For Medicinaluseonly ...

Hi, Med ...

Would you check this site out, then tell us where they differ from you in their political views? http://www.cpusa.org/article/view/758

Thanks ...

Vi

I didn't bother to read the whole site, but from the few pages i've read, they sound spot on. I've never considered my self a communist, more of a socialist I guess. Yes I am for the greater good of the society as opposed to the gain of the few, If that makes me a communist, then so be it. The thing I liked most about the site was the way it described the Capitalist government. No truer words were ever written. Maybe you should take an unbiased look at the site and judge for your self. If you can't see that America is the dominate force creating Capitalism all over the globe for the corporations, then you must be blind. What worries me more is how many of you are watching this and reveling in it. Capitalism is the devils own work. Remember Jesus said to love one another, not to screw over each other, and basically that is what Capitalism is all about. I don't like the examples of communistic governments we have witnessed since I've been alive, so don't throw that in my face. Most of the com. govts. were inherently evil. For a communist govt to work, you would have to remove greed from the hearts of man (Divine Intervention) and I don't see that happening any time soon. so guess what, I guess I'm a communist after all, who knew. Please don't send the death squad after me (Joe McCarthy) etc.

Well, that was the point of directing you to the site. Now you know what you are politically. Also, you should know that communist governments have murdered over tens of millions of their own countrymen in an effort to defy human nature. Capitalism may not be an entirely moral economic system ... but its the MOST moral system available at this time in history.

Vi

After reading Merriam-Websters definition of Liberal (the Ann Coulter Blog) I feel I fit more generally in that classification if you must classify everyone. Ie. Liberal: not narrow in opinion or judgement : tolerant: generous: bountiful: not literal: not conservative! I might argue the conservative part as I am fiscally conservative when it comes to the Govt. These don't seem to be "bad" traits to me, if so then am I to assume the opposite for you ie: (narrow in mind and judgement: un-tolerant: greedy: stingy,non-productive: literal and conservative) those don't seem like good traits to me, except maybe the conservative part! communist governments are a blasphemey upon the people because they've traditionally been run by dictators which have killed millions, you're right! Capitalist societies (govt.s) have killed millions in more sneaky ways, not in their own countries, but in countries that have had dictators set up or propped up by the capitalist govt.s. Somosa, Edie Amin, the So. American right wing govt.s with death squads, Nicaraugua Paraguay, Argentina, Chile, countless African countries, all in the name of Capitalism. Corporations rule the world, and all the politicians in the supposed Democracies. The old addage, the Military-Industrial complex rules, has never been more true than now. Why even now the CIA runs Panama with a puppet govt. They even sold some parts of the Canal to the Chinese, Go figure that one! No I've got no notes professor so don't ask!

Well, I don't consider myself to be a conservative at all. I am a liberal in the classic sense ... a Jeffersonian Liberal, if you will. We believe in free minds, free markets and a VERY limited government.

One of the mistakes folks of your mindset make is in assuming that if someone disagrees with you, they must be a member of the opposing party ... the Republicans. I have given you links to other parties that closely mirror my thinking. The Republican Party wasn't among them.

Based upon what you have written in previous posts, I would say that you are on the extreme left politically ... a communist even. You would fit right in with the Michael Moores and the Jane Fondas of the world.

You hate capitalism and love the over-reaching umbrella of the State. You would convert most of large industry (health care for example) from the private sector and hand it over to federal/state bureaucrats to run. You hate achievement beyond the average. You hate wealth creation, which means that you are anti-human, as self interest is human nature. You are for stiffling the human spirit. You, like most socialists/communists, look at your fellow citizens as mere milk cows, from which you can extract the unearned to "even the playing field." And the very sad thing is, you will never recognize it for the theft that it is.

I will take my political viewpoint over your's any day of the week. Nuff said.

Vi

My my, are we getting touchy. I must have hit a nerve. If you're so liberal, why don't you agree with the Generous thing, why are you so intolerant of other views, why are you so narrow in your opinions and judgements. You certainly are narrow minded when judging me. I think your liberal views are kinda directed to one postulate: let me have my money and leave me the F alone!

Man can't we all just get a bong?

medicinaluseonly said:

My my, are we getting touchy. I must have hit a nerve. If you're so liberal, why don't you agree with the Generous thing, why are you so intolerant of other views, why are you so narrow in your opinions and judgements. You certainly are narrow minded when judging me. I think your liberal views are kinda directed to one postulate: let me have my money and leave me the F alone!

Click to expand...

I'm not "getting touchy" at all. I'm just holding up a mirror to your face in order to reflect your views back to you.

I am very generous at heart and believe in charity. Here's where you and I differ: I believe in private charity and you believe in government charity. There's a huge difference. Private charity is voluntary and is in accordance with the teachings of the Lord. Government charity is not charity at all. It is nothing more than assets taken from one, by force and threat of violence, to be given to another. I believe the Lord had a Commandment forbiding that sort of thing. Ummm ... something about "Thou Shalt Not Steal" I believe.

Vi

Here's a quote: "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and Give unto God what is God's". You fight the Ceasar thing too much. Protesting against excessive taxation is a good thing. Protesting against fair taxation is whining. It is inherently fair to tax the rich porportionally higher, Because: what they have left after taxes still far exceeds the amount needed to live like the majority! Now if you can respond in a dialog, fine! If you insist in a monologue, I'm not interested!

Med ... please read this in the positive light in which it was written:


If one looks on the reported actions and sayings of Jesus in the gospels, I don't think you could at all argue that a follower of His could be Socialist, at least not politically. Yet I've heard the claims that those on the Left makes over and over, almost as a slight against Christianity, perhaps especially against the notoriously Republican Religious Right. "If you are so Christian, why are you so Capitalist?" As if to be a Capitalist is to not care about one's fellow man. Rather, they should vote Democrat. It's the religious right thing to do.

On the contrary, to be Capitalist, you must ESPECIALLY care about your fellow man. If you don't, your fellow man will not reward you by buying what you're selling. Then how can you employ others of your fellow man to make more widgets to sell, in turn allowing them to support a family and prosper? No. Success just equals greed plus adequately guaging the desires of your fellow man. A lovely combination of self-interest and servanthood.

So what is Socialism and what did Jesus teach? Socialism is "to each according to his need, from each according to his ability" by decree of an all-powerful state. In other words, do what you can for the collective and the collective will give you what you need to survive.

Problem is, the individual underestimates what they should give to the collective, and the collective underestimates what the individual should get. Result: poverty for all, productivity for none.

Bigger problem: the giving to the collective is done at gun point and threat of imprisonment and force. This "compassionate" form of government, and its sister Communism is responsible for more misery, imprisonment and democide than any other. You put Jesus right in the middle of this nasty little mess and you got yourself an excellent straw man.


What did Jesus teach, then? Giving? Yes. Force? Imprisonment? Jack-booted-ness? No, emphatically. In fact, Jesus was not at all concerned with the power of the state, which was the major reasons the Jews did not accept Him as their Messiah. He was not what they were looking for. They are still looking for a great political leader who will overthrow their enemies, but that's another subject. Jesus taught compassion and concern, empathy for your fellow man, but through free-will. Jesus asked a lot from a lot of people, but it was always their decision. It is only through your own volition that a good deed has spiritual value. Man looks at the outside, but God looks on the heart. The Pharisees praying openly and loudly on the streets did not impress Jesus for this reason. The nearly unnoticed widow's mite did.


Even the Virtuous Woman of Proverbs was so obviously a Capitalist for the good of her family (though a lot of modern devotionals turn her into a housewife who fastidiously cleans all day). She was a business woman who earned money and made investments for the security of her family and employees. She also gave to charity of her own free will and excess. Her hard work enabled her to give to others.

Consider Proverbs 31:

10 [c] A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her servant girls.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.


This is the Bible presenting an ideal. Is she a Capitalist? Or is she a Socialist waiting for a hand-out and wondering when its her turn in the gulag? She is bright, optimistic, clever and industrious. She is also compassionate, light-hearted, and loving. She loves life and makes the most of it. Is she the suppressed 1950's housewife waiting at home for her man to provide everything while she waits obediantly? (desperately) No.


Ok, so this is not about woman's place in society and the Bible, but the point is people misconstrue the Bible's actual teaching with what religious people SAY it teaches. The Bible does not teach Communism/Socialism, it teaches free-will and individualism. Charity, in the Biblical sense, does not extend to extracting it from others at gunpoint or government coercion. It might involve instead, rational discussion to convince your fellow man to be charitable, (findraising) but the use of force is patently un-Christian, and so is Communism/Socialism.


That's right, Jesus was a Libertarian.

Oh.Vred, "Give unto ceasar" and let God sort it out! (Taxes: the fair share of earnings paid by the constitutes of a society to promote the genarel welfare of the society and retain law and order) OK time for your rant, Yaaawwwnnn!

Looks like I'll have to read through this thread and help point out where Vi is wrong and at least help you boost your argument medicinaluseonly.

Get it on Dank ... at least you will be less emotional and more articulate than Med. In his liberal compassionate heart ... he said he wants to meet me in perrson so he can "beat the shit" out of me. *lol* Can't you just see two grampas rolling around in the street? I don't know about him, but my fucking arthirits is killing me.

Vi

Rolling in the streets, sounds like fun, we have to roll out of sight now!

Hey, that was funny!

I was wondering ... did you read my long thread re: Jesus & Charity? I put a lot of work into that and was hoping you'd comment a bit.

Vi

*lol* I'm not really worried about the walkers, it's my damned teeth I don't want to lose. Replacing dentures is expensive!

Vi

You should have brushed and flossed more, I've still got most of mine, enough to smile with and chew a good steak. Also I avoided the blows to the mouth in fights as my martial arts training mandated.

Capitalism is the right way. We wouldn't be here now if not for it. Look what happened to the USSR, their whole economy collapsed, the people were repressed. They had to queue for tins of spam and milk. I like this society, there's room for improvement, but it's the best it can be at the moment. Arguing over middle-left and middle-right is far more difficult because both are essentially the same. The extremes of the two is easier because socialism just doesn't work, it takes away our incentive to do well. Labels us in a Huxley-type world of a, b and c with no hope of gaining betterment.

What you say may be true skunkushybrid, but when corporations start
invading the halls of government to set the agenda of pure profit and damn the torpedoes (which has happened for the past 26 years and dates back to the Reagan Administration) then the ideals on which this country was founded on go by the wayside.

What has happened (and nobody has noticed it) is corporate communism.
Also the consumerism model that has been set since the 1950's is beginning to break down, Many can not afford to buy what is being offered and our children will always hold dear what they can not achieve. It has all but eliminated a climant where small business can survive. Yeah our stock market has picked up over the last week, but many have short memories, what is happening now with the stock market is exactly what happened just before the stock market crashed back in July of 1999 (I lost $80,000 in one day.)

Besides you say that Communism doesn't work?
Look at China, a communist society that injected just enough capitalism to make a profit and now is the worlds fastest rising economy. If we as a nation are going to survive, we will have to adopt many parts of socialism.