Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Don't forget the liquid light + saturator spray, definitely worth the money. I also like Snow Storm Ultra for extra resin production.
DWC Root Slime Cure aka How to Breed Beneficial Microbes
- Thread starter Heisenberg
- Start date
rosecitypapa
Active Member
Great article!
So how do we determine what level of DO our current pump and airstone are creating? Say for example, I have a aquarium pump that is good for a 20 gal aquarium, is that creating the 6 ppm recommended?
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
20 gal pump may be enough, it would depend on the amount of tea you are making. The general rule is 1wt per gallon with multiple air stones. To accurately measure the DO you would need an expensive meter, which any good hydro store should carry. DO is effected by a number of things, mainly water temperature, air pressure, and PPM concentration. In general, at 75f the water should be capable of holding about 8ppm DO, and people with DO meters tell us 1wt per gallon is usually enough. Be sure air stones are all the way at the bottom and the cooler the air the better.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
I use it directly in the res at no more than 2ml per gallon, and I foliar spray with it a couple times in the final weeks. I only use it during weeks 4-6 of bud and I have never had it cause any gunk, slime or disease in the res.
smithmds
Active Member
So 10 watts per gallon would maybe be overkill (what I'm running is 200 watt Ecoplus Air 7 in a ~22 gallon res)...don't think that should hurt though, can't really have too much oxygen can ya?
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Well, you can actually have too much oxygen in theory. DO levels of 110% kills marine life. But of course our water in a DWC can't hold that much, so in that context, you can't overdue it. You don't want so much turbulence that the roots are violently being tossed around, and there is always the fact that the more contact the roots are making with air/bubbles the less contact they make with the nutrient solution, but practically speaking, it would be really hard to overdue it.
Something else worth pointing out is that, while temperature may have, in my opinion, a negligible effect on DO levels for our purposes, it has a significant effect on the respiration rate of the roots. The hotter the water the faster the roots will deplete what oxygen is present. So I guess the question is, if at 75f the water holds around 8ppm DO, does the plants respiration reqirments ever exceed the max DO the water can hold? That is beyond me to answer but I think it would take many many plants sharing the same res. Results seem to indicate that is isn't worth considering.
smithmds
Active Member
What if you could chill your water to achieve the DO rate at 9.2 at 65-67F and then let the water warm to 75F before delivering it to your plants so the roots could absorb it better? It may get off of DWC topic but, is it a sound theory?
BloodHoundsRule
Well-Known Member
Heisenberg, I cant say enough about using this tea in my bubble buckets. Its my 2nd week running this and I'm impressed. When I change the buckets now I don't have the slime on the inside of the bucket like I used to. Dump the nutes, rinse it once and run my fingers up the inside and there is nothing on it. The plants are loving the added Benes also. Thank for a great post. I would like to hear the feedback from others that are using it now and get their input on it. Its amazing what 2 handfuls of Ancient Forest,a half scoop of Great White and spoon full of molasses will do in your reservoir. 
usblues420
Member
hey man, so I sterilized my rez with 3% H202 and added your tea after letting it bubble for 24 hours and the brown slime came right back worse than before. What am I doing wrong here? Do I need to get the hydroponic grade Peroxide and sterilize with that. The local hydro store did not carry the ZHO powder or any product with the fungi that you mentioned, so that was left out of the mix. Im just getting kinda discouraged here as I am losing this battle with the brown slime.
rosecitypapa
Active Member
What is in Snow Storm Ultra that provides for extra resin production?
BloodHoundsRule
Well-Known Member
Need to stay as close as you can on the ingredients. First, did you use the Ancient Forest or another EWC product? You need to let the "TEA" brew for no less then 48 hrs after mixing. Your hydro shop didnt carry any Great White or similar product? If they don't you can order the beneficial organisms here. http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/index.html You want the MycoGrow Soluble version of the product. Thats the main ingredient you are missing. That and the brew time. Hope this helps you.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
I think as the water warms up it loses it's ability to hold a higher DO, so chilling it first and then letting it warm would have the same result on DO levels as just using the warmer water to begin with.
The only thing you can do is back up and try again. Like BHR said, follow the recipe and application as close as possible. The trichoderma fungi are a key to fighting slime, so if you have to then order the powder from fungi.com. They have super fast shipping. I have successfully used 3% h2o2 to sterilize in the past; I sprayed it directly onto the roots. You have to make sure to remove any mushy roots and rinse off as much slime as possible. You must also do this just before adding the tea, so brew the tea first. Also be sure to keep any organic material out of the res until the bennies are well established. If you make and apply the tea right and do nothing to kill off the bennies, then there is no reason microbes shouldn't work for you.
I do not know as they keep it a secret. It is sold as a simple PK booster, and it does bulk up the buds slightly, but something in the formula encourages resin production. It works best as a foliar spray.
Dr. Bigbud
Well-Known Member
Hey Heisenberg, great thread, I am currently brewing my first tea and I will add it to my ebb and flow set up. I ordered the GH subculture M and B but I wont get here any time soon. I was able to get the Ancient Forest humus and I that's what I used in the 1 gal of tea that I am brewing along with a tablespoon of table sugar. Would you recommend the microbes in an ebb and flow set up with plants in Hydroton? Do I need to run an air stone in my main reservoir to keep the bacteria and fungus alive an well? Thanks for your advice!
Heisenburg,,, a few questions. First, in ur above post u state that res temps below 68 retards most microbe growth. I run a recirc DWC system with water temps around 66-67 degrees. Is this too cold for the tea to be at its best for my plants. I dont have any issues with slime im just running this tea brew as an added benefit for my plants. Secondly,,, My recirc systems are roughly 200 gallons each with each system having a 150 gallon top-off res. when brewing and adding my tea, am i supposed to be adding directly to my system and bypass the top off res? Thirdly,,,If adding tea directly to system....after the initial innoculation of roughly 1 cup of tea per gallon, for a system with as much water as mine would u still only recommend to reactivate the brew in the main system with only 1 cup of tea every3-4 days, or should be adding more like 1-2 gallons???
I figure for each system for initial innoculation I will be adding about 10 gallons of tea. I only flush my systems twice on a 10 week flower. Would i need to flush more often once i start using the tea? And lastly, If im brewing 50 gallons of tea at a time....ROUGHLY how much ancient forest in cheesecloth and how much fungi powder would u recommend using. Ive heard horror stories of people using too many bene fungis directly into the res's?? Ur input is GREATLY appreciated!!!
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Bennies will work just fine in an ebb and flow set up. You should always run an airstone in your main reservoir, an especially so if you run bennies. Home Brewer is doing a journal testing out bennies in an ebb and flow, you may want to have a look.
68 is too cold to expect most of the microbes to grow exponentially. They should still be effective, just not at their optimum, and since you are replacing them every few days it's not a huge concern. With big systems you can scale the tea back, especially if you aren't fighting disease and if you already have an established root base. I would go with 2-3 cups per 10 gallons initial and 1 cup per 10 gal every few days after. If you have no sign of root disease you can get away with adding it once a week. This is really the rate anyone could use who isn't fighting slime; remember it's much easier to prevent slime and rot than it is to purge it.
The best way to introduce it to your system would be to pour a little through each net cup to ensure the root crown is inoculated. As for the top off res, if you have no gunk or slime in there then it is really up to you to inoculate it or not. The bennies won't find food or a home till they get around the roots. You can keep the same flush schedule, but leave the bennies out if you do a final flush.
For 50 gal tea I would use roughly 25 handfuls of AF and 6 Scoops of Myco powder, about 20 tbsp molasses. Make sure to add enough areation, at least a 50wt air pump. In my experience I have never used too much tea, but I have also heard of things going bad when using too much bennies, particularly fungi. The problem seems to worse with certain products, like sub-m and AN products. In all of those cases I think the common thread is that they add food for the bennies directly to the res, and in some cases enzymes, which cause the micro-population to grow out of balance.
many thanks, ur input is greatly appreciated!
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
For those who ordered the mycrogrow powder, I just noticed this little bit of info in the instructions for Great White.
So looks like there is yet another use for this powder. It also stands to reason that you could coat a wet seed in the powder as well. This would probably provide a similar coating as what GHS uses on it's colored seeds, which they claim is an anti-pathogen and root stimulator.
mr.bond
Well-Known Member
Hello Heisenberg,
First, I just wanted to let you know how much the many of us out there appreciate your knowledge, input, and guidance. You are a botanical genius!
Secondly, I hope you don't mind some questions about my grow. I don't mean to hog your thread. I'll add relevant information related to the grow for you and for anyone else reading this to allow possible benefits to their own grows. I have learned a ton reading this whole thread through, twice even.
My plants are a few weeks into veg using DWC 5gal buckets, started from seed (Nirvana White Widow fem) -- for veg I'm using AN Sensi Grow A&B, for flower I'll be using AN Connoisseur A&B. I also have Snow Storm Ultra, and Botanicare Sweet Raw. Also on standby are 3% & 29% H202. Veg light is 1000w Enhanced MH on Digital Ballast. Flower light is 1000w Enhanced HPS on same.
On a few of the buckets I've experienced the dreaded slime forming in the root masses near the waterline. I tried to use 3% H2O2 in with my nutes at first, but it didn't seem to do much. I thought it was keeping it at bay at first, but felt like I wasn't making any real progress. I found this article and switched to your tea; axed the H2O2 for now.
I brewed up some of the EWC tea, using Ancient Forest EWC, Aquashield, and GH Sub-M (no ZHO available). I brewed it using your measurements, distilled water, and for 48 hours solid, then added it in. About 2 days later I cheered! I noticed the roots that were below the water line had become a bright white (formerly a light brownish), and the bundle of slime in the root mass near water level seemed to have been diminished in size/intensity. Then I did a bucket change a few days later.
The next day after replacing the liquids in the buckets (tap water, nutes, tea, pH down), I noticed the remaining bundle of slime had begun to grow again, it had returned in intensity. At around the same time I noticed the tips/edges of the leaves on the lowest leaf nodes were beginning to show signs of slime damage (see picture
). Only on the bottom leaf nodes though. The others look fabulous, including the new growth.
I was worried when I saw the slime damage so I filled up some clean buckets with just tap water and 3% H202 and let the plants sit in that for about an hour (with airstones). Then I changed out and replaced with the normal set of liquids (tap water, nutes, tea, pH down). The next day, the slime looked even worse, much darker. It was like the slime had blown up even more from the new liquid mixtures. Part of me thinks that some of this was due to the GH Sub-M blackish granules sticking to the slime, but I'm really not certain. Today it doesn't look horrible, but it definitely does not look ideal. See these photos:
Big Plant
2nd Plant
It appears to me that new root growth is occurring, but I don't feel comfortable leaving that slime bundle in there. Especially if it's going to continue to affect the roots and bottom leaf nodes. I feel it could potentially overtake the res. I might cry if that happened. LOL
I was thinking about flushing the roots with some 29% H202 that I got from the grow shop, but I'm not sure. How should I do it? Spray it on? Dunk them in? How much? Bottle says to dilute 3ml/gal and thats it. Is this even a good idea? lol... I really want to avoid cutting off the slimed roots. What other options might I have?
Also, I'd like to add some Botanicare Sweet Raw and Snow Storm Ultra into my res. Will the Sweet cause significant problems with the tea and/or the slime? I don't see any issues running the Snow Storm Ultra in res, and also a bit as a foliar. It says its not a carbohydrate- or sugar-based product, but it does caution against bacteria growth. The bottle suggests adding some 35% H2O2, but this probably isn't necessary with the tea in use. Or is it?
Finally, for anyone who ISN'T dealing with slime, this part is for you. If you want a great reason to start using this tea proactively, these pictures should do it for you.
Some of the buckets were never affected by the slime, and I added the tea as a prevention method as described by Heisenberg -- the lateral root growth in incredible! One plant's single first root was barely peaking out of the netpot, and must have grown a full 3" or more down to the liquid within 12-24 hours, no joke! One of the plants was in real trouble, cotyledons dying/browning before the first real nodes were even fully in. I kept the root crown lightly moist with half-strength nutes and the tea, and it totally saved it. You da man!!!!! Maybe we should call you Plant Jesus?
Thank you in advance for any input you could provide into the matter Heisenberg. It appears that you help many people on this forum and we can't thank you enough. Someone make this a damn sticky already! LOL... In all seriousness though, every DWC grower needs to know about this.
Best Regards,
Mr. Bond
First, I just wanted to let you know how much the many of us out there appreciate your knowledge, input, and guidance. You are a botanical genius!
Secondly, I hope you don't mind some questions about my grow. I don't mean to hog your thread. I'll add relevant information related to the grow for you and for anyone else reading this to allow possible benefits to their own grows. I have learned a ton reading this whole thread through, twice even.
My plants are a few weeks into veg using DWC 5gal buckets, started from seed (Nirvana White Widow fem) -- for veg I'm using AN Sensi Grow A&B, for flower I'll be using AN Connoisseur A&B. I also have Snow Storm Ultra, and Botanicare Sweet Raw. Also on standby are 3% & 29% H202. Veg light is 1000w Enhanced MH on Digital Ballast. Flower light is 1000w Enhanced HPS on same.
On a few of the buckets I've experienced the dreaded slime forming in the root masses near the waterline. I tried to use 3% H2O2 in with my nutes at first, but it didn't seem to do much. I thought it was keeping it at bay at first, but felt like I wasn't making any real progress. I found this article and switched to your tea; axed the H2O2 for now.
I brewed up some of the EWC tea, using Ancient Forest EWC, Aquashield, and GH Sub-M (no ZHO available). I brewed it using your measurements, distilled water, and for 48 hours solid, then added it in. About 2 days later I cheered! I noticed the roots that were below the water line had become a bright white (formerly a light brownish), and the bundle of slime in the root mass near water level seemed to have been diminished in size/intensity. Then I did a bucket change a few days later.
The next day after replacing the liquids in the buckets (tap water, nutes, tea, pH down), I noticed the remaining bundle of slime had begun to grow again, it had returned in intensity. At around the same time I noticed the tips/edges of the leaves on the lowest leaf nodes were beginning to show signs of slime damage (see picture
). Only on the bottom leaf nodes though. The others look fabulous, including the new growth. I was worried when I saw the slime damage so I filled up some clean buckets with just tap water and 3% H202 and let the plants sit in that for about an hour (with airstones). Then I changed out and replaced with the normal set of liquids (tap water, nutes, tea, pH down). The next day, the slime looked even worse, much darker. It was like the slime had blown up even more from the new liquid mixtures. Part of me thinks that some of this was due to the GH Sub-M blackish granules sticking to the slime, but I'm really not certain. Today it doesn't look horrible, but it definitely does not look ideal. See these photos:
Big Plant
2nd Plant
It appears to me that new root growth is occurring, but I don't feel comfortable leaving that slime bundle in there. Especially if it's going to continue to affect the roots and bottom leaf nodes. I feel it could potentially overtake the res. I might cry if that happened. LOL
I was thinking about flushing the roots with some 29% H202 that I got from the grow shop, but I'm not sure. How should I do it? Spray it on? Dunk them in? How much? Bottle says to dilute 3ml/gal and thats it. Is this even a good idea? lol... I really want to avoid cutting off the slimed roots. What other options might I have?
Also, I'd like to add some Botanicare Sweet Raw and Snow Storm Ultra into my res. Will the Sweet cause significant problems with the tea and/or the slime? I don't see any issues running the Snow Storm Ultra in res, and also a bit as a foliar. It says its not a carbohydrate- or sugar-based product, but it does caution against bacteria growth. The bottle suggests adding some 35% H2O2, but this probably isn't necessary with the tea in use. Or is it?
Finally, for anyone who ISN'T dealing with slime, this part is for you. If you want a great reason to start using this tea proactively, these pictures should do it for you.
Some of the buckets were never affected by the slime, and I added the tea as a prevention method as described by Heisenberg -- the lateral root growth in incredible! One plant's single first root was barely peaking out of the netpot, and must have grown a full 3" or more down to the liquid within 12-24 hours, no joke! One of the plants was in real trouble, cotyledons dying/browning before the first real nodes were even fully in. I kept the root crown lightly moist with half-strength nutes and the tea, and it totally saved it. You da man!!!!! Maybe we should call you Plant Jesus?
Thank you in advance for any input you could provide into the matter Heisenberg. It appears that you help many people on this forum and we can't thank you enough. Someone make this a damn sticky already! LOL... In all seriousness though, every DWC grower needs to know about this.
Best Regards,
Mr. Bond
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Well Mr Bond, after having a look at your pics/situation and reading up on your nutes a bit, I would say that you are not currently dealing with a slime problem. That looks like the mysterious 'after slime' substance that some of us see, and it's possibly being re-infected with slime after bucket changes. I have roots that look almost identical to yours in a bucket right now. Black splotches in the area of earlier growth, but nice white vigorous growing roots beneath. What caused this for me was using roots excelurator directly in my res. I wanted to test if it was okay to use it directly after the tea took hold. The answer was, no, not for slime prone systems.
The pics to me look totally normal for someone at your stage of slime recovery. The only foliar damage I have ever seen come from slime is in advanced stages when the roots are so covered they can't absorb nutes. I personally wouldn't be concerned about your leaf damage unless it's widespread, continues to spread, or if your growing a familiar strain and you are certain this is abnormal. I would keep an eye on the new growth and overall luster of the plants to give me an idea of their recovery. My advice for now would be; ensure your making the tea correctly with plenty of aeration and continue using it, don't turn to the h202 just yet. You might want to leave out the sweet until you have an established root base. As long as your new roots are not showing signs of mucus coverage then things are on track.
Snow storm is intended for mid to late bloom application. By then your roots should be huge and healthy. For now, steady as she goes.
The pics to me look totally normal for someone at your stage of slime recovery. The only foliar damage I have ever seen come from slime is in advanced stages when the roots are so covered they can't absorb nutes. I personally wouldn't be concerned about your leaf damage unless it's widespread, continues to spread, or if your growing a familiar strain and you are certain this is abnormal. I would keep an eye on the new growth and overall luster of the plants to give me an idea of their recovery. My advice for now would be; ensure your making the tea correctly with plenty of aeration and continue using it, don't turn to the h202 just yet. You might want to leave out the sweet until you have an established root base. As long as your new roots are not showing signs of mucus coverage then things are on track.
Snow storm is intended for mid to late bloom application. By then your roots should be huge and healthy. For now, steady as she goes.