very phenomena, check it out:

[video=youtube;FkFNifsaxhg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkFNifsaxhg[/video]
 
I think doer has a solid premise and interesting hypothesis. I have not experienced drastic differences in my rate of continuity, but I certainly experience subtle and mild differences. I also take into consideration that physicists seem to have no reservations making this assumption. That is, the assumption that consciousness can interpret time at different rates.

Its most likely that when our brain dies the engine which drives our consciousness dies, but we are talking about that last instant when the brain is still alive. If we enter a dream-like state coupled with having it seem like eternity, the theme of the dream could depend on our emotion at death. Were we at peace? Scared? Ashamed? What opinion of ourselves did our collective decisions and conduct leave us with? What emotion do we deserve? In essence this would make heaven and hell real, with the judgment and sentence being carried out by ourselves instead of god.

Sounds like a great plot for a twilight zone episode, and I say that with no disrespect to the idea.

One reservation for considering this to be reality would be that people who have died and come back describe nothing like this. As far as I am aware, we have bright lights and floating consciousness, but no accounts of dreams of heaven/hell in the sense described here.
 
Doer said:
I just have to challenge that. How long do your dreams take? Clockwork? No. And perhaps you do have an internal clock, but are you saying you never think earlier or later than your watch? Been coldcocked? Breath knocked out?

How about movies, do you look at your watch? Good ones seem shorter? Boring ones, OMG!! Shoot myself. :)

You may indeed be so totally wired to TIME that you have never even thought about it. But, it isn't so, really, is it? Just curious.
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Doer, my timesense can be as much as half or twice real, but I don't think you mean that. You're describing compressions and dilations of tenfold or greater. Even in situations where I feared for my life and had every single one of my Oh Shit receptors fire as one ... I didn't notice any remarkable time-perception effect. Never been cold-cocked, thank goodness ... or hot-cocked either. :bigjoint:

Dreams are "special category" imo. I have no idea if my timesense during a dream is anywhere close to actual ... I need to dream a good clock one of these days ...

As for my timesense when I am not stressed ... i can count minutes and usually be within one second of the machine. cn
 
Heisenberg said:
I don't believe eye is attacking or defending either position, but merely pointing out that finding a way to play nice is a worthy and probably necessary goal. Not to speak for anyone else, but this is what I read.

But I do think it's worth pointing out that the "aeons of experiences handed down" can clearly be demonstrated as riddled with errors, misconceptions, false knowledge, and plenty of other measures that would seriously call into question the label of "truth".
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...thanks, you're right, even ground.

...the label of truth - doesn't that look a bit like the 'forest vs tree' idea at all? Sure that some info handed down has been messed up. Maybe it's the indigenous roots talking but these old stories have major value.

There's likely around 500 quotes on it. Here's one I enjoyed:

“Myth is an attempt to narrate a whole human experience, of which the purpose is too deep, going too deep in the blood and soul, for mental explanation or description.” - D.H. Lawrence
 
eye exaggerate said:
...thanks, you're right, even ground.

...the label of truth - doesn't that look a bit like the 'forest vs tree' idea at all? Sure that some info handed down has been messed up. Maybe it's the indigenous roots talking but these old stories have major value.

There's likely around 500 quotes on it.
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If we are talking about a methodology for providing answers, I can not say there should be even ground. No doubt there is great value in stories, history, past ideas, religious inspired art and philosophy, but that value does not lie in judging truth. So I would say in most matters other than that of the spirit, there should not be even ground. There shouldn't be hostility or exclusion, but we don't give eons of experience any credit simply for being antique. I gave this example in the other thread, but if your mother was accused of being a witch you would probably favor the truth which examines the particles.

Now if you want to examine questions of the spirit or soul we can give religious history a little more weight. That is because our subject has moved a bit from the realm of testable science and cannoned knowledge and into the area of ignorance and obscurity. It's possible that religious mussing might offer us some insight when wrestling with questions of this nature. But that inspiration must still eventually be supported with reason and substance before it could be considered dependable. If religion provides us with answers that can not be explained, demonstrated and defended, then it has given us nothing meaningful in terms of truth.
 
cannabineer said:
Doer, my timesense can be as much as half or twice real, but I don't think you mean that. You're describing compressions and dilations of tenfold or greater. Even in situations where I feared for my life and had every single one of my Oh Shit receptors fire as one ... I didn't notice any remarkable time-perception effect. Never been cold-cocked, thank goodness ... or hot-cocked either. :bigjoint:

Dreams are "special category" imo. I have no idea if my timesense during a dream is anywhere close to actual ... I need to dream a good clock one of these days ...

As for my timesense when I am not stressed ... i can count minutes and usually be within one second of the machine. cn
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Well let's exclude all "awake and alert" states. if you will. I see those as the special catagory. That includes the timestreching moments of downhill skiing, narrow escapes of all kinds. Thrill. If you don't sense anything, OK, since I really am only using the awake states as examples of the concept.

So, dreams and all sub/un/super conscious states then, are the subject I'm proposing.

Specifically the death dream. In the detailed studies of the death processes, endorphs and all the other consciousness sustaining compounds like serotonin and nor-epheniphrine are release. And in the dream state, outside time is meaningless and inside time depends on the dream, if time sense is present at all. So, it's a relativity puzzle that occurred to me. To the outside world we died, but, can we dream Eternity in a microsecond? Or Hell?

Can you imagine yourself, imagining that? Can your Self imagine the image? Can Self be without even worldly Identity? Ever dreamed you were someone else?

In Japan, they say that being awake is 夢の又夢 ...a dream within a dream. Such a wonder, perception.
 
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