Evolution Or God?

hey ancap, the quotes from 54 that you cited for me, i didnt say those thisng but they are attributed to me. clear?

jeff f said:

i dont know how but i never said those things. i am gussing that me and someone else posted at the same times and the names merged or something. thoose quotes are not mine.

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I quoted you accidentally since your quote html was already copied on my clipboard. My bad. Problem edited and fixed.

at east one of us didnt lose an eye. coulda gotten ugly

ancap said:

Look, I see the sincerity behind your faith, and I'm convinced you're probably a very nice person, but what you are presenting to me is not evidence. Essentially you are saying, "I bowed my head and silently asked a question to an omniscient being, and then received an answer from a supernatural spirit that is one with that being." Isn't it more logical to come to the conclusion that the answer was probably generated internally from your own brain?


Brother, I am a ruthless seeker of the truth! I don't want to be living a lie, so please, if I am wrong in my thinking, show me the right way! I only ask you to use evidence and reason.


I'm sorry, but I really don't know what you are talking about.

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And there in lays your mental and emotional and spiritial disconnect. You think I bow my head. Nope. My God has long hair and hung out with stree people. I also know his voice very well. And it was a question asked outside of me and an aswer I could not discover. The answer did not come from my head. But hey, when there is no God- what are you suppossed to think.

You are not a ruthless seeker. No. You have shut the door on God and have built a wall blocking yourself away from the highest provider of Knowledge, wisdom and understanding. But again, you refuse to see or believe this. Only you are right in the world you live in.
Me and people like Jeff F and others reserve the right to be wrong.

And your final satement proves all our points.

I just wish you would cut the long hair some slack and stop cutting his hair. You are the worst 'styleist' ever. You make him look far worse than he is.
He doesn't even resemble what you say.

You understand nothing of the Bible at all. And what you think you know has so many holes in it you could use it for making drip coffee. And who ever sold you your 'knowledge', sadly, didn't have the sense God gave a bucket of dead fish.

Sorry to have to tell you that.
It's what breeds your hate. Your twisted knowledge of things you know nothing about is like an inncubater for culturing your hate.

If you were to act with kindness even when you are hurt- it might help.
I watched Doc!!! make amends to Medicineman today. That was cool.

Asking a question of God and getting an answer- and answer you could not find in days- to get it by the simple asking in that very moment- What in the name of God do YOU call that?
Oh, yea.... your head.
That's right. For you God is dead.

You seek proof to your answers.
Your mind is made up.
But when someone comes along with and shines some light on the subject- you try to tear them apart.

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Everyday is a chance to change for the better.

Haul me to Heaven said:

Asking a question of God and getting an answer- and answer you could not find in days- to get it by the simple asking in that very moment- What in the name of God do YOU call that?
Oh, yea.... your head.
That's right. For you God is dead.

You seek proof to your answers.
Your mind is made up.
But when someone comes along with and shines some light on the subject- you try to tear them apart.

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Everyday is a chance to change for the better.

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What is so hard about the word evidence? Really? Do you guys just not understand what evidence means? Do you not understand that your god does not wish to be proven, as stated directly in the Bible? Do you know what faith means?

Coincidences happen everyday, it's nothing short of naive to attribute the random occurences of everyday life, to that of a supernatural being. God does not talk to you, if you think he does, you are delusional. You say you hear voices, I'm beginning to get a little concerned. What if God told you to kill someone?

PadawanBater said:

What is so hard about the word evidence? Really? Do you guys just not understand what evidence means? Do you not understand that your god does not wish to be proven, as stated directly in the Bible? Do you know what faith means?

Coincidences happen everyday, it's nothing short of naive to attribute the random occurences of everyday life, to that of a supernatural being. God does not talk to you, if you think he does, you are delusional. You say you hear voices, I'm beginning to get a little concerned. What if God told you to kill someone?

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if i am wrong, when i die...i never find out. if you are wrong.......dude, wouldnt want to be you. and besides, whats wrong with trying to live an honest, kind, loving, life? most christians are some of the nicest folks you ever met. they do great things in the communities. look to christian professional athletes. these guys do amazing things in some really bad curcumstances. and its happening every second of everyday all around the world christians are helping the feablest of us. whats wrong with that?

Evidence in this matter is a personal one. It happends to people who are legit in their quest to meet God. When it happens it's more real than you can possibly imagine. Why else would we be more than willing to be killed for our beliefs.

But all you can do is throw stones at what you don't know and parrot the remarks of others who have refused to seek out the living God.
How many people ahve ventured up that road and came back saying such 'strange things'? And you, who never walked up that road and made it to the destination, mock those who made it.

Joh 14:23-27
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
..............

What more can be said? It's personal. Again- I asked 'teach me something I don't know. And he did. In a big fat way. In a away that I can not dispute. You can mock all you want but others who do what I've done will end up in the same place. The rest won't.
Pretty simple. And that was back in the early 80's. What has happend since then is even more amazing.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I know in whom I believe. I know him and he KNOWS me. It's far more different than jsut 'believeing in God. It's KNOWING him that matters. Not knowing about him- but knowing him as you would know a friend. It's exactly the same.

Haul me to Heaven said:

You think I bow my head. Nope. My God has long hair and hung out with stree people. I also know his voice very well. And it was a question asked outside of me and an aswer I could not discover. The answer did not come from my head. But hey, when there is no God- what are you suppossed to think.

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I almost typed "I folded my hands, bowed my head...", but I took out the folded hands part because I thought that would have been too distracting for you. I should have take the bowed head part out too. It was totally meant to be representative of the act of prayer, and was totally inconsequential to the point I was making. Actually didn't mean offense.

Haul me to Heaven said:

You are not a ruthless seeker. No. You have shut the door on God and have built a wall blocking yourself away from the highest provider of Knowledge, wisdom and understanding. But again, you refuse to see or believe this. Only you are right in the world you live in.

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It's very suspicious to me that you have spent so much time telling me what I AM, rather than addressing my stated concerns about your faith and God. You are blocking an attempt to help me learn about this truth you possess, and using your entire interaction with me to simply define me into a box and label. I'll ask you again, if you possess a greater truth, please show me the evidence of that truth so I can believe too! Sorry, I can't just take your word for it.

Haul me to Heaven said:

And your final satement proves all our points.

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You claim to have a relationship with a loving god yet when I expose my vulnerability of not understanding one of your statements, you use it against me instead of explaining it to me. Is this what your god would want you to do?

Haul me to Heaven said:

You understand nothing of the Bible at all. And what you think you know has so many holes in it you could use it for making drip coffee. And who ever sold you your 'knowledge', sadly, didn't have the sense God gave a bucket of dead fish.

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Nobody sold me my knowledge. Knowledge isn't meant to be sold. If someone sold you your knowledge, this might very well be the fundamental problem in your line of thinking.

Haul me to Heaven said:

Sorry to have to tell you that.
It's what breeds your hate. Your twisted knowledge of things you know nothing about is like an inncubater for culturing your hate.

If you were to act with kindness even when you are hurt- it might help.
I watched Doc!!! make amends to Medicineman today. That was cool.

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I actually feel honestly sorry for you after reading these statements. It really does make me sad for you. Does this count as acting with kindness?

Numbers 31: 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Deuteronomy 20: 10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

Dueteronomy 21: 10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Dueteronomy 22: 23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 22: 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

"Because you have sinned against the Lord, I will make you grope around like the blind. Your blood will be poured into the dust, and your bodies will lie rotting on the ground.” -God (Zephaniah 1:17)

ancap said:

I almost typed "I folded my hands, bowed my head...", but I took out the folded hands part because I thought that would have been too distracting for you. I should have take the bowed head part out too. It was totally meant to be representative of the act of prayer, and was totally inconsequential to the point I was making. Actually didn't mean offense.




It's very suspicious to me that you have spent so much time telling me what I AM, rather than addressing my stated concerns about your faith and God. You are blocking an attempt to help me learn about this truth you possess, and using your entire interaction with me to simply define me into a box and label. I'll ask you again, if you possess a greater truth, please show me the evidence of that truth so I can believe too! Sorry, I can't just take your word for it.



You claim to have a relationship with a loving god yet when I expose my vulnerability of not understanding one of your statements, you use it against me instead of explaining it to me. Is this what your god would want you to do?



Nobody sold me my knowledge. Knowledge isn't meant to be sold. If someone sold you your knowledge, this might very well be the fundamental problem in your line of thinking.




I actually feel honestly sorry for you after reading these statements. It really does make me sad for you. Does this count as acting with kindness?

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I miss read your very last sentence in my first reponce to your post. Old eyes. And very gun shy from all the fighting. Please accept my apologizes for being snarky.

I just read something that smack of hate. Dillusional etc.
If you were to seek out God in the manner and fashion in which I did. You may have also expericed and experience what I do/have.

It's all personal. The eveidence is in the voice. And much more.
I ask a lot from God and expect an answer on way or the other. It's funny how he gives an answer. I only mentioned the voice in my post. That happend many times but he also responds in ways only you will know. That's the personal part.

One last thing.... the Bible is the only book that reads you as you read it. When people say the word is alive- they mean it. Once again- you have to walk up the hill to see for your self.

So, it all comes down to one simple thing. "Only those willing to know will know what it means". That is another verse.

Again- my bad for being a bit defensive but with all the smack downs happening in these forms- I guess I took your words a bit hard. And I mis- read the very last sentence too.
Please forgive. As I am sorry.

post 54 last line. I read
'And I don't want to know what you are talking about.'
But you actually wrote "I don't know what you are talking about".
My mistake. Reading too fast for old eyes.

Haul me to Heaven said:

Again- my bad for being a bit defensive but with all the smack downs happening in these forms- I guess I took your words a bit hard. And I mis- read the very last sentence too. Please forgive. As I am sorry.

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Water under the bridge.

I simply say what I believe to be the truth of the matter, and if that cuts to the core of some people, that wasn't my intention. I use the term "delusion" to mean specifically a false belief that is resistent to reason and confrontation with the actual truth. I don't throw this around to hurt people's feelings but to accurately communicate what I believe is going on. It is also important to note that delusion is not synonymous with being psychotic or dumb. I think aquiring wisdom is all about casting away our delusions. I'm very open to hearing evidence that would support your theories, but I suspect the only evidence is experiential.

ancap said:

Water under the bridge.

I simply say what I believe to be the truth of the matter, and if that cuts to the core of some people, that wasn't my intention. I use the term "delusion" to mean specifically a false belief that is resistent to reason and confrontation with the actual truth. I don't throw this around to hurt people's feelings but to accurately communicate what I believe is going on. It is also important to note that delusion is not synonymous with being psychotic or dumb. I think aquiring wisdom is all about casting away our delusions. I'm very open to hearing evidence that would support your theories, but I suspect the only evidence is experiential.

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Experimantal?? That is so sterile. The rock group Yes made a good point when they sung "There's one difference between you and I - your heart is inside your head."
Fine. Life is just one grand experiment. So our evidence is 'experimental? That doesn't even make sense.

Plus your post, that has yet to appear on this site, can not be taken out of context. It's also from the Mosic law befor the Judges and well before Grace. What you may not understand about dispensation of time may be harming your understanding of God in relation to that time. Anyhow... I've been waiting to post a reply but must also power down for the night.
Cheers Ancap

Haul me to Heaven said:

Experimantal?? That is so sterile. The rock group Yes made a good point when they sung "There's one difference between you and I - your heart is inside your head."
Fine. Life is just one grand experiment. So our evidence is 'experimental? That doesn't even make sense.

Plus your post, that has yet to appear on this site, can not be taken out of context. It's also from the Mosic law befor the Judges and well before Grace. What you may not understand about dispensation of time may be harming your understanding of God in relation to that time. Anyhow... I've been waiting to post a reply but must also power down for the night.
Cheers Ancap

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Read that one more time. It's "experiential, not experimental".

You may have to explain to me how some of these quotes may have been taken out of context. Regardless of the time they were written in relation to other events, or in relation to Christ's "fulfilling the law", these quotes reveal something very dark about the nature of the men who spoke them. Such sick instructions also says something about the character of a god who claims to be the same "yesterday, today and tomorrow." Surely universal morality did not fundamentally change since Christ's death. The killing of children and rape of women must surely have been wrong then as they are now.

HMTH, I think I discovered the problem. As a skeptic, I won't accept anecdotal evidence, I'm not going to accept someones experience as scientific evidence of anything because human beings are bad at recording reality. Human senses are very easily deceived, just look at this picture;

Now, would you say that anything on that picture is actually moving... of course not, but your eyes trick your brain into thinking there is. Optical illusion. Same shit happens with all our other senses.

I hope you realize why I, or any legal system in western society, cannot take such claims as evidence. Your personal experience has zero weight when presenting a case for the existence of God. Any other explanation you could come up with is just as likely as the one you inserted without any evidence, isn't it? You simply think it's God speaking to you because you were thinking about God at the time, you were specifically asking God for a response, then when you got what you ''felt'' was a response, you attributed it to your God, and that was that.

...now, could you imagine you try to pull the same thing in a court room or science lecture??

Hopefully you get the point.

You could have a million of these same exact experiences, it wouldn't matter at all. You need hard evidence, substaintial, tangible, proof of your claim. Stuff I can look at and test. Stuff I can recreate. I need to test something. There is nothing to test.

Proof, evidence, is NOT some personal experience. It's facts based on reality that can be predicted and recreated in experiments based on those predictions. Science is not subjective. You don't interpret science.

One of my all time favorite quotes;

"maybe we should stop calling it science, and just call it... reality!"

Again. It's a personal relationship. It needs to be proven to your - each one of us- in a personal way. One could provide you with the evidence- the planet you're standing on but it wouldn't work. It didn't work for me. I've told you what happend to me and still you want me to prove God to you. That's not how HE works. He proves himself to those who seek.

And as for the verses Ancap presented, I will private messaage you on what I understand about them. One thing is certain check the translation of the bible you're reading. A number of your verses do not even appear in the KJV. The NIV has a boat load of very odd verses too. Ones that don't even appear in the KJV or Strongs.

What you are looking for begins witrh understanding everything surrounding the following:


Gen 6:1-9
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
............
we'll be gone for most of the day. No chance to reply.
Hope this helps. And, 'sons of God' , used here in the ancient Hebrew text, means fallen angles. Not understanding this would create a mess. Fallen angles haveing sex with human women. No wonder God was ticked at them all.

You sure you want to know what most pastor won't teach??

Back later- have a great day you all.

PadawanBater: Your picture appears to be an illusion. But when you STOP and look at one single seed- doesn't matter which one- the 'illusion' stops. Don't be confussed. Stop the illusion- just focus on one 'seed'.

Haul me to Heaven said:

Again. It's a personal relationship. It needs to be proven to your - each one of us- in a personal way. One could provide you with the evidence- the planet you're standing on but it wouldn't work. It didn't work for me. I've told you what happend to me and still you want me to prove God to you. That's not how HE works. He proves himself to those who seek.

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I was a devoted "Christ follower" for years and years, and I don't say this to win points in the argument. I certainly felt like I had a very close relationship with God. I inundated myself in the scripture, witnessed to people in other countries, and was very involved in the drama program at a mega church (I'm not confusing deeds with my relationship with God, only demonstrating my devotion). It wasn't until late college that I began to have serious doubts. I didn't become an atheist overnight, and calling myself an atheist was very hard at first given all the Christian programming. It wasn't one big thing that led me away from the faith. It was a magnitude of little things that just didn't add up. You come to realize that in order to accept Christ and the "word", one must dispell all external logic and create new rules that only apply to the faith. The god of the bible also seemed indecisive, vindictive, hateful, genocidal and just plain evil. I just couldn't reconcile this with the loving God in my head no matter what council I sought. I spent about two years in a state of confusion and haze over my faith. I cried out to God for answers. After an accumulation of mountains of evidence and doubt against a theistic god, I decided to dispell the illusion, and it was the best thing I've ever done in my life!

Hope this gives you some insight into my background. It doesn't prove anything, but it is my experience.

Haul me to Heaven said:

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

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Is this the same Noah that got drunk and laid around naked? The same Noah that cursed his son's kid for eternity for telling his brothers that their father was drunk and naked? Isn't this the same story that was used to later justify the enslavement of Ham's descendants by the Israelites?