"Cap and Trade" Bill voted on tomorrow.

ViRedd

New Member
I'm very curious to how the population will react when prices "skyrocket".

Hopefully we can get this info around to enough people before this bill can wreak havoc.
I think eventually, as our economic liberties erode even further, and when the tax burden becomes unbearable, the people will finally vote the fascists out of power. Hopefully, at that point, there will be a move to rescind the 16th Amendment in order to collapse the power of the central government. Without money, and the ability to hand out favors, they are toast.

Vi
 

max420thc

Well-Known Member
Big Oil’s Answer to Carbon Law May Be Fuel Imports (Update2)
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By Joe Carroll and Edward Klump


June 26 (Bloomberg) -- America’s biggest oil companies will probably cope with U.S. carbon legislation by closing fuel plants, cutting capital spending and increasing imports.
Under the Waxman-Markey climate bill that may be voted on today by the U.S. House, refiners would have to buy allowances for carbon dioxide spewed from their plants and from vehicles when motorists burn their fuel. Imports would need permits only for the latter, which ConocoPhillips Chief Executive Officer Jim Mulva said would create a competitive imbalance.
“It will lead to the opportunity for foreign sources to bring in transportation fuels at a lower cost, which will have an adverse impact to our industry, potential shutdown of refineries and investment and, ultimately, employment,” Mulva said in a June 16 interview in Detroit. Houston-based ConocoPhillips has the second-largest U.S. refining capacity.
The same amount of gasoline that would have $1 in carbon costs imposed if it were domestic would have 10 cents less added if it were imported, according to energy consulting firm Wood Mackenzie in Houston. Contrary to President Barack Obama’s goal of reducing dependence on overseas energy suppliers, the bill would incent U.S. refiners to import more fuel, said Clayton Mahaffey, an analyst at RedChip Cos. in Maitland, Florida.
“They’ll be searching the globe for refined products that don’t carry the same level of carbon costs,” said Mahaffey, a former Exxon Corp. refinery manager.
Prices Seen Rising
The equivalent of one in six U.S. refineries probably would close by 2020 as the cost of carbon allowances erases profits, according to the American Petroleum Institute, a Washington trade group known as API. Carbon permits would add 77 cents a gallon to the price of gasoline, said Russell Jones, the API’s senior economic adviser.
“Because it’s going to be more expensive to produce the stuff, refiners will slow down production and cut back on inventories to squeeze every penny of profit they can from the system,” said Geoffrey Styles, founder of GSW Strategy Group LLC in Vienna, Virginia. “We will end up with less domestic product on the market and a greater reliance on imports, all of which means higher, more volatile prices.”
U.S. motorists, already facing the steepest jump in gasoline prices in 18 years, would bear the brunt as refiners pass on added costs, Exxon Mobil Corp. Chief Executive Officer Rex Tillerson told reporters after a May 27 meeting in Dallas.
Democrats in the House plan to bring the climate bill to a vote as soon as today. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat, stopped short of predicting victory at a press conference yesterday, saying she was making progress in building support for the bill.
Carbon Allowances
“U.S. refineries get 2 percent of allowances to cover any increases in costs they may incur,” said Drew Hammill, a spokesman for Pelosi.
Drivers, airlines and trucking companies would pay an additional $178 billion annually, or about $560 for each man, woman and child in the U.S., according to the API, whose 400 members include Irving, Texas-based Exxon Mobil and the U.S. unit of Royal Dutch Shell Plc, Europe’s largest oil company.
“That kind of price impact would significantly hurt the competitiveness of U.S. refiners versus importers,” said Glenn McGinnis, chief executive officer at Arizona Clean Fuels Yuma, a Phoenix-based company that’s attempting to build the nation’s first new refinery in three decades.
Such estimates and talk of rising imports are scare tactics that oil companies are using to wheedle concessions from lawmakers, said John Coequyt, the Sierra Club’s chief lobbyist in Washington. Refiners are trying to gain relief on carbon- permit costs that’s meant for manufacturers such as steelmakers that are threatened by foreign competition, he said.
‘Saber Rattling’
“It’s definitely saber rattling, and it’s a hell of a threat,” Coequyt said. “The strategic value of this is pretty obvious. They want to qualify for rebates under the competitiveness test, which of course they do not.”
GSW’s Styles, a former Texaco Inc. refinery and trading manager, said the risks are real. Plants unable to turn a profit under the new rules would be closed, he said.
The permit-cost imbalance would open the door for overseas refiners, such as India’s Reliance Industries Ltd., owner of the world’s largest crude-processing complex, to ship more fuel to U.S. oil companies, said Bill Holbrook, spokesman for the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association in Washington.
“It’s going to give domestic refiners a distinct disadvantage,” said Holbrook, whose trade group represents such fuel makers as Chevron Corp. and Valero Energy Corp.
Acquisitions Possible
Companies such as San Antonio-based Valero, the biggest U.S. refiner, will respond by stepping up efforts to acquire overseas plants that can ship fuel to their home market, said Brian Youngberg, an analyst at Edward Jones & Co. in Des Peres, Missouri. Valero said last week that it will continue to seek acquisition opportunities after Total SA bought the stake it had agreed to purchase in a Netherlands refining venture.
Carbon costs will stress fuel makers already coping with slumping fuel demand and higher costs to meet a federal mandate for increased ethanol use, said Roger Ihne, an energy client portfolio leader at Deloitte Consulting in Houston. Stricter mileage standards that take effect in 2011 will squeeze demand further, he said.
About 2 million barrels of daily U.S. refining capacity will shut down because carbon costs will be several times the operating profits for some plants, Ihne said. That’s equivalent to 12 percent of the nation’s fuel-making capacity. Jones, the API economist, said there could be as much as 3 million barrels of idled processing capacity.
Plants at Risk
“There’s no question there are some marginal refiners that probably will not survive,” said Exxon Mobil’s Tillerson, whose company has the largest worldwide refining capacity. “They may go out of business.” Exxon Mobil derived 18 percent to 24 percent of its profit from refining in the past five years.
Neither Tillerson, 57, nor ConocoPhillips CEO Mulva, 63, said how their companies would respond to climate rules like those in the Waxman-Markey bill. The legislation would cap emissions and create trading of allowances that polluters would need to meet their requirements.
Chevron CEO David O’Reilly, 62, said in a June 11 speech that the bill is “unnecessarily complex” and would be more damaging and less transparent than a carbon tax.
Chevron, based in San Ramon, California, fell 92 cents to $65.95 in New York Stock Exchange composite trading and has dropped 11 percent this year. Exxon Mobil, down 14 percent for the year, slid 83 cents to $69.05. ConocoPhillips fell 14 cents to $41.62, extending its year-to-date decline to 20 percent. Valero is down 24 percent for the year after dropping 21 cents to $16.48.
Reliance on Imports
Refiners and brokers already import 3.12 million barrels of gasoline, diesel and other fuels each day, enough to supply every car, truck, train, airplane, boat and oil-burning power plant in Africa, U.S. Energy Department figures showed.
Those cargoes are in addition to the 9.76 million barrels of raw crude delivered to U.S. ports daily to supply refineries and chemicals plants. Foreign shipments of crude, gasoline and other fuels provide 66 percent of the petroleum burned in the world’s largest economy, according to the Energy Department.
Carbon prices will soar as U.S. refiners compete with each other and other industrial companies for a limited number of allowances, said Bill Durbin, head of carbon research and global energy markets at Wood Mackenzie.
Durbin, a former policy official in the Energy Department during the George H.W. Bush administration, said permit prices may top $100 a ton. Oil companies and their products emit more than 2 billion tons of carbon dioxide a year in the U.S., according to the Energy Department.
“If you can import fuels without the same carbon costs as domestic refiners, you will have an advantage,” Durbin said. “Does that open the door for offshore refiners? I think it does.”
To contact the reporters on this story: Joe Carroll in Chicago at jcarroll8@bloomberg.net; Edward Klump in Houston at eklump@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: June 26, 2009 16:18 EDT
 

max420thc

Well-Known Member
Big Oil’s Answer to Carbon Law May Be Fuel Imports (Update2)
Share | Email | Print | A A A


By Joe Carroll and Edward Klump


June 26 (Bloomberg) -- America’s biggest oil companies will probably cope with U.S. carbon legislation by closing fuel plants, cutting capital spending and increasing imports.
Under the Waxman-Markey climate bill that may be voted on today by the U.S. House, refiners would have to buy allowances for carbon dioxide spewed from their plants and from vehicles when motorists burn their fuel. Imports would need permits only for the latter, which ConocoPhillips Chief Executive Officer Jim Mulva said would create a competitive imbalance.
“It will lead to the opportunity for foreign sources to bring in transportation fuels at a lower cost, which will have an adverse impact to our industry, potential shutdown of refineries and investment and, ultimately, employment,” Mulva said in a June 16 interview in Detroit. Houston-based ConocoPhillips has the second-largest U.S. refining capacity.
The same amount of gasoline that would have $1 in carbon costs imposed if it were domestic would have 10 cents less added if it were imported, according to energy consulting firm Wood Mackenzie in Houston. Contrary to President Barack Obama’s goal of reducing dependence on overseas energy suppliers, the bill would incent U.S. refiners to import more fuel, said Clayton Mahaffey, an analyst at RedChip Cos. in Maitland, Florida.
“They’ll be searching the globe for refined products that don’t carry the same level of carbon costs,” said Mahaffey, a former Exxon Corp. refinery manager.
Prices Seen Rising
The equivalent of one in six U.S. refineries probably would close by 2020 as the cost of carbon allowances erases profits, according to the American Petroleum Institute, a Washington trade group known as API. Carbon permits would add 77 cents a gallon to the price of gasoline, said Russell Jones, the API’s senior economic adviser.
“Because it’s going to be more expensive to produce the stuff, refiners will slow down production and cut back on inventories to squeeze every penny of profit they can from the system,” said Geoffrey Styles, founder of GSW Strategy Group LLC in Vienna, Virginia. “We will end up with less domestic product on the market and a greater reliance on imports, all of which means higher, more volatile prices.”
U.S. motorists, already facing the steepest jump in gasoline prices in 18 years, would bear the brunt as refiners pass on added costs, Exxon Mobil Corp. Chief Executive Officer Rex Tillerson told reporters after a May 27 meeting in Dallas.
Democrats in the House plan to bring the climate bill to a vote as soon as today. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat, stopped short of predicting victory at a press conference yesterday, saying she was making progress in building support for the bill.
Carbon Allowances
“U.S. refineries get 2 percent of allowances to cover any increases in costs they may incur,” said Drew Hammill, a spokesman for Pelosi.
Drivers, airlines and trucking companies would pay an additional $178 billion annually, or about $560 for each man, woman and child in the U.S., according to the API, whose 400 members include Irving, Texas-based Exxon Mobil and the U.S. unit of Royal Dutch Shell Plc, Europe’s largest oil company.
“That kind of price impact would significantly hurt the competitiveness of U.S. refiners versus importers,” said Glenn McGinnis, chief executive officer at Arizona Clean Fuels Yuma, a Phoenix-based company that’s attempting to build the nation’s first new refinery in three decades.
Such estimates and talk of rising imports are scare tactics that oil companies are using to wheedle concessions from lawmakers, said John Coequyt, the Sierra Club’s chief lobbyist in Washington. Refiners are trying to gain relief on carbon- permit costs that’s meant for manufacturers such as steelmakers that are threatened by foreign competition, he said.
‘Saber Rattling’
“It’s definitely saber rattling, and it’s a hell of a threat,” Coequyt said. “The strategic value of this is pretty obvious. They want to qualify for rebates under the competitiveness test, which of course they do not.”
GSW’s Styles, a former Texaco Inc. refinery and trading manager, said the risks are real. Plants unable to turn a profit under the new rules would be closed, he said.
The permit-cost imbalance would open the door for overseas refiners, such as India’s Reliance Industries Ltd., owner of the world’s largest crude-processing complex, to ship more fuel to U.S. oil companies, said Bill Holbrook, spokesman for the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association in Washington.
“It’s going to give domestic refiners a distinct disadvantage,” said Holbrook, whose trade group represents such fuel makers as Chevron Corp. and Valero Energy Corp.
Acquisitions Possible
Companies such as San Antonio-based Valero, the biggest U.S. refiner, will respond by stepping up efforts to acquire overseas plants that can ship fuel to their home market, said Brian Youngberg, an analyst at Edward Jones & Co. in Des Peres, Missouri. Valero said last week that it will continue to seek acquisition opportunities after Total SA bought the stake it had agreed to purchase in a Netherlands refining venture.
Carbon costs will stress fuel makers already coping with slumping fuel demand and higher costs to meet a federal mandate for increased ethanol use, said Roger Ihne, an energy client portfolio leader at Deloitte Consulting in Houston. Stricter mileage standards that take effect in 2011 will squeeze demand further, he said.
About 2 million barrels of daily U.S. refining capacity will shut down because carbon costs will be several times the operating profits for some plants, Ihne said. That’s equivalent to 12 percent of the nation’s fuel-making capacity. Jones, the API economist, said there could be as much as 3 million barrels of idled processing capacity.
Plants at Risk
“There’s no question there are some marginal refiners that probably will not survive,” said Exxon Mobil’s Tillerson, whose company has the largest worldwide refining capacity. “They may go out of business.” Exxon Mobil derived 18 percent to 24 percent of its profit from refining in the past five years.
Neither Tillerson, 57, nor ConocoPhillips CEO Mulva, 63, said how their companies would respond to climate rules like those in the Waxman-Markey bill. The legislation would cap emissions and create trading of allowances that polluters would need to meet their requirements.
Chevron CEO David O’Reilly, 62, said in a June 11 speech that the bill is “unnecessarily complex” and would be more damaging and less transparent than a carbon tax.
Chevron, based in San Ramon, California, fell 92 cents to $65.95 in New York Stock Exchange composite trading and has dropped 11 percent this year. Exxon Mobil, down 14 percent for the year, slid 83 cents to $69.05. ConocoPhillips fell 14 cents to $41.62, extending its year-to-date decline to 20 percent. Valero is down 24 percent for the year after dropping 21 cents to $16.48.
Reliance on Imports
Refiners and brokers already import 3.12 million barrels of gasoline, diesel and other fuels each day, enough to supply every car, truck, train, airplane, boat and oil-burning power plant in Africa, U.S. Energy Department figures showed.
Those cargoes are in addition to the 9.76 million barrels of raw crude delivered to U.S. ports daily to supply refineries and chemicals plants. Foreign shipments of crude, gasoline and other fuels provide 66 percent of the petroleum burned in the world’s largest economy, according to the Energy Department.
Carbon prices will soar as U.S. refiners compete with each other and other industrial companies for a limited number of allowances, said Bill Durbin, head of carbon research and global energy markets at Wood Mackenzie.
Durbin, a former policy official in the Energy Department during the George H.W. Bush administration, said permit prices may top $100 a ton. Oil companies and their products emit more than 2 billion tons of carbon dioxide a year in the U.S., according to the Energy Department.
“If you can import fuels without the same carbon costs as domestic refiners, you will have an advantage,” Durbin said. “Does that open the door for offshore refiners? I think it does.”
To contact the reporters on this story: Joe Carroll in Chicago at jcarroll8@bloomberg.net; Edward Klump in Houston at eklump@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: June 26, 2009 16:18 EDT
 

max420thc

Well-Known Member
listen to this lieing mother fucker.

Obama Says Climate-Change Measure Will Transform U.S. Economy
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By Nicholas Johnston
June 27 (Bloomberg) -- President Barack Obama said climate- change legislation passed by the U.S. House yesterday would help transform the nation’s economy and create millions of new jobs in alternative energy industries.
In his weekly address on the radio and the Internet, Obama said incentives to develop technologies such as wind, solar and geothermal power would reduce the nation’s dependence on fossil fuels and lead to a stronger economy.
“The nation that leads in the creation of a clean energy economy will be the nation that leads the 21st century global economy,” he said.
The House voted 219-212 to approve the measure that would limit greenhouse-gas emissions and create a cap-and-trade system of pollution permits while funding investment in new energy sources.
The American Clean Energy and Security Act aims to cut greenhouse-gas emissions in the U.S. from power plants, factories, oil refineries and the fuels burned by cars and trucks 17 percent below 2005 levels by 2020.
The measure goes to the Senate for consideration. Obama called on lawmakers in that chamber “to take this opportunity to come together and meet our obligations -- to our constituents, to our children, to God’s creation, and to future generations” by reaching agreement with the House on a final version of the bill.
Backers say the legislation would save 240 million barrels of oil by 2020 and create 1.7 million new jobs.
‘Jobs Bill’
“Make no mistake: This is a jobs bill,” Obama, 47, said. “This legislation will finally make clean energy the profitable kind of energy. That will lead to the creation of new businesses and entire new industries. And that will lead to American jobs that pay well and cannot be outsourced.”
House Minority Leader John Boehner of Ohio, delivering the weekly Republican radio and internet address, disputed such characterizations of the bill.
The measure will “ship millions of jobs to competitors like China and India,” Boehner said. “We should be creating American jobs, not destroying them.”
Costs associated with the legislation will impose “a tax on every American who drives a car or flips on a light switch,” he said. “This plan will drive up the prices of food, gasoline and electricity.”
Other opponents included the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the American Farm Bureau.
Obama said the measure includes assistance to help businesses and families transition to cleaner energy sources and limits the costs to consumers to “just about a postage stamp a day.”
The Congressional Budget Office estimated the bill would cost an average of $175 a year per household.
Health Care
Boehner also criticized the price tag of the health-care overhaul Obama wants Congress to pass this year. Various congressional committees are drafting versions of the legislation.
“Democrats are pushing a government takeover of our health-care system that will cost at least a trillion dollars,” Boehner, 59, said.
He said the plans being considered also would cost millions of jobs and force at least 23 million Americans to switch insurance plans or doctors.
Obama has said people who like their insurance and doctors would be able to keep them under the legislation he seeks. “The government is not going to make you change plans,” he said earlier this week.
To contact the reporter on this story: Nicholas Johnston in Washington at Njohnston3@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: June 27, 2009 06:00 EDT
 

ViRedd

New Member
"In his weekly address on the radio and the Internet, Obama said incentives to develop technologies such as wind, solar and geothermal power would reduce the nation’s dependence on fossil fuels and lead to a stronger economy."

Until these jack-offs start talking about nuclear power, they can't be taken seriously.

Vi
 

huffy420

Well-Known Member
I think eventually, as our economic liberties erode even further, and when the tax burden becomes unbearable, the people will finally vote the fascists out of power. Hopefully, at that point, there will be a move to rescind the 16th Amendment in order to collapse the power of the central government. Without money, and the ability to hand out favors, they are toast.

Vi

Wasnt it Andrew Jackson who said the American citizens should have a revolution every 20 years just to keep the government in check? Correct me if im wrong... Why else would a country give its citizens a constitutional right to bear arms???
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
the founders were brilliant men.
Not all of them, most of them though.

Alexander Hamilton was corrupt however (First Bank of the US)

Though everyone has character faults, despite that he did seem to have a solid grasp on how a nation should be governed.


As far as the revolution every 20 years, that was Thomas Jefferson.

Jackson wasn't quite so blunt with his words.
 

max420thc

Well-Known Member
patrick henry is one of my favorite founders..a man of courage and honor..and a power speaker who could move men to action.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Ahh yes Jefferson said it indeed. :eyesmoke: Thank you for the correction!
Well, I have a lot of respect for the founding fathers. To do what they did takes a big pair of brass ones, so making sure that they are correctly quoted seems like the least I can do.
 

max420thc

Well-Known Member
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=warren+buffet+on+cap+and+trade&search_type=&aq=f#Added

0:37



[TRANSLATED] Warren Buffett Slams Speaker Pelosi's Huge National Energy Tax
[TRANSLATED] Warren Buffett Slams Speaker Pelosi's Huge National Energy Tax

In an interview today on CNBC, billionaire investor and prominent Obama supporter and economic advisor Warren Buffett blasted Speaker Pelosis ...
video lang: getattr(, 'lang', '')
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Video from JohnBoehner

6 days ago 11,290 views JohnBoehner

here is a guy who needs a good punch in the nose..now everyone has to deal with the prick he helped get elected.
buffet however is proffiting HUGE from obama's bail outs. fucking ass holes..the whole lot of them
 

Microdizzey

Well-Known Member
Nice videos guys. Here's one with all the Republicans in the House who opposed the bill:

[youtube]OvwpYX2PKI0[/youtube]
 

Mcgician

Well-Known Member
The worst part is, now that the asshole/"comedian" has been named the 60th Democratic Senator, the Dems now have enough votes for a filibuster proof majority. This country is in for THE WORST changes in modern history! It's honestly dumbfounding to think that there are so many people that things are going well. Joblessness, loss of productivity, crippling energy prices, and mismanaged, cradle to the grave nationalized healthcare are just the TIP of what's in store for the near future. I swear to God it's time for a REAL revolution!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGIY5Vyj4YM
 
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