Do Your Plants Know the Difference Between Organic and Inorganic Fertilizers?

CrackerJax said:

That is just one species I commented on..... tens of thousands of other birds are dying as well...... everywhere the turbines are built..... death follows.

They are destroying the local aviary populations.

I want you to imagine if Exxon killed 80 eagles last year.... what would be the "green" reaction? If turbines do it.... the greens just shrug.

Hypocrisy comes in many forms. Not just corporate.

Wind turbines are a TERRIBLE idea. It's not a passive energy source like solar.

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CrackerJax said:

That is just one species I commented on..... tens of thousands of other birds are dying as well...... everywhere the turbines are built..... death follows.

They are destroying the local aviary populations.

I want you to imagine if Exxon killed 80 eagles last year.... what would be the "green" reaction? If turbines do it.... the greens just shrug.

Hypocrisy comes in many forms. Not just corporate.

Wind turbines are a TERRIBLE idea. It's not a passive energy source like solar.

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mariapastor said:

i beg the differ this way of like is unsustainable theres way to much people we ALL need to off grid and plant our own food and produce our own methane gass... lets go off grid people 2012 is coming

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CrackerJax said:

Oh, it's kept well track of.... big oil kills that is..


I guess you don't see the hypocrisy....

Wind KILLS..... U'll notice that 10000 (TEN THOUSAND!!) birds were killed at a SINGLE location EACH YEAR...


Wanna keep defending WIND????? Think it through.

I have an open mind.... how bout you?

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CrackerJax said:

That is NOT the only study.... that's just one location....

This carnage goes on where ever a turbine is raised.

Where are the millions in fines for that wind farm by the way? Where is the GREEN outrage.

HYPOCRISY my friend..... pure hypocrisy. The Greens are as corrupt as EXXON..... make no mistake.

P.S. the window analogy is ridiculous and you know it. Wind kills and now that you know it.... where is your conscience??????? where are your morals??? In your pocketbook??? You could work for big oil.

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ginjawarrior said:

lol your the one selling big oil as the future.
the fact of the matter is we can do fuck all with out killing. you build a house you kill how ever much life, you drive down the road killing the whole way you use electricity your killing something. you harvest your crops you kill many live things along the way. nearly every thing we do results in a death of some sort.
now all we can do is try to limit the environmental (mortality cost) and pick which one is ultimately less damaging and considering all the damage that gets done by petro chemicals then i really dont think that wind causes more damage to the enviroment then them do you?

i didnt post on here because i am a champion of wind i just found it laughable you were comparing wind farm damage to fossil fuel damage.

on a side note you seen these i think they're pretty cool might be a good solution untill we have work fission plants anyway

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CrackerJax said:

Again... the hypocrisy is palpable. Killing migratory PROTECTED birds with a whole new system will be tolerated.... for political gain.

Turbines aren't even efficient. So why the hypocrisy? Politics... that's great science!!

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ginjawarrior said:

well the thing about migratory birds is that they follow the same route each year = easy to not put new turbines in their path.
new turbines are more efficient than before and safer to the bird population

i have looked online for these killing fields of birds yet can only find the cali site you showed. please show me more so that i can see what your talking about.

bird protection agencies across america are seeing that wind turbines are NOT the horrible killer that you make them out to be.

EVERYONE with even a modicum of sense know that fossil fuels and petrol chemicals ARE horrilbe killers

fossil fuels = burning to create energy isnt it time to step away from caveman technologies and actualy start using the nigh on limitless renewable power that is around us every where on this tiny little rock?

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CrackerJax said:

So they are just deadly in that one spot? Birds are stupid in cali? think about it.

Move the turbines? Think about that too.


Why do the migratory birds fly through that way.... because of the steady WINDS.

Why are the turbines there? Because of the steady WINDS.

The turbines are going to be placed along migratory paths, because they both want the WIND.

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• helping to generate research funds to develop maps of important bird areas and migration bottlenecks and place these off limits to wind development
• furthering scientific knowledge that will help minimize and mitigate the collision and habitat impacts of wind turbines on birds and other wildlife
• evaluating prospective wind project sites, and insure development that protects migratory birds and birds of conservation concern from site-specific hazards and habitat loss at important U.S. and international sites (CA, TX, VA, MA, Mexico, Puerto Rico)
• assisting with the development of offshore guidelines and assessments for wind energy projects as well as mitigation plans
• representing birds and wildlife interests as a stakeholder on various government wind energy committees.

ginjawarrior said:

people have already explained in this thread that the site at cali used very old obsolete style of turbine that rotates at a much higher speed than modern turbines
not only that but they didnt look into bird migration.

that is no longer the case there are plenty of windy places on the earth that dont have migrating birds on them.
as i said bird protection agencies across america are siding with wind farms. now your telling me they dont actually give a fuck about birds?

this is from the american bird conservancy


ABC's Wind Program

ABC believes that wind energy is a valuable, non-polluting, renewable power source, capable of reducing our reliance on fossil-fuel burning power-plants that damage the environment through greenhouse gas emissions, pollution, and other environmental hazards. Wind farms, however, kill birds and bats, thereby raising concerns of a different kind. We all want clean, renewable energy, but we cannot sacrifice large numbers of birds and still consider wind power "green."
Despite the fast pace of development of wind power and its great potential to provide green energy, we must not be in a hurry to get it wrong. Continued close collaboration with industry and strong federal regulation that uses tax breaks for doing the right thing and meaningful fines for doing the wrong thing will be the carrot and stick approach that will ensure the next fifty years are positive for birds at wind farms.
To that extent, ABC is working to make wind energy nationally regulated, either through federal legislation that requires the adoption of the Best Management Practices, or by working with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to finalize siting, mitigation, and enforcement guidelines.
ABC is also working in the following ways to ensure safer production of wind-generated electricity:

• helping to generate research funds to develop maps of important bird areas and migration bottlenecks and place these off limits to wind development
• furthering scientific knowledge that will help minimize and mitigate the collision and habitat impacts of wind turbines on birds and other wildlife
• evaluating prospective wind project sites, and insure development that protects migratory birds and birds of conservation concern from site-specific hazards and habitat loss at important U.S. and international sites (CA, TX, VA, MA, Mexico, Puerto Rico)
• assisting with the development of offshore guidelines and assessments for wind energy projects as well as mitigation plans
• representing birds and wildlife interests as a stakeholder on various government wind energy committees.

this is what they say about bird mortality

B. BIRD MORTALITY


ABC’s mission is to conserve wild birds and their habitats in the Americas and our policies, including on wind energy, strive to achieve that mission. As a national leader in science-based, bird conservation policies, ABC is increasingly called upon for information on avian impacts from wind turbines. ABC has spearheaded national efforts to protect birds from mortality at communication towers, on longline fishing hooks, from pesticides, and from cats. ABC has been a leader in estimating the potential impacts of global warming, largely caused by fossil fuel emissions, on birds . ABC also has been a leader in efforts to assemble and evaluate the best data and solutions to avian mortality at wind turbines. ABC helped form a Wind Energy and Birds Steering Committee of scientists, conservationists, and wind energy officials to conduct a rigorous two-day workshop on wind energy and bird and bat impacts and solutions. The workshop, conducted in May 2004, analyzed the best available data on avian mortality and disturbance at wind turbines and discussed the best data on locating, constructing, and operating wind turbines to prevent/minimize mortality and disturbance to birds and bats . Proceedings will be published and posted at this web site. Any structure erected, including our homes, may lead to avian mortality. Communication towers kill up to 50 million birds a year; over 90% of the fatalities are neotropical migratory birds . To learn more about bird mortality at communication towers and to view our Tower Kill Report. Collisions with building glass also kill millions of birds each year.
Wind energy production may affect birds through:
1) Mortality from collisions with the turbine blades, towers, power lines, or with other related structures, and electrocution on power lines;
2) Avoidance of the wind turbines and habitat surrounding them; and
3) Direct habitat impacts from the turbines’ footprint, roads, power lines, and auxiliary buildings.
Recent U.S. studies indicate that bird mortality at wind turbine projects varies from less than one bird/turbine/year to as high as 7.5 birds/per turbine/year . The latter fatality rate was at Buffalo Mountain, TN, where three wind turbines are in use, each with a 154' diameter, 3-blade rotor mounted on a 213' tall tubular steel tower. A meteorological (met) tower constructed for the Buffalo Mountain wind plant had a mortality rate of 8.1 birds/year.
At the Foote Creek Rim (Wyoming) wind energy facility, average per guyed meteorological tower mortality was approximately 3 times higher than per turbine mortality . Met and communication towers at turbine sites appear to have more fatalities per tower than fatalities per turbine , hence the necessity for keeping these permanent met and communication towers unguyed and unlit.
At the Mountaineer Wind Energy Project in West Virginia, another Appalachian ridgeline wind facility, 44 tall turbines (345') and related structures caused an estimated mortality of 4.80 birds per turbine in 2003. Approximately 211 birds of 24 species were killed at this West Virginia facility. The data from operating wind projects in the East indicate that 80% of avian fatalities are neotropical migratory birds. At the Mountaineer plant, the largest east of the Mississippi, the most common species found was Red-eyed Vireo (63 birds, 30% of all mortalities). The Red-eyed Vireo is also one of the most frequently killed species at communication towers. Over 90% of species found at communication towers are neotropical migratory birds.
The results of a number of recent studies can be accessed at: http://www.west-inc.com/wind_reports.php. These studies document bird mortality per turbine per year and species composition. For example, the Stateline Wind project on the Oregon/Washington border is one of the world’s largest at 300 Megawatts. The first phase of 399 large operating turbines was assessed at 1.70 bird fatalities/turbine/year, 43% of them Horned Larks, a common year-long resident grassland songbird. Fatality rates at the Foote Creek Rim Wind Project in Wyoming, with 105 large turbines built at 7,600' to 8,000' elevation, was estimated to be 1.75 bird fatalities/turbine/year.
A report for the National Wind Coordinating Committee completed in 2001 examined avian mortality studies at wind turbines (nearly all west of the Mississippi) and found that the annual estimate of all avian mortality from the 15,000 operational wind turbines in the U.S. was 10,000 to 40,000 birds , about 80% passerines. About 14% of the mortality was House Sparrows, European Starlings, and Rock Pigeons. A more recent publication estimated 20,000 bird fatalities based on the 6,400 MW of capacity generation installed at the end of 2003, with approximately 9,000 birds killed at the ~4,000 turbines outside of California . The average number of bird kills per turbine was estimated at 2.1 birds per turbine per year . This equates to 3 birds killed per turbine, per MW per year. Approximately 200 raptor fatalities were estimated nationwide, outside of California. Approximately 700 raptor fatalities occurred in California, many at the Altamont Pass site. Go to: Avian Collisions with Wind Turbines: A Summary of Existing Studies, W. P. Erickson et al, West, Inc., NWCC, (August 2001).
With more and larger turbines operating, new data suggests that the total number of raptor fatalities has risen, but raptor mortality per turbine at new wind projects is very low. At Altamont Pass, the number of Golden Eagles and other raptors killed continues to be a concern. The location of over 5,400 wind turbines with an abundance of raptors and ground squirrels and other prey has led to the raptor mortality concerns, even though the mean for raptor kills over the years has been estimated between 0.048 and 0.10 per turbine per year. Nearly all of the turbines are small, older generation turbines.
See data published on avian mortality and habitat issues on the National Wind Coordinating Council’s web site and visit the Wildlife Working Group section.
Even though local or regional avian population impacts have not been documented and mortality or habitat disturbance may not directly affect the overall population of an avian species, ABC notes these specific concerns:
1) Mortality or other effects on Endangered Species Act listed species or birds of conservation concern. At least 21 species on the U.S. FWS list of Birds of Conservation Concern have been killed at wind turbines, although only a few mortalities of some of these species have been found at individual wind energy facilities.
2) Local or regional population impacts are of concern. e.g. Golden Eagles, other raptors, prairie grouse, and other grassland breeders.
3) Cumulative impacts on species are of concern, nationally, regionally, and with individual projects, especially large ones.
4) While many wind turbine projects have been rigorously monitored for avian impacts, many have not. Data from the newer wind plants in the East is just starting to be published.
5) Location of wind turbines along ridge tops in the East and offshore may present greater potential threats to birds than some wind projects in other parts of the country; and
6) Rapid growth in wind turbine size (rotor-swept area and height) and an increase in the numbers of turbines may cause increased avian impacts.
Bird and bat mortality is expressed throughout this policy statement as birds or bats/per turbine/per year. As wind energy turbines have become larger and able to produce much greater amounts of electricity per turbine, researchers have begun to express mortality in terms of birds or bats per MW generated per year. Unlike estimates for communication towers, mortality estimates for wind turbines have been adjusted upward from the whole carcasses and carcass parts (e.g., feather spots) that are found. This adjustment is made to account for incomplete searcher efficiency and scavenger/predator carcass removal.



right so wheres your evidence of the "killing fields"?

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CrackerJax said:

On Aug. 13, ExxonMobil pleaded guilty in federal court to killing 85 birds that had come into contact with crude oil or other pollutants in uncovered tanks or waste-water facilities on its properties. The birds were protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, which dates back to 1918. The company agreed to pay $600,000 in fines and fees.
ExxonMobil is hardly alone in running afoul of this law. Over the past two decades, federal officials have brought hundreds of similar cases against energy companies. In July, for example, the Oregon-based electric utility PacifiCorp paid $1.4 million in fines and restitution for killing 232 eagles in Wyoming over the past two years. The birds were electrocuted by poorly-designed power lines.
Yet there is one group of energy producers that are not being prosecuted for killing birds: wind-power companies. And wind-powered turbines are killing a vast number of birds every year.
A July 2008 study of the wind farm at Altamont Pass, Calif., estimated that its turbines kill an average of 80 golden eagles per year. The study, funded by the Alameda County Community Development Agency, also estimated that about 10,000 birds—nearly all protected by the migratory bird act—are being whacked every year at Altamont.
Altamont's turbines, located about 30 miles east of Oakland, Calif., kill more than 100 times as many birds as Exxon's tanks, and they do so every year. But the Altamont Pass wind farm does not face the same threat of prosecution, even though the bird kills at Altamont have been repeatedly documented by biologists since the mid-1990s.

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The number of birds killed by wind turbines is highly variable. And biologists believe Altamont, which uses older turbine technology, may be the worst example. But that said, the carnage there likely represents only a fraction of the number of birds killed by windmills. Michael Fry of the American Bird Conservancy estimates that U.S. wind turbines kill between 75,000 and 275,000 birds per year. Yet the Justice Department is not bringing cases against wind companies.
"Somebody has given the wind industry a get-out-of-jail-free card," Mr. Fry told me. "If there were even one prosecution," he added, the wind industry would be forced to take the issue seriously.
According to the American Wind Energy Association, the industry's trade association, each megawatt of installed wind-power results in the killing of between one and six birds per year. At the end of 2008, the U.S. had about 25,000 megawatts of wind turbines.
By 2030, environmental and lobby groups are pushing for the U.S. to be producing 20% of its electricity from wind. Meeting that goal, according to the Department of Energy, will require the U.S. to have about 300,000 megawatts of wind capacity, a 12-fold increase over 2008 levels. If that target is achieved, we can expect some 300,000 birds, at the least, to be killed by wind turbines each year.
On its Web site, the Wind Energy Association says that bird kills by wind turbines are a "very small fraction of those caused by other commonly accepted human activities and structures—house cats kill an estimated one billion birds annually." That may be true, but it is not much of a defense. When cats kill birds, federal law doesn't require marching them to our courthouses to hold them responsible.
During the late 1980s and early '90s, Rob Lee was one of the Fish and Wildlife Service's lead law-enforcement investigators on the problem of bird kills in Western oil fields. Now retired and living in Lubbock, Texas, Mr. Lee tells me that solving the problem in the oil fields "was easy and cheap." The oil companies only had to put netting over their tanks and waste facilities.
Why aren't wind companies prosecuted for killing eagles and other birds? "The fix here is not easy or cheap," Mr. Lee told me. He added that he doesn't expect to see any prosecutions of the politically correct wind industry.
This is a double standard that more people—and not just bird lovers—should be paying attention to. In protecting America's wildlife, federal law-enforcement officials are turning a blind eye to the harm done by "green" energy.

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ginjawarrior said:

this would be the old obsolete wind farm that uses old style turbines and was very poorly placed?



you seem torn between the arguement of wind turbines being a horrific killer of birds. and the argument that your pissed becuase the oil companies seem to be getting the raw deal...

Again anything that we do is gonna cause harm. theres turbines out there running right now that can provide power for 500 homes yet only kill 1 bird per turbine per year. more bird will be killed hitting the frigging houses that are being powered.

wind turbines are safer than the communications towers that they sit next to. i dont see you ragging on them.

as the older turbines are phased out then the newer (safer) ones will be put into areas that are significantly less risk than before.

they recon 1 billion birds die in america every year due to flying into windows how many people have been fined for that?

no matter how you look at it wind technology is much much safer than petrol chemicals...

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ginjawarrior said:

lol was just reading what John Flicker, National Audubon Society, president. was sayin about wind farms, he agrees with them by the way but he says it better than i could

Flicker summed up the Audubon perspective with stark directness. "When you look at a wind turbine, you can find the bird carcasses and count them," he said. "With a coal-fired power plant, you can't count the carcasses, but it's going to kill a lot more birds."

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