For Medicinaluseonly ...

Very true! No-one on this forum has addressed That point. In consumerism (capitalism) the consumer must have the means to consume. By offshoring the job market, the consumer Base is dwindling. Eventually, the only consumers left will be Minimum wage workers or foriegners that make less than minimum wages. The govt. figures on employment are false. They do not include the dis-enfranchised workers that have expended their unemployment benefits and are unable to find work. They also claim full employment without discerning between minimum wages and "living" wages. No-one in this country can support themselves on minimum wages let alone a family. The booming economy as portrayed by the Bush regime is a reflection of how the wealthy have progressed under Bush-Cheney. Without having the facts right in front of me (ViRedd), I dont have the percentages of wealth gain by the top 10 percent, But it has been significant, if not abhorrent. To have a wealthy capitalist deriding my posts is enough to make one angry if not defiant. Of course the world is going well for them. Circumstance has placed us where we are. To look down on me and my position in the society says it all, To them, we are all a bunch of lazy arseholes that had not enough ambition to rise above the frey. People are different and they have different upbringings and situations, so there is bound to be a difference in income potentials. The thing that riles me is the insensitivity and their idea that they are oracles. Hey I'm not rich and I'm not crying about it. I just see a spade as being a spade!

I think what pisses me off most about this administration is how much they (the republicans) have done for the corporations.
Sweetheart deals for the drug companies
(on the Medicare bill it was written in that the government can not negotiate the prices)
Medical Insurance rates have skyrocketed out of control.
(more than 60% of people in the United States are uninsured.) {Currently the only answer would be Socialized medicine.}
Subsidies for the Oil Companies
(in a time that they showed record profits.)
Changing the rules on Bankruptcy .
(this creates more poverty because there is now way out since Reagan’s deregulation has made it to where credit companies can basically name the interest they want to charge.)
The worse part is that the Government didn’t even try to hide it. Yet they are more interested in covering up for a pedophile senator and the cronies that knew about and allowed the behavior.
All I can see is that there is a shit load of corruption. And corruption always starts at the top.
If we as a nation are going to survive in a capitalistic society we need to be just a bit xenophobic and tell companies that want to do business in the United States , that they have to pay enough tariffs to do business here or quit outsourcing.
What Reagan has created with deregulation is just the same thing that was happening when the government went after Standard Oil back 1911. Which was unfair business practices.
http://www.ripon.edu/Faculty/bowenj/antitrust/stdoilnj.htm

Yes there is a lot of corruption, and it starts at the top. I'm up for a rebellion but only so long as I get to be ruler afterwards. I'm not going to argue with you because I agree with everything you've said. We do need to be a better society, and maybe incorporating some socialistic ideals may be the way forward. Unfortunately the socialist ideal is a very controlling one, in it's attempt to bring equality to all men it would only succeed in chaining us to the poverty we aspire to be free from. Capitalism opens the door to individual growth, gives you a reason to live.

Be truthful skunk, The only way you would succeed in a capitalistic way is to be a criminal ie. grow MJ for sale or sell MJ for profit. The powers that be will not let the poor get too high up on the economic scale as a general rule. There are exceptions, but very rare. If your parents did not have power and wealth, your odds of making it legitimately are very slim! I've had businesses (3) that I worked (owned) 12-18 hours a day and failed because of under-capitalization. The old addage "it takes money to make money" is extremely true!

Yes, that is most likely the only way I'll succeed; but this path is one that I chose. I could have chosen to go to school, take exams, then choose a career, instead I chose excitement and the freedom to be my own man. My personal feelings do not matter when the rest of society is simply getting on with it. The rest of us too have chosen our own paths in life and we still continue to do so, socialism would take this away. You would be obligated to work in a specific area even if you felt you would be best served elsewhere. Society would be slowly suffocated, repressed.

I chose my own path, such is the wonder of capitalism. Competition is healthy, when you win once you just want to keep on winning.

It looks as though you have some confusion as to what Socialism is and what Communism is.
Socialism is a economic system for the distribution of goods and services, where as Communism is a political system where the state controls everything.
Do you not see what has happened over the past few years?
With the passage of the Patriot Act, we have come one step closer to Communism and a farther step away from Socialism.
China at this point is practicing more Socialism and less communism.
The State no longer controls the rice crops, they privatized farming and now the rice farmers have more money than they have ever had.
Communism leaves no room for personal wealth, yet you see that China has created personal wealth through partially embracing capitalism.
Socialism embraces the best of both worlds. Socialism brings the stability to the working class by eliminating the need to worry about such things as medical insurance (because you would already have it)
Now there are many models of socialism, some better than others.
The English/Canadian Model are by far the worse example of socialism.
The Dutch Model is one of the best. The Dutch Model has a multi-tiered system where those who make under the equivalent of $24,000 a year pay nothing (this is the poverty level) and the more someone makes the more they pay into the system.

Many confuse Communism with Socialism, Socialism does not call for the abolition of religion, Communism does. Socialism allows for the accumulation of personal wealth, Communism does not. Socialism allows for capitalism, Communism does not.
Like I have said many times, in order to compete in a global economy we have to embrace or at the very least swallow some parts of socialism. What Karl Marx written was more communistic that Socialistic.

The best system would be a liberal one. I thought Holland was a Liberal country? I'm all for a liberal system but that would mean open borders, open everything.

I think also that your thinking of a governmental form of communism whereas the govt tells individuals what they can and can't do. Socialism is a wealth distribution system that allows individuals to make all they want, the distribution part comes with taxation on the top earners thereby ensuring that the bottom earners would have a decent life. Yes the more you make, the more you pay, but when you figure that 40% of a million dollars(supposing you were in the 60% tax bracket) would still leave you 400,000 Bucks, thats significantly more than any bottom earner would make. The minimum wage would be set to a liveable level, say 12 bucks an hour and indexed to the cost of living. There would be free to all health care paid by the tax system, the only ones really against this are the wealthiest people whom would pay the lions share of the taxes. Its more like Britons system or Hollands. As the U.S. stands now, the lowest 85% of the people pay the highest tax burden. I see the 24,000 no tax income as realistic in America. We could wack the drug industry and eleminate The Robber Barron med. Insurance industry all together, they are among the largest crooks in the country!

skunkushybrid said:

Yes, that is most likely the only way I'll succeed; but this path is one that I chose. I could have chosen to go to school, take exams, then choose a career, instead I chose excitement and the freedom to be my own man. My personal feelings do not matter when the rest of society is simply getting on with it. The rest of us too have chosen our own paths in life and we still continue to do so, socialism would take this away. You would be obligated to work in a specific area even if you felt you would be best served elsewhere. Society would be slowly suffocated, repressed.

I chose my own path, such is the wonder of capitalism. Competition is healthy, when you win once you just want to keep on winning.

Click to expand...

Making it simple for Dankdude and Med:

The Road to Serfdom

You were doing all right in your fantasy land untill you started with the dictator and slave state bullshit. Give some of us more credit than that. We've seen the hitler thing and to be honest the Bush-Cheney Govt. resembles the beginning stages of dictatorship more than anything I've seen since Hitler. They throw Fear at us daily trying to force their repressive wiretaps and internal spy programs. The Patriot act was a wicked first step in removing our freedoms, I hope we can get them out before they achieve total control!

"We've seen the hitler thing and to be honest the Bush-Cheney Govt. resembles the beginning stages of dictatorship more than anything I've seen since Hitler."

Have you seen any of the films coming out of North Korea? Is that regiem Communist or is it Nazi? And what of Cuba and Castro? Is that fascism or is it communism? What is the lifestyle of the "average" person like in each of these two countries?

In North Korea, all but the party members and the military are starving to death. The top leaders live like royalty.

In Cuba, poverty is rampant. In spite of free government education, free medical, and guaranteed full employment, they are dirt poor. Again, like the rulers of North Korea, the ruling class in Cuba live like royalty.

The basis of their systems are the basis of your desired system as well ... the differences are only a matter of degrees.

Vi

ViRedd said:

Making it simple for Dankdude and Med:

The Road to Serfdom

Click to expand...

Again you are confusing Communism with Socialism, besides surfdom is what we have as a system with today's form of capitalism. Work for a coproration long enough and you would figure it out.

ViRedd said:

"We've seen the hitler thing and to be honest the Bush-Cheney Govt. resembles the beginning stages of dictatorship more than anything I've seen since Hitler."

Have you seen any of the films coming out of North Korea? Is that regiem Communist or is it Nazi? And what of Cuba and Castro? Is that fascism or is it communism? What is the lifestyle of the "average" person like in each of these two countries?

In North Korea, all but the party members and the military are starving to death. The top leaders live like royalty.

In Cuba, poverty is rampant. In spite of free government education, free medical, and guaranteed full employment, they are dirt poor. Again, like the rulers of North Korea, the ruling class in Cuba live like royalty.

The basis of their systems are the basis of your desired system as well ... the differences are only a matter of degrees.

Vi

Click to expand...

From what you describe, it seems like the long range plan of the Bush-Cheney regime. The rich get richer and the poor poorer. The country is run by the military with a dictator at the top. the leaders live like royalty! Check this: "it sure would be easier if this was a dictatorship" G.W.Bush!

LOL. That cartoon sums up a lot of peoples feelings about the Bush('s) administration.

I can see that you two, med and vi', are loving this thread. neither of you are going to change the other's mind yet you still persist in trying to goad each other. All these statistics and such can't be produced solely from the head, it takes research, at least a little. Me, I know that you are both right, correct rather (gotta be careful what I say on this thread). A comprimise of med' and vi' would be a liberal.

Liberal: the very word means FREE. Isn't that what we all seek?

Free, absolutely skunk. In your country, no-one dies from lack of medical attention. In this country (the richest on the planet) millions have no medical coverage. The Bush-Cheney regime is trying to take all safety nets away from the people. Their prescription drug plan was a huge giveaway to the pharmaceutical giants, and so confusing to the elderly to whom it was designed for, that more than half still have not signed up. They designed it so people living on Social Security (which they also want to destroy), 500.00-1200.00 a month had a loophole whereas they actually paid more than they had before. If you live in absolute poverty and can figure out the plan, then it might help, but the majority of seniors get the shaft, while Big Pharma walks with Billions. The Bush-Cheny Regime has set this country back 50+years and instituted more domestic spying than ever before. Even G.W.s Dad privately says his son is on the wrong track, and he was certainly no libertarian. The real deal in the White House will make Nixons scandal look like Mary Poppins! This is the most corrupt presidency that I personally have ever seen since I've been alive, and I watched with horrer the Nixon White House! There might have been some as bad, but none of them wanted to thrash our constitution like Bush-Cheney. None of them isolated us from most of the world and thumbed their noses at the rest, Like France and Germany, our allys, We still have troops in Germany for heavens sake, yet He (G.W.) told Schroeder "your either with us or against us", what an arrogant ass! The sooner we bring this criminal (G.W.) to justice the better. I adamately claim this president to be a traitor to the American people and Congress and when the gutless Democrats take over congress, I hope they find some fortitude and start a prosecutorial process that will slam the door on would be Dictators like G.W.Bush! Just my opinion!

I really tried not to get involved in this thread for the reason that it makes no real sense to me. To argue over middle-left and middle-right is silly, as you both wouldn't notice the difference were one or the other voted into power. Statistics are also unreliable as they are wrought with inconsistencies and biased opinion. The world is the way it is, I quite like it apart from the control aspect, and all the bullshit.

I'll never be happy with anybody that's in power simply because I know that it should be me sitting there. I'd give iraq back to saddam then let him deal with iran while I went to work beating the shit out of N. Korea. I never imagined that i would ever feel threatened by nuclear war, I though we had the security of the world pretty tight. We need to take care of Iran and N. Korea now before things go too far. They are a threat, a thousand times worse than Iraq, why are we sitting on our arses saying that a slap on the wrist should suffice.

Hope your plants are doing well med', yours too vi'.

OK Med, the country is fucked!

Let's all join the rest of the population in constructing make-shift rafts and tying innertubes together in an attempt to flee to Cuba, that Utopian Paradise offering free medical, free schools, 100% employment and luxury living for all. Oh, I forgot, Cuba's running out of room due to all of the Mexicans flooding into their country.


You're a sick man, Med. *lol*


Vi

I hope not, the medical system would let me die!

These are the figures of WORKING medically uninsured in the US.


Who are the medically uninsured in the United States?

Employee Benefit Research Institute, Washington, D.C.

The Employee Benefit Research Institute (EBRI) analysis of the March 1993 Current Population Survey revealed that 38.9 million Americans had no private or public health insurance during 1992. This number was up some 2.3 million over that for 1991, an increase larger than was experienced from 1989 through 1991. The proportion of the total population without such insurance also steadily increased, rising from 14.3 percent in 1989 to 15.4 percent in 1992. In 1992, 38.5 million nonelderly Americans, or 17.4 percent of those under age 65, had no health insurance, up 4.1 million since 1989. A primary reason for the rising number of the nonelderly uninsureds was a decline in health coverage among individuals (and their families) working for small firms. Among the total U.S. population, close to 59 percent received employment-based coverage. Of the remainder, Medicare accounted for just over 13 percent of the coverage, Medicaid for just over 11 percent and individually purchased private sources other than an employer or union for almost 12 percent. The New England region had the lowest proportion of medically uninsureds (almost 12 percent) and the West South Central the highest (over 25 percent). By state, Hawaii and Connecticut reported the lowest percentage of medically uninsureds, whereas Nevada, Oklahoma, Louisiana and Texas reported the highest proportions in 1992.


A State by state analysis of Medically Uninsured.

The Census report found that the percentage of uninsured residents grew in 18 states. Those states and their percentages of uninsured residents are: Colorado, 15.3 percent
Idaho, 16.4 percent
Indiana, 12 percent
Maryland, 12 percent
Michigan, 10.4 percent
Mississippi, 15.6 percent
Missouri, 10.4 percent
Nevada, 17.5 percent
New Hampshire, 9.2 percent
New Jersey, 13.1 percent
North Carolina, 14.9 percent
Oregon, 13.3 percent
Pennsylvania, 9.7 percent
Rhode Island, 8.3 percent
Texas, 24.1 percent
Vermont, 9.6 percent
Virginia, 12 percent
Wisconsin, 8.4 percent

These are just the worst offenders.

But Like before over at the Old CW Vi, when provided with facts, you either choose to ignore them or you impugn the point of view of the poster.

We will never escape Taxes, the very least the government can do is allocate the money collected to Benefit the people.

And you are back to impugning the view point of the poster again, without the added power of modding the forum.

How much is health insurance in the U.S.? Over here it is quite cheap, and we have the NHS. i'd imagine that in your country with health insurance being a necessity that it would be quite cheap.

I'll tell you something that I have learned from this site apart from the obvious of course, and that is how different our two nations really are, not just the laws but in general too. weird, but in a nice way.

Cheers Rollitup, before this site I never envisaged talking to people across continents. I'd done it before on my chess site, but the conversations never lasted very long; and to be honest I reckon I'd have a void in my life if this site were to ever disappear.