Dark brown/orange spots

PlantsAreNeat · Jul 28, 2015

ShLUbY said:
wow that lime is ultra fine! like rock dust almost (trace minerals: product like azomite, cascade, gaia glacial, etc...). I'm getting into the rock dust to start feeding the microbes in my soil. especially in my vegetable garden, much more nutritious food.

I'm now on Reverse Osmosis, i just got it about 10 days ago. i used to use city water until they changed the chlorine to chloramine recently which does not dissolve out in gaseous form and also kills microbiologic life in the soil. I personally and never going back to city water, though i did fine with it before. RO will be better for dialing in a nutrient mix, has no Ph buffers in it like tap water does, and none of the bullshit they poison people with like fluoride. I'm not saying you can't grow with city water cause everyone has been doing it for years... but i just believe that the soil will be more active (especially when i get a living soil garden going), and it's easier to know exactly what's in your water. But i'm a soil grower, it's not for everyone but it's what's for me. I've put a lot of hard work into my grow now that i'm a caregiver, i want to give people the best quality medicine possible and imo, soil is the only way to do that. When i go living soil, i will have soil beds under each lamp that never get changed, just add new compost worm castings, and rock dust. Feed with teas. no more bottle nutrients (or very few if needed for a deficiency). but if the soil is built correctly, there should be no deficiencies.

Yeah it is a very fine dust! From doing a bit of quick looking online most people seem to desire a much more fine than coarse dolomite lime, so I went with that one.

I guess I should try and find out what is in my city water before I make the change. Buying distilled water all the time does get old though haha.

My next question would be how much of this dolomite lime do I add to the soil once it gets here?

ShLUbY · Jul 28, 2015

PlantsAreNeat said:
Yeah it is a very fine dust! From doing a bit of quick looking online most people seem to desire a much more fine than coarse dolomite lime, so I went with that one.

I guess I should try and find out what is in my city water before I make the change. Buying distilled water all the time does get old though haha.

My next question would be how much of this dolomite lime do I add to the soil once it gets here?

my product is recommended 1/4 cup per cubic foot of soil... which is about 7.5 gallons. there are 5 tbsp in 1/4 cup... so a good rough measurement is 1 tbsp per gallon of soil. Just use your fingers and break up the top inch or two of soil and stir in the lime. you can make a solution of it and water that in, but i think it's just as effective to top dress and mix it in properly and then water it in. Especially that ultra fine stuff, it should make its way into the soil no problem! and yeah buying distilled water can be a pain, but when you're only caring for a couple plants it's not that bad of a way to go imo.

Edit: i'm also gonna be adding an oyster shell product to my next mix of soil because the plant needs more calcium readily available than magnesium. The oyster shell is supposed to be easily available for uptake, so i picked up some powdered oyster shell by Down to Earth today (Down to Earth beacuse they were out of the Organically Done brand oyster shell). it's an OMRI product so it's probably the exact same thing, just wanted to get my money to a michigan product

PlantsAreNeat · Aug 2, 2015

Here are a few pics of the ladies. As you can see the Blueberry OG is really struggling with browning and spotting. I got some nice dolomite lime and some new Cal / Mag with zero nitrogen in it that I fed them with this morning so I hope they finish off OK. Next time I will use this new Cal / Mag and Dolomite in the soil right away to deter any low PH runoff issues.

They are still looking pretty frosty so far though!

Thanks for all the input from everyone and thanks for checking them out!!

PlantsAreNeat · Aug 15, 2015

Hey everyone, been about two weeks since my last post and the spotting and browning has definitely progressed, however the buds look pretty damn healthy and frosty I must say.

Day 49 of flower.

A couple weeks back I top dressed the soil with some very fine dolomite lime and switched to a new Cal/Mag supplement that has zero nitrogen in it, as my plants were getting that toxic dark green look and hooking a bit on the ends of the leaves. This has definitely helped stabilize the runoff PH to not such a drastic swing, but I am pretty sure it is too late already. Still using distilled water, fed today with no nutes, just Cal/Mag, and Bushdoctor root cleanser.

Here is the Blueberry OG:

This is a no name bagseed:

Here is the Northern Lights x Big Bud:

So as you can see they are definitely all hurting from some early Cal/Mag issues that have gotten progressively worse throughout flowering. Some of the leaves are really bad, and have dried up and became crispy, and with it being so late into flowering I believe it's too late for many changes to happen.

I have learned a lot this grow. Next time I will keep a better eye on my runoff water and how that measures up, and most likely switch to a Reverse Osmosis water system instead of distilled. I do believe these girls are very crowded in my tent as well which I believe has made some of the smaller issues multiply. Next grow is going to be two white widow plants under a scrog with much better space and control of the elements.

I gather I will get some decent buds off this go around, but am miles away from perfecting this craft. That top cola on the NL x BB is fucking huge lol cannot wait to sample..

I have a couple questions/thoughts now.

I have a jewelers loupe, a 10x and 20x, and I can see the trics pretty well, but am finding it hard to tell if any are changing color yet. I want to harvest at the right time, but am totally lost on this part. I read you can tell by the hairs turning from yellow/white to orange/red and that you want roughly 50% of them turned dark. Is this correct?

And if so, what if some of the outter/lower buds seem to be more ready than the main cola? Is it OK to chop those branches off that look more ready or harvest all at the same time?

Thanks for everybody's input and help so far!

Dr. Who · Aug 17, 2015

ShLUbY said:
i would definitely add the dolomite lime to this one and be sure to get a very raw form of Dolomite lime (don't get the espoma shit, it sucks) There are other products to raise Ph, but this is the one I have been having good results with. I just solved this same problem myself with the spotting with that adjustment. I'm not saying that measuring Ph in the runoff is the best and most accurate way to do it, but that seems very low on that plant which was similar to what i was experiencing with my own. The great thing about the lime is it's a soil buffer for your Ph and composed of calcium and magnesium (great!), and most all the soil companies include this product in their mixes, sometimes it's just not enough because it dissolves (especially with distilled/RO water). If you look at Calciums Ph availability the closer you are to 6.5 the more available it is. the farther away you are the less available it becomes. So if your Ph is too far off, it doesn't matter how much of that CaMg product you feed the plant, it's simply LESS available for uptake. calcium is very important in maintaining healthy growth and development of cell walls, metabolic processes and fruit development (buds). Adding dolomite lime to your pot (topdress) you have nothing to lose, only to gain especially since it will balance the Ph of all your pots and they will all be closer to that desirable 6.5 (where calcium is most available) and then you can say ok, it's not my soil Ph that's off if the problem doesn't go away. try adding 1.5 tbsp mixed in to the top of the soil. the combination of dolomite and 1tsp/gal of a CaMg product should solve the calcium issue. and remember damaged leaves will never repair their appearance, once they get necrosis spots they don't go away. but you should see it stop from spreading to new growth.

here is a link to you exact issue. it should convince you of what to do here. http://www.growweedeasy.com/calcium-deficiency-cannabis

I would be cutting all the nitrogen from this plant that you can. See how it's sort of clawing on the big leaves, and quite dark? You're giving her a little too much nitrogen, and assuming your bloom mix has some N value to it but it should be less value than the other numbers, P and K. Also to note, if your CaMg product has an N value to it... get one that has 0-0-0 NPK. you have other products that have nitrogen in them already i'm sure.

Other than that I'd say everything is looking pretty damn good! get some high quality dolomite lime in all the pots and you'll be happy you did it!

New additional edit: After reading the whole thread.....You overfeed them and they burned, Lockout was caused and that was pH related! The way to have fixed that better would be to water with plain Ca/Mged water for 7-10 days and begin feeding AND reduce feeding by 50%. If you feed every watering - STOP - alternate feed and plain water!

Hmmmm,,,Lets cover a few things here ok?

First off...shLUby is correct on the Ca/Mg issue. He is also correct on the High N. I see both of those here too. BUT, do not lower your N to be lower then P or K as that will cause bigger troubles down the road! NPK ratio for Canna is good at a 3-1-2 ratio...3 parts N to 1 part P to 2 parts K.....There is leeway here, but don't get the N lower then P or K....BTW,,,,Canna can use more N in bloom then many synthetic companies put in their products! Don't and I mean do not switch to "bloom" foods till week 3 AFTER the flip to 11/13 (I never run 12/12 - 11/13 is better - try it)

Now then. He does do correcting that will help and in the long term too. BUT, I would approach this problem a little differently.

Lets start with the FF soil.....They work and work well. I would still, if using them, add about a good handful (1/2C) of OYSTER shell and maybe a little Dolomite....When I use Dolomite I don't get the prilled, I use a powdered AG Dolomite too (I farm). You see Dolomite contains a lot of Mg....You could over do it and get Mg tox......Buy the bag of FF and add the OYSTER shell and the bit of Dolo and go from there....You CAN manage Ca/Mg problems with a liquid bottle supplement if you want to......THAT has to do with the folllowing!

Now then, lets talk about pH in soil a bit. When you pH the run off. All you get is the pH of the run off! That can be effected by all sorts of things in the soil going on, or that you put in it. Now this is very important to remember....Properly cared for soil will self pH!!! What happens in nature is that when you water. The pH of the soil swings one way and it swings more then most think. As the plant sits and dries out again. That pH swings back the other way. That is natures way of being sure that nutrient compounds IN the soil are up taken at their best available levels......

Self pHing in soil depends heavily upon the living things IN the soil - The microbes! Using synthetic nutrition does not completely kill off the bio's. It sure does put a hard spank on them! When transplanting at any stage - add some! Powdered or liquid, I don't care but USE them! Periodic reintroduction works wonders too, even with synthetic nutrition. In fact, in testing I've done in my own grow. I find that when using synthetics, keeping the bio heard viable and working helps across the board....

You can make simple bio teas for cheap and use say, every other week or buy (expensive) bio's and supplement with that....
To make a simple bio tea for small scale home use......Try this.

For 3 gallons of Bio tea

5 gallon bucket
Unsulfured Molasses or Blackstrap
Earthworm Castings
2.5 gallons of water (NO -RO, distilled or city/tap) Believe it or not but, river, creak, stream or even puddle water is GREAT!
Alfalfa meal *optional*
Air pump (two outlet minimum)
air stones and lines ...(It would be best to get a flexible air stone and bend it into a circle)

Now set the air stones connected to the air pump in the bottom of the bucket on either side.....
Add the water
1/3 cup of EWC
1 1/2 - 2 Tbl of Molasses
1 1/2 Tbl of alfalfa meal

I don't "bag" my ingr. You don't have too and I don't mind pouring them into my soil.....Some folks put them into their worm bins. I feed my worms enough, so the plants get it...

Bubble this for 36 hrs and use! Be sure to clean the bucket and air equipment after every use.

Store bought bottled bios work too. Use as directed!

Back to soil pH
If you meter soil at anytime other then EXACTLY the same time after watering.....Your going to get different readings! Remember how the soil acts to watering.....the moisture content of the soil will be a factor in just what the pH is.....This begins to make pHing soil an interesting proposal.....Not to mention that "home style/priced" pH "pens" are not as accurate or dependable as lab grade soil equipment...By thousands of dollars!

I would ask this @PlantsAreNeat.

How much and how often do you feed?
Every watering? = Not good! Feed every other!

Net pots = I don't like them, never have.....You get a root mass in the middle of the pot and water simply runs around it and out the side too.....This is called an "umbrella" effect......You have to water to too much run off or let the pots sit in the run off.....I don't like either of those things - at all.....If you have to employ run off - you feed too much! If the maker says to use run off - their padding their wallet from you buying more nutrients then you should really be using!

OK, We have amended the soil before we planted in it. Now we have been controlling the bio heard.
SO - we can simply forget about pHing the soil! It's taking care of it's self as we take care if it.....

Lastly. When using Distilled or RO water you MUST use a Ca/Mg. If in Coco, you MUST use a Ca/Mg!

I suspect the suppression of your bio's and minor overfeeding to be the root cause here....
N value in Ca/Mg is really not the issue and I would rather have it then not. But do buy the lowest N value that you can find.
Bottled Ca/Mg with a bit of Ir (iron) is a good thing!

I always liked GH CALi MAGic...

For you, don't pH the in going solution down before use - just use it! That could have made all the difference here...The Distilled has no buffer untill you add the Ca/Mg and it still isn't "stable".

Doc

ShLUbY · Aug 17, 2015

Dr. Who said:
New additional edit: After reading the whole thread.....You overfeed them and they burned, Lockout was caused and that was pH related! The way to have fixed that better would be to water with plain Ca/Mged water for 7-10 days and begin feeding AND reduce feeding by 50%. If you feed every watering - STOP - alternate feed and plain water!

Hmmmm,,,Lets cover a few things here ok?

First off...shLUby is correct on the Ca/Mg issue. He is also correct on the High N. I see both of those here too. BUT, do not lower your N to be lower then P or K as that will cause bigger troubles down the road! NPK ratio for Canna is good at a 3-1-2 ratio...3 parts N to 1 part P to 2 parts K.....There is leeway here, but don't get the N lower then P or K....BTW,,,,Canna can use more N in bloom then many synthetic companies put in their products! Don't and I mean do not switch to "bloom" foods till week 3 AFTER the flip to 11/13 (I never run 12/12 - 11/13 is better - try it)

Now then. He does do correcting that will help and in the long term too. BUT, I would approach this problem a little differently.

Lets start with the FF soil.....They work and work well. I would still, if using them, add about a good handful (1/2C) of OYSTER shell and maybe a little Dolomite....When I use Dolomite I don't get the prilled, I use a powdered AG Dolomite too (I farm). You see Dolomite contains a lot of Mg....You could over do it and get Mg tox......Buy the bag of FF and add the OYSTER shell and the bit of Dolo and go from there....You CAN manage Ca/Mg problems with a liquid bottle supplement if you want to......THAT has to do with the folllowing!

Now then, lets talk about pH in soil a bit. When you pH the run off. All you get is the pH of the run off! That can be effected by all sorts of things in the soil going on, or that you put in it. Now this is very important to remember....Properly cared for soil will self pH!!! What happens in nature is that when you water. The pH of the soil swings one way and it swings more then most think. As the plant sits and dries out again. That pH swings back the other way. That is natures way of being sure that nutrient compounds IN the soil are up taken at their best available levels......

Self pHing in soil depends heavily upon the living things IN the soil - The microbes! Using synthetic nutrition does not completely kill off the bio's. It sure does put a hard spank on them! When transplanting at any stage - add some! Powdered or liquid, I don't care but USE them! Periodic reintroduction works wonders too, even with synthetic nutrition. In fact, in testing I've done in my own grow. I find that when using synthetics, keeping the bio heard viable and working helps across the board....

You can make simple bio teas for cheap and use say, every other week or buy (expensive) bio's and supplement with that....
To make a simple bio tea for small scale home use......Try this.

For 3 gallons of Bio tea

5 gallon bucket
Unsulfured Molasses or Blackstrap
Earthworm Castings
2.5 gallons of water (NO -RO, distilled or city/tap) Believe it or not but, river, creak, stream or even puddle water is GREAT!
Alfalfa meal *optional*
Air pump (two outlet minimum)
air stones and lines ...(It would be best to get a flexible air stone and bend it into a circle)

Now set the air stones connected to the air pump in the bottom of the bucket on either side.....
Add the water
1/3 cup of EWC
1 1/2 - 2 Tbl of Molasses
1 1/2 Tbl of alfalfa meal

I don't "bag" my ingr. You don't have too and I don't mind pouring them into my soil.....Some folks put them into their worm bins. I feed my worms enough, so the plants get it...

Bubble this for 36 hrs and use! Be sure to clean the bucket and air equipment after every use.

Store bought bottled bios work too. Use as directed!

Back to soil pH
If you meter soil at anytime other them EXACTLY the same time after watering.....Your going to get different readings! Remember how the soil acts to watering.....the moisture content of the soil will be a factor in just what the pH is.....This begins to make pHing soil an interesting proposal.....Not to mention that "home style/priced" pH "pens" are not as accurate or dependable as lab grade soil equipment...By thousands of dollars!

I would ask this @PlantsAreNeat.

How much and how often do you feed?
Every watering? = Not good! Feed every other!

Net pots = I don't like them, never have.....You get a root mass in the middle of the pot and water simply runs around it and out the side too.....This is called an "umbrella" effect......You have to water to too much run off or let the pots sit in the run off.....I don't like either of those things - at all.....If you have to employ run off - you feed too much! If the maker says to use run off - their padding their wallet from you buying more nutrients then you should really be using!

OK, We have amended the soil before we planted in it. Now we have been controlling the bio heard.
SO - we can simply forget about pHing the soil! It's taking care of it's self as we take care if it.....

Lastly. When using Distilled or RO water you MUST use a Ca/Mg. If in Coco, you MUST use a Ca/Mg!

I suspect the suppression of your bio's and minor overfeeding to be the root cause here....
N value in Ca/Mg is really not the issue and I would rather have it then not. But do buy the lowest N value that you can find.
Bottled Ca/Mg with a bit of Ir (iron) is a good thing!

I always liked GH CALi MAGic...

For you, don't pH the in going solution down before use - just use it! That could have made all the difference here...The Distilled has no buffer untill you add the Ca/Mg and it still isn't "stable".

Doc

thanks Doc. Always love learning new stuff. I looked back on my post and even in my short time of spending a lot of time on here i've already noticed that i'd be changing the advice that i'm giving. I'm reading the ROLS thread every day and learning more and more and that's where i'd like to be in the near future.

Dr. Who · Aug 17, 2015

ShLUbY said:
thanks Doc. Always love learning new stuff. I looked back on my post and even in my short time of spending a lot of time on here i've already noticed that i'd be changing the advice that i'm giving. I'm reading the ROLS thread every day and learning more and more and that's where i'd like to be in the near future.

Good for you! That is the point - to learn eh?

Doc :peace:

Dr. Who · Aug 17, 2015

I got to thinking about how many times I speak about soil pH.....

Blue Lab makes an "affordable" (lol) pH soil meter at around 250 bucks.....The REAL point here, is all the information they give on soil pH and how it's effected and how THAT relates to actually doing a pH check of the soil with their meter (or any pH testing) ...

This is GOOD info you all should know about how to meter accurately and just what all can effect/throw off the accuracy of the reading!

Here is a link to Blue Labs soil pH testers manual = pdf ...... Read pgs 3-8!

Bluelab Soil pH Meter Manual

Now you "see" why simply caring for the soil and forgetting about the pH is far easier!

Doc

workinit · Aug 17, 2015

PlantsAreNeat said:
OK everyone here are some pics from this afternoon. I hope they show a little better the size of the plant and what is going on with some of the leaves. I went ahead and measured the PH and PPM of the water both before and runoff.

I will separate the three plants into three posts so it will be easier to comment on the state of each of them. If that even makes sense...baaaked. lulz

Blueberry OG: View attachment 3467628 View attachment 3467629 View attachment 3467630 View attachment 3467632 View attachment 3467633

Water before: 289 PPM & 6.6 PH
Runoff After: 240 PPM & 4.8 PH.

So yes, it looks like the PH is dropping by a considerable amount on the runoff.

Get some calm at or cal magic. That is a calcium def guaranteed. It will still progress for a couple weeks even after you give them calcium.

PlantsAreNeat · Aug 17, 2015

Doc, Shluby, everyone who has chimed in I greatly appreciate it. Learning a lot myself everyday!

I appreciate the link to that nice PH meter, however at that price, I will side with Doc and just care for my soil better and not try to monitor PH as much, as I think the drastic swings either way have only helped to increase the Cal/Mag problem. Definitely could have burnt them with nutes as well.

My question now is should I leave those badly torched leaves on the plant being so close to harvest or just let them ride? And is it OK to harvest some of the buds that look more ready before the main cola? Or wait?

Again everyone, thanks for the help.

PlantsAreNeat · Aug 18, 2015

Here are a few pictures of the Blueberry to try and show what I mean. I have a USB microscope for the PC, but I swear I am an idiot and cannot tell if the trichs are clear or milky yet lol.

The top cola has a lot of white pistils left, yet some of the buds that are just a little lower and around the edge seem ready to the look. Any thoughts?

Main cola flash off then flash on:

Here is one of the other slightly lower buds flash off then flash on:

Just don't want to let them go too long, although I don't believe I should be worried about that yet. Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

Dr. Who · Aug 18, 2015

Leave the leaves on till they turn ALL(the effected leaves) brown/yellow and will fall away at a brush of the hand..

Might as well let the plant eat whats left in them.

Doc

Dark brown/orange spots

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