Observe & Report
Well-Known Member
It's not just "Haitz's Good Idea" it's "Haitz's Law"
C.O.B.S.S.L. News and Articles
- Thread starter stardustsailor
- Start date
Wow. ~15% increase in efficiency. SupraSPL I'd love to see a breakdown in your spreadsheet for these V.2 .
Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
The data sheet is calling them the CXB's instead of cxa2 like the press release.. And they aren't loaded to the product characterization yet.
Nice catch on the lower voltage @alesh. That is most likely the best improvement they could have possibly made IMO. That allows us to run 4 CXB's on 1 hlg185h-c1400. They only need to get to 35.75Vf to be able to run 4. I don't know how to digitize and get exact points on graphs, but based on the pct charts for the cxa, and the best by hand I could do with the cxb data...the cxb should be below 35.75Vf at 1400ma even at lower ambients(25c). So maxing voltage for best efficiency and the extra cob per driver than we CXA'ers have been doing. Huge design benefits imo. A 12 cxa light just dropped a whole driver and gained efficiency on every level(chip, driver, cooling needs)
Hope I'm not just in lust and am seeing things wrong.
Nice catch on the lower voltage @alesh. That is most likely the best improvement they could have possibly made IMO. That allows us to run 4 CXB's on 1 hlg185h-c1400. They only need to get to 35.75Vf to be able to run 4. I don't know how to digitize and get exact points on graphs, but based on the pct charts for the cxa, and the best by hand I could do with the cxb data...the cxb should be below 35.75Vf at 1400ma even at lower ambients(25c). So maxing voltage for best efficiency and the extra cob per driver than we CXA'ers have been doing. Huge design benefits imo. A 12 cxa light just dropped a whole driver and gained efficiency on every level(chip, driver, cooling needs)
Hope I'm not just in lust and am seeing things wrong.
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alesh
Well-Known Member
SPD is the same as original CXA3070 -> 15% boost in efficiency. Nice.
SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
Damn, this means I have to rebuild my lamps again. JK here is what we have so far in terms of "typical" numbers
If we assume a higher price for the CXB:
If we get a similar price:
At 2.8A, 16% more light/W
At 1.925A, 13.8% more light/W
At 1.4A, 10.8% more light/W, 12.5% less heat (and as GG pointed out a perfect match with the HLG-185H-C1400).
At 1.05A, 9.9% more light/W
At .7A, 9.9% more light/W
So basically, 10% more bud
Apparently CREE has improved the current/tempVf droop so the CXAs can be run harder. That might allow the CXA3590 to compete against the Vero29 better at high currents.
If we assume a higher price for the CXB:
If we get a similar price:
At 2.8A, 16% more light/W
At 1.925A, 13.8% more light/W
At 1.4A, 10.8% more light/W, 12.5% less heat (and as GG pointed out a perfect match with the HLG-185H-C1400).
At 1.05A, 9.9% more light/W
At .7A, 9.9% more light/W
So basically, 10% more bud
Apparently CREE has improved the current/tempVf droop so the CXAs can be run harder. That might allow the CXA3590 to compete against the Vero29 better at high currents.
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alesh
Well-Known Member
I think the price will be similar to CXA3070. It's been the same with XM-L/XM-L2, XP-E/XP-E2...Damn, this means I have to rebuild my lamps again. JK here is what we have so far in terms of "typical" numbers
If we assume a higher price for the CXB:
View attachment 3354034
If we get a similar price:
View attachment 3354035
So at 1.4A, 48% efficient, that is 10.8% more light/W and 12.5% less heat (and as GG pointed out a perfect match with the HLG-185H-C1400).
At 1050mA, 9.9% more light/W
At 700mA, 9.9% more light/W
So basically, 10% more bud
Mouser has them listed for a similar price.
CXB3070-0000-000N0HAD30G
42:$57.77
100:$50.54
CXA3070-0000-000N00AB30F
1:$66.52
10:$64.03
50:$61.46
100:$51.22
200:$48.66
SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
2014 Nobel Prize in Physics awarded to 3 Japanese men for the invention of the efficient blue LED.
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2014/
The LED story:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2014/advanced-physicsprize2014.
"The light bulb, invented by Thomas Edison in 1879, has a low efficiency ≈16 lm/W representing approximately 4% energy efficiency from electricity into light. ... The fluorescent tube, containing mercury and invented by P. Cooper Hewitt in 1900, reaches an efficiency of 70 lm/W. White LEDs currently reach more than 300 lm/W, representing more than 50% wallplug efficiency."
Of course we know 300 lumens/W is only in the lab, but we DiYers can now reach 220 lumens/W in 5000K (68% efficient)
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2014/
The LED story:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2014/advanced-physicsprize2014.
"The light bulb, invented by Thomas Edison in 1879, has a low efficiency ≈16 lm/W representing approximately 4% energy efficiency from electricity into light. ... The fluorescent tube, containing mercury and invented by P. Cooper Hewitt in 1900, reaches an efficiency of 70 lm/W. White LEDs currently reach more than 300 lm/W, representing more than 50% wallplug efficiency."
Of course we know 300 lumens/W is only in the lab, but we DiYers can now reach 220 lumens/W in 5000K (68% efficient)
AquariusPanta
Well-Known Member
Scotch089
Well-Known Member
And for us low runners... 20%!!! Do I sound stupid for wanting to upgrade? LolDamn, this means I have to rebuild my lamps again. JK here is what we have so far in terms of "typical" numbers
If we assume a higher price for the CXB:
View attachment 3354034
If we get a similar price:
View attachment 3354035
At 2.8A, 16% more light/W
At 1.925A, 13.8% more light/W
At 1.4A, 10.8% more light/W, 12.5% less heat (and as GG pointed out a perfect match with the HLG-185H-C1400).
At 1.05A, 9.9% more light/W
At .7A, 9.9% more light/W
So basically, 10% more bud
Apparently CREE has improved the current/tempVf droop so the CXAs can be run harder. That might allow the CXA3590 to compete against the Vero29 better at high currents.
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
While I agree more or less with your calculations ....
(the new VERO2 has ~ 44 % radiometric efficiency at 1.4A/Tc=50C ,instead of ~40% )
I've to disagree with the prices ..
At least as a led grow light DIYer ...
For my own "design standards" ,CXA/CXB can't be used at any case without an array holder .
( And Cree is all the way ,"supporting" my set "design standards" .
Or to put it in other words ,my set "design standards follow Cree's suggestions ,up to the last word.
At least when working with Cree's products.Same with Bridgelux's products.)
So the total price of cob+array holder should be taken into account.
Still ,if someone asks me ,what you like best as a DIYer ,the answer remains the same .
CXB 3590 may be winning with a "knock -out " blow , in a direct light output confrontation vs a Vero 29 ver.2..
Taking every other possible aspect into account though ,the game changes ...
Vero 29 array wins the match ,by many points far .
Cheers.
AquariusPanta
Well-Known Member
After reviewing different options between BridgeLux products (Vero 10, 13, 18, & 29) and Cree products (3070, 3590), and without taking into account the minor perks of the Vero, it's clear that price and efficiency run in parallel for the most part.
SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
You make a good point SDS, of course I don't expect Cree to support the kapton method. So for you and many others the price of the ideal holder should be included when deciding between Vero and CXA (what is the price of the ideal holder?)
All that said, we have been able to get small quantities of Cree CXA3070 top bins for as cheap as $30 each (Alibaba) and CXA3590 top bins for as cheap as $40. I put the CXA3070s in the spreadsheet as $42 (Aliexpress). So there are some complexities when comparing based on pricing right now.
I agree the Vero2 would be a better comparison against the CXB3590. But I do not agree that the Vero currently wins by many points. But what fun would it be if we all preferred the exact same thing right? And finally, there is no guarantee that we will be able to get top bins of the CXB so the comparison might end up being theoretical for a long time.
All that said, we have been able to get small quantities of Cree CXA3070 top bins for as cheap as $30 each (Alibaba) and CXA3590 top bins for as cheap as $40. I put the CXA3070s in the spreadsheet as $42 (Aliexpress). So there are some complexities when comparing based on pricing right now.
I agree the Vero2 would be a better comparison against the CXB3590. But I do not agree that the Vero currently wins by many points. But what fun would it be if we all preferred the exact same thing right? And finally, there is no guarantee that we will be able to get top bins of the CXB so the comparison might end up being theoretical for a long time.
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
Please let me clarify a detail ,once again ...
(in order not to be misunderstood or not to endanger myself as being someone ditching CXAs ,just for the fun of it ...)
As a DIYer ,I prefer the Vero series ,over the CXA series ,strictly based on designing and building needs,allowances and restrictions ...
As a grower ,I like both the same .They are of almost no difference when it comes to growing with them.
As an electricity company's customer,I would prefer the new CXB series ,over the new Vero series,of course .
..So, If a was an ordinary grower with no DIY skills whatsoever ,I would love to see on the market a CXB 3590 grow light .
Still ,I'm a DIYer & grower ,so I prefer the Vero series ,over the CXA/B series ,for the reasons
you already are aware of ...
Bottom end ?
Both of these COBs can yield same amount of happiness & satisfaction to a grower.
Cheers.
SomeGuy
Well-Known Member
...
Bottom end ?
Both of these COBs can yield same amount of happiness & satisfaction to a grower.
Cheers.
I agree!
I would also say other cobs in lower series have potential to do just as well if used and built for the correct application. My vero 18s have rocked the party. im gonna make a gain in efficiency this summer with a redesign using supra's suggestion of 6 on one driver at 1050ma. Plus you want to talk about price point and an immediate drop in cooling needs? VERO 18. I ditched my AC even. Had to buy fan controllers to cool properly! LOL
i was hid all the way. Through my own tests I am an led convert. I will say that a more cost efficient option is a CMH setup but you still have to buy lamps etc... A little more investment and no work long term is very attractive.
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
Products | White High Power Array-LED | Feb 23, 2015
Flip Chip Opto Introduces 300 W, 600 W and 960 W CoB LEDs
Flip Chip Opto, a LED lighting technology company, announced its innovative P-Series of high-power LED Flip Chip / Chip-on-Board (COB) products. These high-performance lighting modules are comprised of patented 3-Pad LED flip chips with a Pillar Metal Core Printed Circuit Board (P-MCPCB) to substantially reduce module thermal resistance, and results in lower junction temperature, lower thermal decay and the feasibility of smaller light emitting surface (LES). Our innovation enables designers to enhance “Lumen-per-Dollar” performance by either driving the modules at higher currents for more light output, or shrinking the heatsinks and optics dimensions, or reducing LED chip counts.
Flip Chip Opto's 300 W, 600 W and 960 W CoB LED moules are based on their patented 3-Pad LED Flip Chips with Pillar Metal Core PCBs
The High Power P-Series COBs feature 45x45 mils 3-Pad LED flip chips** and high flux density in small LES. The currently models, P110-12S8P (96 chips), P110-15S12P (180 chips) and P110-15S19P (285 chips) support “Boost” power at 300 W, 600 W and 960 W with LES of 45 mm, 60 mm and 85 mm, respectively. Their high "lumen-per-dollar" value and extremely low thermal resistance (0.01°C/W, 0.008°C/W and 0.007°C/W) make these COB solutions ideal to replace HID luminaires applied over stadium, sport complex, wharf, storage, airport, golf course, farmland and architectural display.
** http://www.fcopto.com/index.php/our-technology
All three models are available for sample purchase. OEM quantities are subject to the delivery with standard lead times of 4 weeks. For more information about P-Series COBs and price, please visit Flip Chip Opto at www.fcopto.com or directly contact sales@fcopto.com.
About Flip Chip Opto:
Flip Chip Opto is a LED lighting technology company, with its Flip Chip Research Center located in Silicon Valley. As an LED lighting pioneer, we are devoted to LED flip chip research and advanced lighting inventions with expertise in epitaxy, electro-optics, material science, bonding processes and packaging. As a member of the Cofan group of companies, Flip Chip Opto benefits from thermal management, MCPCB development and electrical engineering from within the group.
Owning numerous application patents surrounding the concept of 3-Pad LED Flip Chips and Pillar MCPCB, Flip Chip Opto develops standard and custom LED flip chip COBs supporting the industrial and commercial lighting markets with high "lumen-per-dollar" performance, lower LED junction temperature and minimal thermal decay.
http://www.led-professional.com/products/leds_led_modules/flip-chip-opto-introduces-300-w-600-w-and-960-w-cob-leds
http://www.fcopto.com/pdf/P110-12S8P_datasheet.pdf
http://www.fcopto.com/pdf/P110-15S12P_datasheet.pdf
http://www.fcopto.com/pdf/P110-15S19P_datasheet.pdf
Flip Chip Opto Introduces 300 W, 600 W and 960 W CoB LEDs
Flip Chip Opto, a LED lighting technology company, announced its innovative P-Series of high-power LED Flip Chip / Chip-on-Board (COB) products. These high-performance lighting modules are comprised of patented 3-Pad LED flip chips with a Pillar Metal Core Printed Circuit Board (P-MCPCB) to substantially reduce module thermal resistance, and results in lower junction temperature, lower thermal decay and the feasibility of smaller light emitting surface (LES). Our innovation enables designers to enhance “Lumen-per-Dollar” performance by either driving the modules at higher currents for more light output, or shrinking the heatsinks and optics dimensions, or reducing LED chip counts.
Flip Chip Opto's 300 W, 600 W and 960 W CoB LED moules are based on their patented 3-Pad LED Flip Chips with Pillar Metal Core PCBs
The High Power P-Series COBs feature 45x45 mils 3-Pad LED flip chips** and high flux density in small LES. The currently models, P110-12S8P (96 chips), P110-15S12P (180 chips) and P110-15S19P (285 chips) support “Boost” power at 300 W, 600 W and 960 W with LES of 45 mm, 60 mm and 85 mm, respectively. Their high "lumen-per-dollar" value and extremely low thermal resistance (0.01°C/W, 0.008°C/W and 0.007°C/W) make these COB solutions ideal to replace HID luminaires applied over stadium, sport complex, wharf, storage, airport, golf course, farmland and architectural display.
** http://www.fcopto.com/index.php/our-technology
All three models are available for sample purchase. OEM quantities are subject to the delivery with standard lead times of 4 weeks. For more information about P-Series COBs and price, please visit Flip Chip Opto at www.fcopto.com or directly contact sales@fcopto.com.
About Flip Chip Opto:
Flip Chip Opto is a LED lighting technology company, with its Flip Chip Research Center located in Silicon Valley. As an LED lighting pioneer, we are devoted to LED flip chip research and advanced lighting inventions with expertise in epitaxy, electro-optics, material science, bonding processes and packaging. As a member of the Cofan group of companies, Flip Chip Opto benefits from thermal management, MCPCB development and electrical engineering from within the group.
Owning numerous application patents surrounding the concept of 3-Pad LED Flip Chips and Pillar MCPCB, Flip Chip Opto develops standard and custom LED flip chip COBs supporting the industrial and commercial lighting markets with high "lumen-per-dollar" performance, lower LED junction temperature and minimal thermal decay.
http://www.led-professional.com/products/leds_led_modules/flip-chip-opto-introduces-300-w-600-w-and-960-w-cob-leds
http://www.fcopto.com/pdf/P110-12S8P_datasheet.pdf
http://www.fcopto.com/pdf/P110-15S12P_datasheet.pdf
http://www.fcopto.com/pdf/P110-15S19P_datasheet.pdf
