Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???

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Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
cannawizard said:
*you make valid points, since we don't do enough scientific studies on the actual growth of this plant in real lab environments --
(EX: plant life/maturation/end cycle, resin/thc/terpene outputs, what exactly happens under the microscope, etc etc) then everything really falls under "conjecture" :)

instead of arguing for the sake of arguing, try experimenting with a couple strains with the leaves on and green during final cut, and see if you notice anything different~
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EXACTLY!! nothing absolutely nothing compares to seeing it for yourself...I did this a few times and the green to the end has always out produced with as much or more resin production and actually a tad better potency as well...resin production is great and all but I have grown/used plants with very minuscule trichome coverage that was soaring hold onto your pants wild toad ride (my grail is trippy weed, indicas IMO are only for sleeping) but yes ...do an HONEST experiment with no expectations of outcome and see for yourself...the ONLY way YOU will KNOW

ps- hazey...there are a few tips I can share which support trichome production...lower temps towards the END of flowering, low relative humidity (constant low even and especially lights out) increased SULFUR content of feed and pk boost last week or two of flower...oh and blue/and or intense light...but these last two are the least effective...well fed low rh exposed plants triche up greatly ime...as to the remove leaves or not debate I am of the opinion that basic botany dictates...leaves are the "factories" which produce the fuel the plant needs to do EVERYTHING it does...even trichome production so therefore I concentrate on retaining maximum number of green healthy leaves and do not concern myself much with growing bud or trichomes...the more food, fuel, available the more the plant can do thereby it will grow more bud/trichomes because it has more food/fuel/resources available to do so...seems obvious logic to me but what do I know? That I love growing and using this plant
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
akula said:
For example; about 8 years ago I declared war on a forest of blackberry bushes on my property. I got a chainsaw and axe and cut them down. Then I ran a rotor machine with a large blade to cut their roots down a few feet. 8 years later my daughter regularly hikes down there and collects large buckets of rich juicy and sweet blackberries.
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That's one good way to increase production, hah! You took one blackberry bush and created a hundred!

You probably realize by now that cannabis culture for noobs (and others that will never get it) is driven by hype, false information, false dreams hawked by cannabis specific conmen to sell product, re-inventing the wheel with trickery and gimmicks..... and basically treating this weed like something it's not.

Speaking of tomatoes, got some special greenhouse F1 maters that are produced in the Netherlands. They are just turning red. Growing very well. I don't pull off the "suckers" either.

UB
 
crazyhazey

crazyhazey

Well-Known Member
cannawizard said:
*you make valid points, since we don't do enough scientific studies on the actual growth of this plant in real lab environments --
(EX: plant life/maturation/end cycle, resin/thc/terpene outputs, what exactly happens under the microscope, etc etc) then everything really falls under "conjecture" :)

instead of arguing for the sake of arguing, try experimenting with a couple strains with the leaves on and green during final cut, and see if you notice anything different~
Click to expand...
will for sure try it out when i got some clones so the strain factor doesnt come into play, over the years ive always found more green leaves usually means my product isn't nearly mature enough but it doesnt hurt to try out a new method. ill report back as soon as i see anything significant, i might train both however because i just fuckin hate popcorn nugs, hand cramps aint worth it come trimmin time. could be a few months till i got some good mother but ill make sure to post it somewhere. i also make BHO daily so ill make a batch out of both and do a smoke report, and ill have to roll one up in a raw paper to the true taste w/o solvents. and im not trying to argue just to argue, i want to make sure that no bullshit gets spread over rollitup because thats happened to all of us, people still tell me to flush plants with ice water however that kills plants if theres not enough soil, but cause one person heard it they spread it everywhere.
 
crazyhazey

crazyhazey

Well-Known Member
Kite High said:
EXACTLY!! nothing absolutely nothing compares to seeing it for yourself...I did this a few times and the green to the end has always out produced with as much or more resin production and actually a tad better potency as well...resin production is great and all but I have grown/used plants with very minuscule trichome coverage that was soaring hold onto your pants wild toad ride (my grail is trippy weed, indicas IMO are only for sleeping) but yes ...do an HONEST experiment with no expectations of outcome and see for yourself...the ONLY way YOU will KNOW

ps- hazey...there are a few tips I can share which support trichome production...lower temps towards the END of flowering, low relative humidity (constant low even and especially lights out) increased SULFUR content of feed and pk boost last week or two of flower...oh and blue/and or intense light...but these last two are the least effective...well fed low rh exposed plants triche up greatly ime...as to the remove leaves or not debate I am of the opinion that basic botany dictates...leaves are the "factories" which produce the fuel the plant needs to do EVERYTHING it does...even trichome production so therefore I concentrate on retaining maximum number of green healthy leaves and do not concern myself much with growing bud or trichomes...the more food, fuel, available the more the plant can do thereby it will grow more bud/trichomes because it has more food/fuel/resources available to do so...seems obvious logic to me but what do I know? That I love growing and using this plant
Click to expand...
well damn i really want to try this method to see for myself, should you just keep feedin N throughout to keep em green? havent heard of that part about sulfur before but ill keep note of it when i buying nutes next time, id expect worm castings/bat guano to have some but ill look into it if more is necessary. and i know what you mean but do leaves in the middle of a bush do any real work besides storing for later? w/o light they arent photosynthesizing necessarily, however i do get the point made. i mean how many leaves can you really leave before you risk a higher chance of mold, overlooked infestations and way too many popcorn nugs(unless you train/scrog and spread your plant out, not sure if you do or not)? im not sure if your nugs fill out completely or mature evenly when shadowed but ive never seen such a thing, not with the strains ive grown at least. ill take your word though kite high, seeing it first hand however will be interesting. thanks for the info w/o all the childish remarks ive seen in all these other posts, its sad what debating has come to on RIU.
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
If they are staying green they will be photo'ing otherwise they yellow in too little light

and you put light down there

check it out:



and adequate air movement no mold problems

I use DG Foliage Pro , supplement with Liquid Karma and Calmag- Plus, A tad of Jacks acid special occasionally, throughout the grow and supplement in Flower with DG mag-pro...adjusting the amounts as instructed by the plants
 
crazyhazey

crazyhazey

Well-Known Member
Kite High said:
If they are staying green they will be photo'ing otherwise they yellow in too little light

and you put light down there

check it out:



and adequate air movement no mold problems

I use DG Foliage Pro , supplement with Liquid Karma and Calmag- Plus, A tad of Jacks acid special occasionally, throughout the grow and supplement in Flower with DG mag-pro...adjusting the amounts as instructed by the plants
Click to expand...
never thought about it like that, and outdoors you got a better chance of mold especially if its humid and you get unexpected rains. consider yourself lucky to be able to grow indoors, running the A/C for it down here kills your electric bill.
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
The grow room has its own mini split ac. It doesn't use as much as 2 400 watt lights at all. These things are truly efficient. And the room is completely sealed so that helps tremendously as well. 1 20lbs tank co2 lasts 2 months as well. Like I said it is really sealed.
 
slowbus

slowbus

New Member
I have always had poor performance,small root mass and low yields.I have always trimmed off the leaves.Now my mites are beat down and I'm leaving them.
 
HeartlandHank

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
UB...
I took your advice on proper NPK balance... my yields and plants health went up.
I took your advice on not defoliating... my yields and plants health went up.
I'm stubbornly hanging on to pinching out lower bud sites up until the 3rd week of flower.
I don't like to remove the lower branches unless the growth tip of that branch is very small and completely shadowed.
I instead remove just the bud sites, leaving the fan leaves, up to the point of the branch that typically produces decent buds.

do you think I am still hurting my yields/quality/etc...?

If it only slightly hurt yield, i'm ok with that, as i mostly do this to make room for being able to hand water the plants and keep dead leaves out of the coco.

People speak of the "energy" directed to the top... I have seen that you question what this "energy" is.

Do you feel that removing these little bud sites completely wipes that weight from the harvest? Or do you think that if done early in flower there is an increase in buds elsewhere with the absence of the lower, small bud sites?
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
HeartlandHank said:
UB...
I took your advice on proper NPK balance... my yields and plants health went up.
I took your advice on not defoliating... my yields and plants health went up.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you focused on the only thing that matters and what I've been preaching for years - the best and most root and foliage mass you can muster going into harvest. Good on ya!

I'm stubbornly hanging on to pinching out lower bud sites up until the 3rd week of flower.
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Knock yourself out. Me? I've got better things to do. I always do a double harvest for my plants and those lower buds do bulk up a bit and add to my yields.

I don't like to remove the lower branches unless the growth tip of that branch is very small and completely shadowed.
I instead remove just the bud sites, leaving the fan leaves, up to the point of the branch that typically produces decent buds.
Click to expand...
Again, even it's shadowed, don't worry about it. Only in cannabis forums does this "issue" come up, and it comes up with every new crop of noobies who seem hell bent on fighting a self contrived war. There isn't a farmer or greenhouse grower of annuals that worries about the lower foliage.....don't care if they're growing pomegranates, citrus, apples, mums, roses, orchids, lettuce or herbs in aquaculture or what.

do you think I am still hurting my yields/quality/etc...?[

If it only slightly hurt yield, i'm ok with that, as i mostly do this to make room for being able to hand water the plants and keep dead leaves out of the coco.
Click to expand...
Yank off non-productive, yellowing or disease riddled leaves no matter where they're located.

Good luck,
Uncle Ben
 
Sir.Ganga

Sir.Ganga

New Member
Uncle Ben said:
And if you had left it alone it would have yielded "just over 26 oz".
Click to expand...
I seriously doubt that...Proper leaf removal causes what you see in them pics, by the way AWSOME pics!

Removimg leaves in a manner that benifets the plant can and does increase yeild. The 2 main reasons for this is one...allows light to penatrate the canopy and the second and more important(IMO) reason is energy transfer.

At a point in the life cycle a storage leaf will begin to draw energy instead of store energy for the girls so it only make sense to remove those leaves. Knowing when and which ones is key.

If your looking for popcorn buds, non-leaf removal is a good technique to use.
 
Sir.Ganga

Sir.Ganga

New Member
HeartlandHank said:
UB...
I took your advice on proper NPK balance... my yields and plants health went up.
I took your advice on not defoliating... my yields and plants health went up.
I'm stubbornly hanging on to pinching out lower bud sites up until the 3rd week of flower.
I don't like to remove the lower branches unless the growth tip of that branch is very small and completely shadowed.
I instead remove just the bud sites, leaving the fan leaves, up to the point of the branch that typically produces decent buds.

do you think I am still hurting my yields/quality/etc...?

If it only slightly hurt yield, i'm ok with that, as i mostly do this to make room for being able to hand water the plants and keep dead leaves out of the coco.

People speak of the "energy" directed to the top... I have seen that you question what this "energy" is.

Do you feel that removing these little bud sites completely wipes that weight from the harvest? Or do you think that if done early in flower there is an increase in buds elsewhere with the absence of the lower, small bud sites?
Click to expand...
Whatever you remove from the lower section of your plants you will make up in the weight of the tops. Removing leaves at the proper time IS the key to maxing your yeild.

As for energy...the plant uptakes nutes and water and disperses it throughout the plant, larger fan leave are considered as storage decices for the plant and if needed the plant will use the energy from the leaves to survive. Once the plant is manipulated by removing storage leaves the energy to keep that leaf alive is used for other purposes like flowers, and thats what were all are here for. Leaving your leaves on produces a lot of popcorn in the lower areas but properly removing leaves and lower limbs transfers that popcorn weight to the tops.

You will not loose yeild or quality, so do you want popcorn or clubs.
 
stumpjumper

stumpjumper

Well-Known Member
Only 2 more weeks to get necrotic..... I don't think it's happening. I'm going to cut a few leaves off today, for a few bottoms still in the shade and clearly behind the ones that aren't shaded..















 
PSUAGRO.

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
I don't even know why UB even bothers with this crap.......nothing but logical/industry proven advice given by the old fart;-)

*Cough*........If you don't know who wrote this/well you have more studying to do........be safe and happy growing

Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug Cannabis cultivation. In the mind of the cultivator, several reasons exist for removing leaves. Many feel that large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant, and therefore the flowering clusters will be smaller. It is felt that by removing the leaves, surplus energy will be available, and large floral clusters will be formed. Also, some feel that inhibitors of flowering, synthesized in the leaves during the long noninductive days of summer, may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the noninductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower, and maturation will be accelerated. Large leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small atrophied floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.
In actuality, few if any of the theories behind leafing give any indication of validity. Indeed, leafing possibly serves to defeat its original purpose. Large leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of Cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth sub stances. They also create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. Premature removal of leaves may cause stunting, because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced. As these leaves age and lose their ability to carry on photo synthesis they turn chlorotie (yellow) and fall to the ground. In humid areas care is taken to remove the yellow or brown leaves, because they might invite attack by fungus. During chlorosis the plant breaks down substances, such as chlorophylls, and translocates the molecular components to a new growing part of the plant, such as the flowers. Most Cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage, and this trend continues until senescence. It is more efficient for the plant to reuse the energy and various molecular components of existing chlorophyll than to synthesize new chlorophyll at the time of flowering. During flowering this energy is needed to form floral clusters and ripen seeds.
Removing large amounts of leaves may interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. If this metabolic change occurs too late in the season it could interfere with floral development and delay maturation. If any floral inhibitors are removed, the intended effect of accelerating flowering will probably be counteracted by metabolic upset in the plant. Removal of shade leaves does facilitate more light reaching the center of the plant, but if there is not enough food energy produced in the leaves, the small internal floral clusters will probably not grow any larger. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic change.
If leaves must be removed, the petiole is cut so that at least an inch remains attached to the stalk. Weaknesses in the limb axis at the node result if the leaves are pulled off at the abscission layer while they are still green. Care is taken to see that the shriveling petiole does not invite fungus attack.
It should be remembered that, regardless of strain or environmental conditions, the plant strives to reproduce, and reproduction is favored by early maturation. This produces a situation where plants are trying to mature and reproduce as fast as possible. Although the purpose of leafing is to speed maturation, disturbing the natural progressive growth of a plant probably interferes with its rapid development.
Cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and water and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the natural life cycle of Cannabis will affect productivity. Imaginative combinations and adaptations of propagation techniques exist, based on specific situations of cultivation. Logical choices are made to direct the natural growth cycle of Cannabis to favor the timely maturation of those products sought by the cultivator, without sacrificing seed or clone production.






 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
PSUAGRO. said:
I don't even know why UB even bothers with this crap.......nothing but logical/industry proven advice given by the old fart;-)

*Cough*........If you don't know who wrote this/well you have more studying to do........be safe and happy growing

Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug Cannabis cultivation. In the mind of the cultivator, several reasons exist for removing leaves. Many feel that large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant, and therefore the flowering clusters will be smaller. It is felt that by removing the leaves, surplus energy will be available, and large floral clusters will be formed. Also, some feel that inhibitors of flowering, synthesized in the leaves during the long noninductive days of summer, may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the noninductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower, and maturation will be accelerated. Large leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small atrophied floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.
In actuality, few if any of the theories behind leafing give any indication of validity. Indeed, leafing possibly serves to defeat its original purpose. Large leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of Cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth sub stances. They also create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. Premature removal of leaves may cause stunting, because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced. As these leaves age and lose their ability to carry on photo synthesis they turn chlorotie (yellow) and fall to the ground. In humid areas care is taken to remove the yellow or brown leaves, because they might invite attack by fungus. During chlorosis the plant breaks down substances, such as chlorophylls, and translocates the molecular components to a new growing part of the plant, such as the flowers. Most Cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage, and this trend continues until senescence. It is more efficient for the plant to reuse the energy and various molecular components of existing chlorophyll than to synthesize new chlorophyll at the time of flowering. During flowering this energy is needed to form floral clusters and ripen seeds.
Removing large amounts of leaves may interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. If this metabolic change occurs too late in the season it could interfere with floral development and delay maturation. If any floral inhibitors are removed, the intended effect of accelerating flowering will probably be counteracted by metabolic upset in the plant. Removal of shade leaves does facilitate more light reaching the center of the plant, but if there is not enough food energy produced in the leaves, the small internal floral clusters will probably not grow any larger. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic change.
If leaves must be removed, the petiole is cut so that at least an inch remains attached to the stalk. Weaknesses in the limb axis at the node result if the leaves are pulled off at the abscission layer while they are still green. Care is taken to see that the shriveling petiole does not invite fungus attack.
It should be remembered that, regardless of strain or environmental conditions, the plant strives to reproduce, and reproduction is favored by early maturation. This produces a situation where plants are trying to mature and reproduce as fast as possible. Although the purpose of leafing is to speed maturation, disturbing the natural progressive growth of a plant probably interferes with its rapid development.
Cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and water and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the natural life cycle of Cannabis will affect productivity. Imaginative combinations and adaptations of propagation techniques exist, based on specific situations of cultivation. Logical choices are made to direct the natural growth cycle of Cannabis to favor the timely maturation of those products sought by the cultivator, without sacrificing seed or clone production.
Click to expand...
Yep.

Thoin' pearls before swine,
UB
 
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