Calling All Noob Growers

riddleme · May 10, 2010

jumboSWISHER said:
alright bro, =]
riddle, do u agree its calcium? or could the yellowing, purpling b a sign that theres excess of something else causing this?

it sure could be, my concern is possibly how much of the epsom salts you have used which could be locking the calcium out?

I would do a good flush and stop the epsom salts if you have garden (dolomite) lime crush some and spread it on the soil top before you flush

jumboSWISHER · May 10, 2010

i havent used epsom salts on this plant since about 2 weeks into vegg after she rooted. and i have flushed since then. and i dont have any dolomite =/

EdGreyfox · May 10, 2010

Riddle,

What woud you suggest to supplement the dyna grow/jacks classic mix if you have a plants thats showing some N deficiency around week 3-4 of flowering? This is the plant that got hit by the lights, and I think it had to use up a lot of it's stored energy on repairs since it's sister has been getting the exact same nute mixture and isn't having the same problem. I cut the jack classic out of its feeding schedule 4-5 days ago, but the 7-9-6 dyna grow seems a bit weak in the N department to solve the imbalance by itself. I gave it a dose of my 6-2-2 FF veg nutes today, but I need to come up with a mixture thats going to be both high in N and have enough P and K to keep the flower production going strong while the leaves green back up.

The upper leaves are healthy, but they are a very pale shade of green that is almost yellow. Most of the lower leaves are darker green, and at first I thought it might be bleaching from the lights, but since none of the other plants are showing the same symptoms I'm fairly sure it's a nute problem. I'd post a picture, but I don't have one available.

riddleme · May 10, 2010

EdGreyfox said:
Riddle,

What woud you suggest to supplement the dyna grow/jacks classic mix if you have a plants thats showing some N deficiency around week 3-4 of flowering? This is the plant that got hit by the lights, and I think it had to use up a lot of it's stored energy on repairs since it's sister has been getting the exact same nute mixture and isn't having the same problem. I cut the jack classic out of its feeding schedule 4-5 days ago, but the 7-9-6 dyna grow seems a bit weak in the N department to solve the imbalance by itself. I gave it a dose of my 6-2-2 FF veg nutes today, but I need to come up with a mixture thats going to be both high in N and have enough P and K to keep the flower production going strong while the leaves green back up.

The upper leaves are healthy, but they are a very pale shade of green that is almost yellow. Most of the lower leaves are darker green, and at first I thought it might be bleaching from the lights, but since none of the other plants are showing the same symptoms I'm fairly sure it's a nute problem.

Can you get some pic's up?

Do you have the Jack's dynamic duo?

if so mix them 1/4 all purpose with a 1/4 of bloom to start

and I have also mixed all purpose with the dynagro bloom (1/4 strength on each)

riddleme · May 10, 2010

Most of the folks that read my threads understand that I try to explain the why's of the way things are before I share my research, so let's get into this lumen thing which I have clearly stated has nothing to do with what plants want or need.

Most MJ growers do not get into the technical or scientific side of things as it really is not needed and so for many years they have used lumens watts and the kelvin scale to decide what lights to use. With this in mind they have come up with some fairly good guidelines that work for people to understand and chose lights.

Most light manufacturers print lumens and watts on the package and some print the Kelvin number, but none of them print the PAR or the SPD or the PPFD which are the numbers associated with plant growth uses

I'm going to now quote an actual botanist that explains PAR SPD and PPFD and I'm going to bold the points that pertain to the arguement

There are 3 considerations in choosing lamps for plants, vs. lighting for the human eye: PAR, PPFD, and the duration of both. Let me explain. PAR (photosynthetically active radiation) are the violet, blue, and red wavelengths needed by the "higher" plants that most of us grow. These wavelengths appear dim our eyes even at high wattage or lumens, so "bright" lamps are an eye thing irrelevant to plants. The amount of the colours/wavelengths ROYGBIV in a lamps is revealed by its "spectral power distribution" graph (SPD). The company who makes the lamps will often fax the SPD graph to you if you cannot find it on the Internet. I've got piles of them. By keying in on your browser, "spectral power distribution of sylvania fluorescent lamps" you can see examples of what I'm talking about.

Then I compare these lamp graphs to the "absorption spectra" of plant pigments, namely chlorophyll a, chlorophyll b, and the carotenoids - particularly beta-carotene. Plant pigments will either reflect off the wavelengths that your lamps provide or will absorb them for photosynthesis. They reflect off most of the green, yellow-green, yellow, and yellow-orange wavelengths that just so happen to appear as bright to human eyes. Absorption spectra graphs reveal that violet, blue, and red (PAR) are what are needed for photosynthesis, and CRI of lamps don't indicate what colour wavelengths are in a specific tube. "Cool white" and "warm white" terminology is equally useless! Light intensity in watts or lumens do not refer to how much PAR is available to a plant, and is also irrelevant to how much PPFD (explained next) exists.

The measurement of how many usable photosynthetic wavelengths actually reaching the leaves (its density) is called PPFD, or photosynthetic photon flux density. This is about usable photons. And if the PPFD is not enough in your lamps when the PAR is relatively good, many plants can make up their need for a daily amount of carbohydrate production just by settin the light timer to remain on another 2-3 hours.

This can be a lot to digest, so I'm going to stop here. Again, feel free to let me know what you can't grasp.
Respectfully, John_Z.

I have a lot more I could add but there is no need anybody armed with the terms I just presented can type them into google and see I'm right

I have repeated over and over that you can not always believe everything you read in an MJ forum best to spend more time in regular garden forums, where the info is real and happily shared

EdGreyfox · May 10, 2010

Riddle,

Picture's are a problem (big surprise). The person with the camera has the pics and has actually tried to send them to me several times, but for some reason my email isn't receiving them. I was on the phone with them the last time and I'm sure the mail address was correct, so I don't know what the problem is. I haven't changed any of the setting on my computer or email since i received the last set of pictures, so at the momen't I'm working on the assumption that the problem is either on their end or with the email servers themselves.

I don't have both the Jacks products, just the bloom booster. I can get the other one, just didn't realize it was neccessary if you were using the dyna grow. What's the mix on the second product (I'm assuming thats the all purpose?)?

riddleme · May 10, 2010

EdGreyfox said:
Riddle,

Picture's are a problem (big surprise). The person with the camera has the pics and has actually tried to send them to me several times, but for some reason my email isn't receiving them. I was on the phone with them the last time and I'm sure the mail address was correct, so I don't know what the problem is. I haven't changed any of the setting on my computer or email since i received the last set of pictures, so at the momen't I'm working on the assumption that the problem is either on their end or with the email servers themselves.

I don't have both the Jacks products, just the bloom booster. I can get the other one, just didn't realize it was neccessary if you were using the dyna grow. What's the mix on the second product (I'm assuming thats the all purpose?)?

The all purpose is 20-20-20

EdGreyfox · May 10, 2010

Riddle,

Not sure quite what argument your making above. I thought everyone understood that the wavelength was more important then the wattage/lumens. The intensity of the light doesn't matter unless it's in spectrums the plants actually make use of. As for the par and such being printed on the package, that may be true with flourescents an cfls, but my HID bulbs all came with a spectral distribution chart printed on the side of the box. Interestingly enough, my 400w HPS peaks in the yellow spectrum and only shows about 20% of it's intensity in the orange and red ranges, and less then 10% in the blue and violet ranges. I would have expected the orange and red spectrums to have a lot higher output considering thats what an HPS is supposed to be specialized for.

riddleme · May 10, 2010

EdGreyfox said:
Riddle,

Not sure quite what argument your making above. I thought everyone understood that the wavelength was more important then the wattage/lumens. The intensity of the light doesn't matter unless it's in spectrums the plants actually make use of. As for the par and such being printed on the package, that may be true with flourescents an cfls, but my HID bulbs all came with a spectral distribution chart printed on the side of the box. Interestingly enough, my 400w HPS peaks in the yellow spectrum and only shows about 20% of it's intensity in the orange and red ranges, and less then 10% in the blue and violet ranges. I would have expected the orange and red spectrums to have a lot higher output considering thats what an HPS is supposed to be specialized for.

So you missed it, go back to page 29 (this was at lunch time today, thread has been active) and start at post 284 to get caught up

YOUNG BUCK · May 10, 2010

Growing Lighting Types and Intensities

LumenA unit of measurement of the total flow of light which is emitted continually from a source. One lumen is equal to the flow of light which is emitted from a very small wax candle.
The common 40 Watt incandescent bulb emits some 400 lm (lumen). So the efficiency of that bulb is 400lm/40Watt= 10 lm/watt.LUX= lm/m2, the intensity of light which falls on a surface.Colour Temperature- measured in degrees Kelvin, the color of a light's output in relationship to the degree of heat applied to produce the specified colour of light. Daylight is measured around 5000 degrees kelvinIf we direct all light from our 40 Watt lamp towards a floor area of 1 square meter the intensity of light on that area will be 400 lux, (400 lumen distributed over 1 square meter, 400/1 lm/m2 = 400 lux,) which is a little better than moonlight, but far away from the sunlight intensities we need for growing plants.
The sun gives some 50 000 lm/m2 = 50 000 lux at the earth surface on a clear summerday.
The 40 Watt incandescent lamp is not only too weak for growing plants, it also has too little blue in its spectrum and is far too inefficient. Fluoroscent tubes and HPS and MH lamps are the better choices.
Cannabis needs 24 hours of strong light for the first 4-6 weeks of vegetative growth. Then it needs 2 months of 12/12 hours of strong light and very dark, to flower and ripen. If they get less than 30000 lux they will still grow vegetatively but slower. And they will flower less, if at all.

Light Requirements of "High Energy" Plants1000 - 5000 luxMin. necessary for life10000 - 15000 luxMin. necessary for consistent but sparse growth20000 - 25000 luxMin. necessary for robust growth25000 - 30000 luxMax. Efficiency for Sub Tropical varieties25000 - 50000 luxMax. Efficiency for Equatorial varieties
Plants need 25000-50000 lux too grow fast.

90000 lux Max. Sunlight Intensity on Earth's surface This is too much light, it is not good for the plant.
Plants subject to intensities at this level or greater are at risk of "solarization," whereby photosynthesis is retarded. This can happen at noon on a clear Tropical summer day, especially at high altitudes.

140000 lux Sunlight above atmosphere (Solar Constant)

More advanced theory: Scientific, but has many answers about how and why.

Air Temperatures between 23C (70F) and 32C (90F) are ideal for growth; beyond 35C (95F) can adversely affect plants, retarding photosynthesis, and, in extreme cases, can cause leaf burn if a radiant heat source is nearby.

Calculating with lumen, lux and efficiency:
The cheapest and easiest solution to the beginner is to use fluoroscent tubes. The usual ones are 120 cm (48") long, and give at best 4000 lumen.
*****Ed Note: If you care to get a light meter and measure the light from various distances to your flouros, you'll see immediately that you will want to keep the lights as close to the top of your plants as possible. *****

YOUNG BUCK · May 10, 2010

bigman4270 said:
"lumens matter to plants a hell of a lot when it comes to flowering the more lumens the bigger the buds."

They still don't get do they? lol

Yes its like going back to school.
Maybe i will just trash my hps lamp and grow with some candle light and see how i get on.

riddleme · May 10, 2010

More MJ forum crap, still does not prove me wrong

you really should take the time to understand how PAR is more important

Simply (as I said) google those terms and see what comes up

EdGreyfox · May 10, 2010

Ok, guys, your arguing apples and oranges. Both of you are actually right, because you are talking about totally different things. Riddle is making the point that the intensity (i.e. lumens) of the light are not the most important factor, and I agree. I don't care how intense the light is, if it isn't in the right spectrums the plant isn't going to grow well.
On the other hand, Young Buck is perfectly correct in stating that the more intense the light is, the better the plant will grow. Assuming the bulbs produce the correct wavelengths a 400w HID is going to provide far more usable light then a 100w CFL will. We are used to talking in terms of lumens, and all other things being equal a higher lumen output is always preferable. The key is to remember that you have to make sure the bulb is producing the right wavelengths before you start worrying about it's lumen output.

YOUNG BUCK · May 10, 2010

riddleme said:
More MJ forum crap, still does not prove me wrong

you really should take the time to understand how PAR is more important

Simply (as I said) google those terms and see what comes up

I dont need to look anything up as you are 100% wrong and i dont really care that you know very little about growing and its really funny when you run away when you cant answer a question posted by another user and when you do sometimes i just laugh at the poor advice you are giving out.
My wife does not smoke or grow but knows more than you by learning and watching me and you provide her with a laugh as well.

riddleme · May 10, 2010

EdGreyfox said:
Ok, guys, your arguing apples and oranges. Both of you are actually right, because you are talking about totally different things. Riddle is making the point that the intensity (i.e. lumens) of the light are not the most important factor, and I agree. I don't care how intense the light is, if it isn't in the right spectrums the plant isn't going to grow well.
On the other hand, Young Buck is perfectly correct in stating that the more intense the light is, the better the plant will grow. Assuming the bulbs produce the correct wavelengths a 400w HID is going to provide far more usable light then a 100w CFL will. We are used to talking in terms of lumens, and all other things being equal a higher lumen output is always preferable. The key is to remember that you have to make sure the bulb is producing the right wavelengths before you start worrying about it's lumen output.

You make a nice moderator and what your saying is right

But my statement that plants don't "use" lumens was based on the fact that lumen measurements are mostly comprised of the green, yellow and orange spectrums that plants don't use

and not arguing with you Ed, as you know I love debates, hate arguements, would really just as soon have it end

and honestly would like to see YB come away with a better understanding of lights (cause I actually kinda like him)

YOUNG BUCK · May 10, 2010

riddleme said:
More MJ forum crap, still does not prove me wrong

you really should take the time to understand how PAR is more important

Simply (as I said) google those terms and see what comes up

So everybody that i have quoted FAQ from and the info from grow guides in your opinion is wrong and you think they are all wrong and you are the only one with the real FAQ.
GTFO.

EdGreyfox · May 10, 2010

LOL,

This is almost like trying to referee between my boss and our sales manager when they get into it (about every other day). Neither of you is wrong, you're just not speaking the same language.

Riddle, I know Lumen ratings are based on the ranges the human eye uses rather then those plants use, but it's still the best measure of the of the bulbs overall light output we have to work with without running things through a spreadsheet. Let's say we take a 600w and 400w MH bulb thats concentrated in the blue ranges-The total lumen output is much lower then it is for an HPS light of the same wattage because it has less of the spectrums that make up the lumen rating. However, the 600w still has a higher lumen output then the 400w, and plants under it will grow better then those under then 400w. That's why i specified that "all things being equal" a higher lumen output is always preferable. I do understand where your coming from though, because there are a lot of people that spend a ton of time on maximizing lumens without making sure that they had optimized the spectrum of their bulbs first. I'm guilty of that myself, though i can plead that the bulbs I have are the one's that came with the ballasts, so it wasn't like I got to pick and choose them.

YOUNG BUCK · May 10, 2010

riddleme said:
not what I said, but have your fun

I am not sure what you mean ?????????????????

And no more talking about f*ck**g lumens or lights as its getting boring now and i aint interested.
I am not here to argue unless something is wrong and thats it. I hold no grudges and i never let people control my emotions as i am easy come easy go.

riddleme · May 10, 2010

It's all good Ed, I'm done with it

in the end I can simply say I tried to make a point, it got somehow missed and I'm over it

once the debate/arguement goes to insults I pretty much give up

In a huge sea of misinformation I am but a drop,,,,ah but a drop that brings laughter, there is joy in that,,,,I think?

thanks for moderating !!!!

jumboSWISHER · May 10, 2010

hahahaha
it kinda really doesnt even matter, think of how much info on growing,lights,etc.. has changed in the last 20-30 years. in 20-30 more we all probly will b wrong haha
just grow ur weed people =P

Calling All Noob Growers

This thread should be a sticky?

Yes, it was very helpful

No, this info is already covered

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