C.O.B.S.S.L. News and Articles

I'm in a hurry ,Have to work all night .

Quiz (for skilled solvers )

--CW: Cool white : Very much blue wls .Much green/yellow .Almost no FR
--NW: Neutral white : Mid power at BL ,Some ambers.plenty of green .Some FR .
--WW: Warm White 80 CRI: low at BL rich at Amber ,5% FR


DR: Deep reds 640-670 : PPS of .85. Max ChA & ChB absorptance .
Transmitance &Reflectance : ~5%% ( <=aka "Only the 'first' and the youngest ,will be 'fed ' " )

R: Reds 620-630 : PPS lower of .8-.85 . High RQE .
Transmittance & reflectance : ~10%

MB : Ambers : PPS close to .75-.7 . Highest RQE .
Transmittance & reflectance: ~12%-15%( <=aka " There's enough for everyone and for the old ones ." )

"White and Red " School quiz ...
Do the combos and imagine what would / might happen to plants underneath ....

(I said ,that ain't an easy one ... ...)

CW + DR
CW +DR+R
CW +R
CW +R+MB
CW+ MB

Same combos with NW and WW ...
What's the effect of each light combo in 3D canopy (bush-tree ) and in 2D canopy
("bedded " / 'layered' plants ,scrog,sog,"roofed" -growing ,etc ) ?

This quiz ,has quite a lot of things to 'teach' ,to the brave ones who 'll 'take' it ...
Basically it were it's 'teachings' ,that made me 'hop off' the "RED 'n' WHITE" train...

"Full White...s ",choo! Choooooo!

SomeGuy said:

Supra,

This is what I am experiencing right now. longer flowering duration. My resin production seems fine for where they are at right now. I also do NOT have the IR from passive heat sinks. Mine run cool constantly with active cooling. My thoughts are to build two pontoons carrying some far red and far blue on them to supplement the high powered white bars. Also adding a lights out IR source to zap them a bit. It has been my intuition that this would decrease the flower time.

Just throwing in my 2cents as I am currently making these observations in my first led grow.

~SG

Click to expand...

For an aluminium heatsink to emit close to 700-750 nm ,at Near Infra -red ...

Then the aluminium has to have a temperature difference with ambient ,
that the heat irradiated has to be close to visible range .(NIR )
The heatsink has to glow dim red ,in order for the heat to be irradiated at 700-730 nm ....
" although people can see infrared up to at least 1050 nm in experiments,Wikipedia "

That will happen when the alum heatsink reaches about 600°C




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/aluminum/Aluminum_Glows.html

http://www.blksmth.com/heat_colors.htm

Positivity said:

So if I've read this correctly..which isn't that easy..lol.

The 3k spectrum is very close to ideal. Obviously not perfect with somewhat extended flowering and maybe extra stretching. (Nope.No stretching ..With red 6x times more than FR ..No stretching.From seed ! )

So all the monos will add considerable challenge in matching the spread, efficiency, and correct spectrum.

(...Play that again,Sam!!!
...
So all the monos will add considerable challenge in matching the spread, efficiency, and correct spectrum.)


So...the best course of action will be multiple type cob sources. 5k, 3k, and 2700k to be turned on at appropriate times.

At least until a cob becomes available with a perfectly tuned spectrum made just for growing.

But then multiple cobs will be an expensive option..double or triple the price since not all will be run at the same time to get the desired power level.

Hence the "simple" 3k setup until a more appropriate cob comes along. Maybe a broader blue peak including cyan and a little more far red.

I know in my grow room things are progressing towards turning "plain" white. My veg room is there...my spectral research cab will soon be there, and my flower chamber will most probably go all white soon.

All thoughts subject to change....

Click to expand...

We're on the same wave ,brother !!!
Just take yar board and yourself a bit further away ...
I'm trying to catch the curl ..
Nice pipe forming ,there !



You're close to the enlighting path ,Posi-Son...
Very close !
Good thinking .

Cheers,bro !

so your saying the heat-sinks probably do not contribute IR. I think there is something to IR after lights out. Flowering with these leds is very unlike flowering w hps IMO. Something is missing but not much... I feel like my end result will be as good or better but that there is still room for improvement. Thanks for all the information you have contributed on here SDS

SomeGuy said:

so your saying the heat-sinks probably do not contribute IR. I think there is something to IR after lights out. Flowering with these leds is very unlike flowering w hps IMO. Something is missing but not much... I feel like my end result will be as good or better but that there is still room for improvement. Thanks for all the information you have contributed on here SDS

Click to expand...

There is..It's called FIR .Far Infra Red .
Non even detectable (by vision,at least ) by humans ,
neither from plants .(not found any FIR sensing mechanisms/pigments ,at least )
But ...
Some snakes have FIR sensors,so that can sense a 'heat spot/trace"(like a mouse ) in 3D space ,at total darkness .
And of course ,FIR are detectable by thermal cameras ...


A solid matter (metal ,glass ,ceramic ,etc ),in order to irradiate NIR ,has to ' glow' dim red ..
That means the Temperature difference with ambient (25C ) has to be really
high . (in order for higher energy photons-close to visble light- to be radiated as heat ) .
Usually over 500°C for 'hard' materials.

(lead ,tin ,sodium,potassium are some 'soft' matter exceptions ,that will glow NIR at less than 500C ).

No NIR ,after leds switch off .
Nothing was heated to that point ,so to glow dim red,for a while ,afterwards.

Period.-

good info. I have been conjecturing that there is something going on with the hps bulb glow that ensues for 5-10min after ligths out. This is missing for leds. Could it be possible that the spectrum emitted from the glowing hps bulb is IR and this helps to speed things up in terms of flowering times? I have thought about this fact since Pos brought up the 730nm "trigger" at lights out. Makes me think that the hps bulb is already doing this for us. There is NO glow from my cobs when they shut off. Especially considering the entire environment runs cooler on led. I am gonna have to cough up for some fan speed controllers finally. LOL

SomeGuy said:

good info. I have been conjecturing that there is something going on with the hps bulb glow that ensues for 5-10min after ligths out. This is missing for leds. Could it be possible that the spectrum emitted from the glowing hps bulb is IR and this helps to speed things up in terms of flowering times? I have thought about this fact since Pos brought up the 730nm "trigger" at lights out. Makes me think that the hps bulb is already doing this for us. There is NO glow from my cobs when they shut off. Especially considering the entire environment runs cooler on led. I am gonna have to cough up for some fan speed controllers finally. LOL

Click to expand...

Yes .HPS does emit NIR for a while ,after "OFF" ..(Depending on ambient temp / lamp brand, I'd say about 1-10 min ).
The inner ceramic 'tube' that contains the sodium & mercury ,does glow dim red ,for after a while,the lights 've turned off.
And of course it affects the plants.Causes Stretching up till mid flowering ,from mid and afterwards that PPS of .85-.87(!) ,is kinda ' decreased ' a bit ,helping the 'normal flowering signal ,to be within reach ,during 12 hours of darkness .It might be a good reason why plants with HPS do have 'normal ' circadian cycles ...
Even though ,average HPS has a PPS of .85


5 min of NIR ,after they go off ,might be enough to drop that .85 to a more normal .75 or even lower !! .
Good point !
Have not thought about it !
Cheers .

Nice to hear my observations are valid. I had a hunch as lighting is my thing.. However lighting for the eye and aesthetics not for plants. I am starting to think the best investment would be to just try the IR 730nm lights OFF trigger in addition to the whites and see how that goes. I think this is what is missing really. I think the cobs probably have enough red in them.

SomeGuy said:

Nice to hear my observations are valid. I had a hunch as lighting is my thing.. However lighting for the eye and aesthetics not for plants. I am starting to think the best investment would be to just try the IR 730nm lights OFF trigger in addition to the whites and see how that goes. I think this is what is missing really. I think the cobs probably have enough red in them.

Click to expand...

A normal incandenscent / halogen lamp of 10~20 W will do the job just fine ...
And probably has about the same efficiency with most / many FR leds out there ..

( Just 'smoke' the bulb a tad ,with a candle...You want dim red light ,to pass through the bulb )

interesting. party bulbs for the grow tent...woot.. LOL jk sounds like it wouldn't take that much to get the effect I am looking for then. Do incorporate this kind of thing into your builds? I dont remember seeing this type of thing on your current one.

Hey folks, interesting conversation and observations on this IR/FR after lights out. Hadn't thought to check my CMH lights at lights out. Was considering them (730nm) until I switched to flowering with the Elite Agro's and they shortened my flowering time by close to a week first round. Then I was afraid to screw around with it in case it was detrimental. I'm a night owl so have never observed what happens with these bulbs at lights out. Will either force myself to get up (lights come off at 7:00 am) or setup some recording with my web cam to see if there's any after-glow mentioned and report back here when I check it. Remember someone suggesting there's enough FR/IR in the Elite Agro spectrum all the time but perhaps this has some merit... Cheers.

SomeGuy said:

interesting. party bulbs for the grow tent...woot.. LOL jk sounds like it wouldn't take that much to get the effect I am looking for then. Do incorporate this kind of thing into your builds? I dont remember seeing this type of thing on your current one.

Click to expand...

No ,I do not .
But at plenty of greenhouses ,that is a common 'technique' used ...
(Greenhouses w/o artificial PS light lamps like HPS .
Only equiped with incandenscent / halogen lamps,
to manipulate the Phytochrome ..)
Very common in the southern mediterranean area..

In places like Alaska, the summer sun does not completely set for 6 months out of the year and gardeners there get ridiculous growth in their vegetable gardens. Should we be copying sunlight as it is expressed at the equator or as it is expressed nearer to the Arctic Circle? How long of a rest cycle does a plant absolutely require? Can we hit them with a little FR and then go back to lights-on a couple hours later?

Mohican said:

In places like Alaska, the summer sun does not completely set for 6 months out of the year and gardeners there get ridiculous growth in their vegetable gardens. Should we be copying sunlight as it is expressed at the equator or as it is expressed nearer to the Arctic Circle? How long of a rest cycle does a plant absolutely require? Can we hit them with a little FR and then go back to lights-on a couple hours later?

Click to expand...

Are banana,pineapple,cocoa ,mango ,kiwi or ...Cannabis Sativa/Indica trees growing -naturally outdoors / in field- in Alaska ,at summer ?

All of your questions are answered by the above ..question...


Tip:
Energy =power x time ...
Time is plenty ...Power ain't ..
Power is provided for 24/24 at Arctic cycle ,but is way low ..
Grass,bushes ,some trees (non-fruiting ones,like pines and birch ) find the energy provided enough..
The rest do not ...


Cheers.

SomeGuy said:

good info. I have been conjecturing that there is something going on with the hps bulb glow that ensues for 5-10min after ligths out. This is missing for leds. Could it be possible that the spectrum emitted from the glowing hps bulb is IR and this helps to speed things up in terms of flowering times? I have thought about this fact since Pos brought up the 730nm "trigger" at lights out. Makes me think that the hps bulb is already doing this for us. There is NO glow from my cobs when they shut off. Especially considering the entire environment runs cooler on led. I am gonna have to cough up for some fan speed controllers finally. LOL

Click to expand...

Hey SomeGuy!

I'd like to give you some personal data and experience that I've collected since using IR or "far red" LED's or "COBS" (I feel that my terminology still lacks ethos ).

I bought a few from http://shop.stevesleds.com/EpiLEDs-Hyper-Far-Red-3-Watt-LEDs-8794102487.htm and assembled them to a ten-inch passive heat-sink, powered by a single 3W driver (ran in series).

I'm currently using it on a single lady and have been using it for two days as of now (two nights of use). I have the IR fixture timed to turn on around LIGHTS OFF, with ~2 to 4 minutes on with LIGHTS ON and ~11 to 13 minutes on with LIGHTS OFF. If this confuses some of you, please mention and I'll try to explain it better. The issue for me is getting the dials, which run on fifteen-minute increments, to line up with one another, while using mechanical timers rather than digital (I could never get them to work. . . ).

Anyways, back to the results. The first night the far red lights were on around ~5 minutes. Next morning, growth wasn't immediately apparent. When the second night passed, after redialing the dialer for far red, I noticed an obvious growth in the overall height (two inches in one night . . .). Keep in mind, she's under two weeks into motherdom (precisely day ten), so growth spurts are expected to take place.

Based off recorded data, i.e. vertical measurements, she's, as of now, ~70% of projected total height for flowering (at day ten), meaning she started at 50% at day one flowering and that she's increased by ~20% height within ten days. I'm a little surprised by this but this is good experience.

I would like to further say that she is showing the early signs of budding (balls of white hairs crawling from within the tops of her stems), which took place shortly AFTER I introduced the far reds, which could be mere coincidence.

Take what you can from this jargon; I'm new with IR and I'd like to share my experiences with others who are new and familiar with it.

SomeGuy, thank you again for sharing with me and others your COB building tricks via DIY Showcase. I threw a thread up a few weeks ago, https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-led-frankensteins-crown.848100/page-2, showcasing my own creations, based off your project. It's safe to say I'm never buying an LED light fixture from a company again. Instead, I'm building my own from now on

stardustsailor said:

Are banana,pineapple,cocoa ,mango ,kiwi or ...Cannabis Sativa/Indica trees growing -naturally outdoors / in field- in Alaska ,at summer ?

All of your questions are answered by the above ..question...


Tip:
Energy =power x time ...
Time is plenty ...Power ain't ..
Power is provided for 24/24 at Arctic cycle ,but is way low ..
Grass,bushes ,some trees (non-fruiting ones,like pines and birch ) find the energy provided enough..
The rest do not ...


Cheers.

Click to expand...

Be nice ...

AquariusPanta said:

Be nice ...

Click to expand...

I'm trying to ..
Every sec,minute ,day ...
Hard job ,though ...



...
Cheers.

The six months of freezing dark kinda prevents annuals from doing very well in these climates. I have not found any of these plants growing in my house either

I Just wonder if nature is the best template for maximizing the potential of growing indoor cannabis. CO2 supplementation can triple the growth rate of cannabis plants. What else can we do?

This is where my passion lies, and the lighting aspect is but a piece of the larger puzzle.

I am all about the lighting... lol and the partaking.

A tiny-tiny designing 'peek' from a project ...
( SDS-VII -2014 )


7x CREE CXA3070 Led arrays,in 3 channels :

1x CXA3070-0000-000N00BB50 (5000°K 70-75 CRI)
4x CXA3070-0000-000N00AB30 (3000°K 80 CRI)
2x CXA3070-0000-000N0YY230 (3000°K 93-95 CRI)

Standard " 14 week " grow cycle .
( Green area : increasing vegetative growth ,18/6
Amber area : decreasing vegetative growth ,increasing reproductive stage ,12/12
Red area : Peaking reproductive stage ,12/12
Purple area : Declining reproductive stage -maturing ,12/12 )


Automatic adjustment / setting of each channel via microcontroller.
{ 3x PWM dimming signal outputs & 3x on/off switching relays outputs .}