Does government have the "authority" to force mandatory vaccinations on unwilling individuals ? Where does that authority come from ?

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PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
I don't mind if people harm themselves over what I think is a stupid belief and cases where children are neglected due to religion are often getting picked up by state child neglect/abuse laws. I just don't like the idea of a hierarchy in the value of one's beliefs, especially when it comes to rights.
That's exactly the same thing that people who want their own freedom to choose what sort of medical interventions are imposed upon them believe. The idea that mandated vaccines are going to somehow prevent the spread of covid has proven itself to be flawed logic months ago. It seems that most of the people I know who are getting covid lately are double-jabbed and boosted, which will get them into a concert even if they are covid-positive. Brilliant.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I don't mind if people harm themselves over what I think is a stupid belief and cases where children are neglected due to religion are often getting picked up by state child neglect/abuse laws. I just don't like the idea of a hierarchy in the value of one's beliefs, especially when it comes to rights.
But the hierarchy is a structural feature. “Mine are better than the others’.” Universal.
 

mooray

Well-Known Member
That's exactly the same thing that people who want their own freedom to choose what sort of medical interventions are imposed upon them believe. The idea that mandated vaccines are going to somehow prevent the spread of covid has proven itself to be flawed logic months ago. It seems that most of the people I know who are getting covid lately are double-jabbed and boosted, which will get them into a concert even if they are covid-positive. Brilliant.
I think the asterisk here is that life has been too good for too long, which has fueled a high level of narcissism. What the public generally thinks they have a right to, isn't actually what they have a right to.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
That's exactly the same thing that people who want their own freedom to choose what sort of medical interventions are imposed upon them believe. The idea that mandated vaccines are going to somehow prevent the spread of covid has proven itself to be flawed logic months ago. It seems that most of the people I know who are getting covid lately are double-jabbed and boosted, which will get them into a concert even if they are covid-positive. Brilliant.
No.
Bad analogy.
Religions are vaporware and vaccines are not.
As for your anecdote, shrug.
 

mooray

Well-Known Member
Narcissism like negging vax.
Right leaning people are a little strange in how they allow other things, which are essentially nothing, to be so imposing on their lives. If someone yells "YOU MUST TAKE THE VAX AND VOTE DEM!!!", they feel very imposed upon by that. Normally, when some stranger says something you think is dumb, or untrue, you just shrug and go on your way. But righties, they allow someone else's words to carry lots of "power". It's strange. They understand the concept just fine when it comes to the n-word, they say, "ignore it, don't give them that power over you", but for some reason they can't take their own advice when language they dislike is thrown at them.
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
I think the asterisk here is that life has been too good for too long, which has fueled a high level of narcissism. What the public generally thinks they have a right to, isn't actually what they have a right to.
That axe can easily swing both directions. Don't confuse narcissism with autonomy.
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
Right leaning people are a little strange in how they allow other things, which are essentially nothing, to be so imposing on their lives. If someone yells "YOU MUST TAKE THE VAX AND VOTE DEM!!!", they feel very imposed upon by that. Normally, when some stranger says something you think is dumb, or untrue, you just shrug and go on your way. But righties, they allow someone else's words to carry lots of "power". It's strange. They understand the concept just fine when it comes to the n-word, they say, "ignore it, don't give them that power over you", but for some reason they can't take their own advice when language they dislike is thrown at them.
There are dumb people on both sides.
 

mooray

Well-Known Member
That axe can easily swing both directions. Don't confuse narcissism with autonomy.
Which is fine, you have a right to avoid any medicine you want. However, you don't have a right to work wherever you want, or use anyone's services you want, or even a right to gasoline at a price that makes you happy. Nor can you invoke a belief of god to get a job, or affordable gasoline. Freedom swings both directions too, and people just don't understand that anymore, because it's all about "me".
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Right leaning people are a little strange in how they allow other things, which are essentially nothing, to be so imposing on their lives. If someone yells "YOU MUST TAKE THE VAX AND VOTE DEM!!!", they feel very imposed upon by that. Normally, when some stranger says something you think is dumb, or untrue, you just shrug and go on your way. But righties, they allow someone else's words to carry lots of "power". It's strange. They understand the concept just fine when it comes to the n-word, they say, "ignore it, don't give them that power over you", but for some reason they can't take their own advice when language they dislike is thrown at them.
I’m not talking about right-leaning people. I’m talking about the fascist American hard right to which PJ denies belonging yet slyly posts their propaganda. You can detect a hard rightist by his or her voting record in the last few years.
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
Except that by law they have to offer religious exemptions.
Religious exemption always seems like it would be both a hard case to make/prove and also the easiest, depending on the audience.

I saw a heads vs feds debate 20 years back and the hightimes guy made some stupid argument about weed being the sacrament of the counter culture religion. Just dumb and silly. I can't think of many practical real examples where the claim of exemption had been made and was found to be a legitimate legal loophole for whatever. Native Americans could eat peyote, but I can't think of many others.
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
Which is fine, you have a right to avoid any medicine you want. However, you don't have a right to work wherever you want, or use anyone's services you want, or even a right to gasoline at a price that makes you happy. Nor can you invoke a belief of god to get a job, or affordable gasoline. Freedom swings both directions too, and people just don't understand that anymore, because it's all about "me".
Actually some of those things are rights by law, according to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. The fact that you disagree with it, doesn't invalidate it as a right.
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
I’m not talking about right-leaning people. I’m talking about the fascist American hard right to which PJ denies belonging yet slyly posts their propaganda. You can detect a hard rightist by his or her voting record in the last few years.
I voted for Biden in 2020, Bernie in the primaries. Is that what makes me "hard right" in your eyes? I not registered with any political party affiliation.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
That axe can easily swing both directions. Don't confuse narcissism with autonomy.
Autonomy is a dishonest concept when held up to public health compliance, which is a core civic duty. Positioning it as some sort of infringement makes you sound as lost as our local Spoonerite. Not a good look.
 

mooray

Well-Known Member
I’m not talking about right-leaning people. I’m talking about the fascist American hard right to which PJ denies belonging yet slyly posts their propaganda. You can detect a hard rightist by his or her voting record in the last few years.
He's not hard right overall, imo. Hard righties are in your face with flat earth level of dumb, and they're just as confident as they are loud. I think he's a moderate with a couple of hard right quirks.
 

mooray

Well-Known Member
Actually some of those things are rights by law, according to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. The fact that you disagree with it, doesn't invalidate it as a right.
Come on now, you know there's a massive difference between having a right to work wherever you want, and not being hired as the most qualified individual because you're black/gay/etc. You do not have a right to work wherever you want, simple as that.
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
Religious exemption always seems like it would be both a hard case to make/prove and also the easiest, depending on the audience.

I saw a heads vs feds debate 20 years back and the hightimes guy made some stupid argument about weed being the sacrament of the counter culture religion. Just dumb and silly. I can't think of many practical real examples where the claim of exemption had been made and was found to be a legitimate legal loophole for whatever. Native Americans could eat peyote, but I can't think of many others.
I'll give you an example then, because I've had to sit through mandated trainings on this stuff, and it's really happening in the real world.

There was a group of truck drivers who's employer mandated a "no facial hair" policy for their workers. There was a group of Sikh's who refused and were terminated. They sued their employer, for religious discrimination, as the practice of allowing one's hair to grow naturally out of respect for God is a practice of their religion. They won, the employer lost, had to pay damages, and give them their jobs back. Real world stuff.
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
He's not hard right overall, imo. Hard righties are in your face with flat earth level of dumb, and they're just as confident as they are loud. I think he's a moderate with a couple of hard right quirks.
More than anything I'd call myself anti-establishment. Dems and GOP aren't much different in terms of their honestly, I just happen to agree with Dems more than Republicans.
Come on now, you know there's a massive difference between having a right to work wherever you want, and not being hired as the most qualified individual because you're black/gay/etc. You do not have a right to work wherever you want, simple as that.
You have a right to work wherever you want without consideration to your gender, race, military status, disability status, nationality, sexual orientation, religion, political views, and probably some other things I'm not remembering at the moment.
Why do we have to be one or the other? This is starting to sound too black and white. Like a religion.
Because a lot of groups want you to be "all in" or they consider you "all out". It's a pretty say state of the herd mentality world that we live in these days.
 
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