Defoliation Test

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HeartlandHank

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
There are many ways to skin this cat. You are obviously doing well. I am stepping out of this argument by saying this...
I can get the same yields that you do with those genetics, have more consistent flowers and save myself a ton of time in the process. (Labor and Veg/mutilation time/$)
I can achieve what you are going for "high yields" without mutilating the plant... while you are finding a path to your destination (yield) you're taking a long messy way to get there and I would assume arriving to a lesser destination (yield).

Good luck. I'll have more to chime in after I do some defol work on these two Green Crack plants. If I see something to gain with this I will eat my words. I am ALWAYS looking to bump up my yields. Spacing and genetics have been successful and low fuss here. It's been fun chatting. It's nice that we can debate without getting huffy. I respect your opinions on this.. I can see that clearly you can grow some nice crops.

Don't let go of that plant. :weed:
 
silusbotwin

silusbotwin

Well-Known Member
HeartlandHank said:
So then is this area an area that you did not defol enough? If defol was the answer to this problem then why is it on your defol'd plant?

this is pretty common when you alter your plant to the point of having an unnatural number of bud sites..
This I can speak on with much confidence... I am a genetic nerd and know what each of my plants produce... I've said this 20 times, but it so true...
You can get 4 10 gram buds 8 5 gram buds 16 2.5 gram buds or 32 .75 gram buds... the plant just does what it does.
You can reach a point where you have so many sites that your plant won't even produce on all of them... Like most things with these plants (from what I see) the lower growth sacrifices first.

I've done much looking into this area.... fueled by hours spent at a trim table asking myself "how do I get the same amount of weight without all of this bullshit fluffy stuff to trim?"
The answer was less bud sites. I get the same weight every time. This is assuming my canopy is full. Not full with many many small buds, but full with many large buds. (Less budsites) I get the same weight with the larger but spend many less hours at the table.

I'm not saying you are absolutely wrong.... but... HAVE you tried these genetics without a defol? Or with less budsites?
Perhaps there is an element to my gardening style that is making this happen, but the more smaller buds/less larger buds/same weight thing has been showing itself to be true time and time again.

The factor that really increases yield ime is the proper spacing under the light which is dictated by how the plant likes to grow/branch. The more altering you do to the plant, the more bud sites.. That I will agree with you on... I just don't find it to be a good thing. If I was growing just a couple plants and yield was increased say 20%, then I might go for it. The thing is that I'm not seeing any increase at all as I am already filling my canopy up well with fewer bud sites that are developing larger flowers.
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I've noticed a similar effect in regards to resin production. I've noticed I can take 2 cuts from a mother and veg one for 2 months on to some serious mass, and the other go straight to flower. It seems the one that is vegged for 2 months has a significantly smaller amount of resin than the zero day vegged plant. It almost seems a plant has a genetically preset limit to the amount of resin it will produce, and it the buds get weaker in potency the larger the plant gets. Maybe I'm just baked all the time and wrong tho :P
 
E

elkukupanda

Active Member
Ninjabowler said:
If this is true then cover a side bud and see the results compared to other side buds.
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I'm try to elaborate on this... By covering the bud completely, you will also be covering leaves within that bud. When this happens, phytochrome B will switch that part of the plant from photosynthesis to respiration. Buds do benefit from respiration since it's the inverse of photosynthesis and all stuff collected/manufactured during the day is used during the night. Keep in mind for a good night to happen you need good day as well. I think it would be counter productive to cover one bud because your blocking its leaves as well. Even if you think that lower buds are not getting too much light, they still get something and that keeps the plant going at an optimal growth rate.
 
Bud Brewer

Bud Brewer

Well-Known Member
I'll try and get you all in one post I have very little bud inside these big plant think of a hedge a few inches in there is no leaves at all even if it is 6 feet high 4 wide a fence the inside will be empty.

I have said it before if I would have made this area 3 feet longer and a foot or two wider I could have dropped the light in between and had better use of the light and developed the whole bottom middle plus the tops of the four feet walls of bud it would all be heavy like the tops I have now.

I now have huge tops with plants 6 inches apart the top mass is 2.5 feet by 3 feet each all heavy primo bud the top third with good bud. All the way around the outside I have decent smaller bud all the way down to the lowest branch that will still give me couple of grams of frosty bud four feet below the bottom of the bulb but it made it's way to get direct light stuff a few inches back is just a cluster of hair.

This is all good because if you can see from the pics I have posted I will have large plants left after this harvest It should be about three feet high by two around with leaves, and two week old looking tops that should just explode when I chop and up the light by 2.5 hours to 14 where I started.

They were budding fine at 3 weeks with 13 hour light so it will give flowering a restart with no veg time so any extra veg I gave them is going to come back big time with big plants to start flowering with.

I will turn them around so the taller stuff is at the back and I will be able to drop the bulb down between them so they should stretch to a similar height but I will keep space between, tying branches earlier now that I have the racks in place.

This will be all In my other thread as will be the harvest, reflower, mixes

This is as thread about a side by side defoliated vs natural not theory you will see what it does.

If you want to talk theory the Light blocker thread is great for that maybe you will be the one lucky post to go over 200 pages of drivel.
 
Bud Brewer

Bud Brewer

Well-Known Member
No don't lurk contribute I want to see what you have going and how you got it going, but theory can go to other threads.
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
Bud Brewer said:
This is as thread about a side by side defoliated vs natural not theory you will see what it does.

If you want to talk theory the Light blocker thread is great for that maybe you will be the one lucky post to go over 200 pages of drivel.
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Seriously. UB needs to keep his troll somewhere else.

I'm looking forward to seeing your results.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Ninjabowler said:
Your right, im a newb, im on my first plants.
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I know. I can spot you guys a mile away by the nature of your posts. One or two gardens and your experts, that's what I find aggravating....gonna re-invent the wheel and do some really kewl experiments. Yah sah!

You do the experiment, it doesn't interest me. I've experimented on cannabis until I'm blue in the face. For starts, compared to other stuff I grow, cannabis culture has become quite mundane.

UB
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
HeartlandHank said:
So then is this area an area that you did not defol enough? If defol was the answer to this problem then why is it on your defol'd plant?

this is pretty common when you alter your plant to the point of having an unnatural number of bud sites..
This I can speak on with much confidence... I am a genetic nerd and know what each of my plants produce... I've said this 20 times, but it so true...
You can get 4 10 gram buds 8 5 gram buds 16 2.5 gram buds or 32 .75 gram buds... the plant just does what it does. Obviously, root mass, container size, air quality, nutes, light levels effect... So say those aspects are met with adequate/consistent conditions... Your plant yields the same..
You can reach a point where you have so many sites that your plant won't even produce on all of them... Like most things with these plants (from what I see) the lower growth sacrifices first.
Click to expand...
Excellent point. There is a saturation point where less is more, whether it's too much light, too much water, too many budsites. The plant will find its own balance. Like you said, the plant is gonna adjust. More sites produce smaller buds/colas. Another example is are when you go to a 4 cola plant by topping, those 4 main colas will be smaller than if you had left it with one main cola. You alluded to the limitations - root mass, container, etc. It's also about hormonal responses. Another example which a seasoned gardener will attest to.....say you have an apple tree....if you drop 60% of the flower set, the pea sized fruit, the remaining apples will be much larger and of better quality regarding sales appeal.


I've done much looking into this area.... fueled by hours spent at a trim table asking myself "how do I get the same amount of weight without all of this bullshit fluffy stuff to trim?"
The answer was less bud sites. I get the same weight every time. This is assuming my canopy is full. Not full with many many small buds, but full with many large buds. (Less budsites) I get the same weight with the larger but spend many less hours at the table.
Click to expand...
Of course.

I'm not saying you are absolutely wrong.... but... HAVE you tried these genetics without a defol? Or with less budsites?
Click to expand...
Blasphemy! Ban him potroast! :)
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
HeartlandHank said:
I can get the same yields that you do with those genetics, have more consistent flowers and save myself a ton of time in the process. (Labor and Veg/mutilation time/$)

I can achieve what you are going for "high yields" without mutilating the plant... while you are finding a path to your destination (yield) you're taking a long messy way to get there and I would assume arriving to a lesser destination (yield).
Click to expand...
Bingo, give this man a prize!

I learned a long time ago that I was not going to be a slave to my plants (well....not too much LOL). Still am to a degree, but not what some of these people do with methods I find ridiculous - SCROG, LST, "super cropping"....the last 2 being bullshit terms, much less the hassle of going thru all that crap. In seconds, I can top 12 plants to 4 main colas, grow my SOB plan, and be done with it. Outdoors is even easier - take a plant in a 5 gal. container, drop it into a 3" deep hole, kick dirt up against the pot, slip a 1/2 gph emitter into the pot and basically be done with until harvest with very little inputs. Don't even bother with fertilizing as I mix in a 10-12 mo. slow release encapsulated food made by Polyon.....and the horror of it all is it's a 18-4-9, blooms/produces like mad and WITHOUT ANY BLOOM FOOD. Can you believe THAT lol? :)

Here's an example, 4 main colas that are so heavy with bud they are leaning parallel to the ground and yes they are stake and tied with plant tape. That plant is at least 4' across with most colas around 18" in diameter. Shot was taken directly from above.

FullViewAug19send.jpg

Good luck,
UB
 
Bud Brewer

Bud Brewer

Well-Known Member
I got an update most everything is growing fast the two that got topped haven't grown much and have fallen behind the one with the burnt stalk looks bad but has survive a few days so I hope it recovers so I can defoliate one of them for the test.

Ok this was feb 3 just before transplant









This was the 8th





Then on the 11th I had a light fall on two plants



Still alive on the 14th but looks bad but the side braching is keeping up with the other healthy topped plant.

I'm debating to repot these two so I can bury the damaged stalk and hopefully have it take off strong what do you think?















I'll pluck leaves tonight on two the four they are very even I was waiting till they filled in the cup with roots and were growing strong so now they are ready.

I want everybody to share there experience and pictures with this method ask all the questions you like This is a learning thread.

I have done the theory debate on this site and another it never ends and it's always the same one side that has never done it debates the plant needs every leaf while those of us that have done it know you pull a leaf it gets replaced fast from new shoots making more branches and leaves than normal.
 
Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
I know. I can spot you guys a mile away by the nature of your posts. You do the experiment, it doesn't interest me. I've experimented on cannabis until I'm blue in the face. For starts, compared to other stuff I grow, cannabis culture has become quite mundane.

UB
Click to expand...
iv seen how you debate and i had a good feeling that you would pull that quote out of my post. I checked my own defoliation experiment last night and the vegging defol plants are the biggest still. Buddys freakin out about how big theyre getting. Since youve done this expirement obviously (blue in the face n all), what was the outcome when you did it? Id love to hear about the results that you got. Sorry if the monotany of explaining to newbs why plants that become the largest in the pack are the worst ones bores you these days, but i can assure you that there will always be people that dont just take your word for things without posted proof. You wanna change someones mind you have to show proof of why their theory is wrong, you cant just toss in a couple of plant facts and say theyre noobs. Im scared to ask but how do you feel about the mainlining thread?
 
Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
Bud Brewer said:
Post up some pics lets see those fine ladies
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I didnt get pics cause she wasnt mine so shes hanging already. I will get pics of the defol plants in DWC and post them. I think i have a before pic, lemmie check....K so its the one in the front. She was mite eaten and i tore her to shreds, now she is huge! There is a bigger one than her but that one was also defoliated. The clear loosers of the race are the two that has been left alone. Ill grab some shots of her now in a couple days and repost both together so you can see a before and after. Smiles will follow :):):) *edit* sorry the pics upside down IDK oh and the one thats bigger has been defoliated several times, not just once, could be why shes the biggest lol
 

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Bud Brewer

Bud Brewer

Well-Known Member
Mainlining is just combining topping and listing that he hates as with everything else that doesn't just have four tops and as you can see the topped plants are far slower and will take at least a week to start growing fast again I don't think they will ever catch up.
 
Bud Brewer

Bud Brewer

Well-Known Member
HeartlandHank said:
There are many ways to skin this cat. You are obviously doing well. I am stepping out of this argument by saying this...
I can get the same yields that you do with those genetics, have more consistent flowers and save myself a ton of time in the process. (Labor and Veg/mutilation time/$)
I can achieve what you are going for "high yields" without mutilating the plant... while you are finding a path to your destination (yield) you're taking a long messy way to get there and I would assume arriving to a lesser destination (yield).

Good luck. I'll have more to chime in after I do some defol work on these two Green Crack plants. If I see something to gain with this I will eat my words. I am ALWAYS looking to bump up my yields. Spacing and genetics have been successful and low fuss here. It's been fun chatting. It's nice that we can debate without getting huffy. I respect your opinions on this.. I can see that clearly you can grow some nice crops.

Don't let go of that plant. :weed:
Click to expand...
I don't think veg time is extended much if any doing defoliation but plant mass is much larger.

I believe in veg time if you have the space because you can veg for a week and get two oz veg for 3 and you get 4oz veg for 6 weeks get 8-12 oz with two months dedicated to flowering wouldn't you want the most out of the flowering time by giving them veg time under weaker lights.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Ninjabowler said:
Since youve done this expirement obviously (blue in the face n all), what was the outcome when you did it?
Click to expand...
I stripped most of the foliage on one side of the plants and left the other side alone. Stripped side grew back, bud production was the same on both sides.

UB
 
Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
I stripped most of the foliage on one side of the plants and left the other side alone. Stripped side grew back, bud production was the same on both sides.

UB
Click to expand...
but its the same plant running on the same circulatory system, lmao, your kidding right?
 
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