Grow: The next generation. Early Misty and Master Kush!

Much to report this morning. I transplanted MK1, MK2 and EM1 to 2 gallon pots on Friday (7/20). EM2 was transplanted to a 3 gallon pot, as I didn't have another 2 gallon. On Saturday morning (7/21), on examining the plants, I noticed that EM2 appeared to be showing its sex! On closer examination of all 4 plants, I confirmed they were beginning to flower! So, after thinking about it, I think I figured out what happened. To recap, I started these seedling with about 10 hours natural sunlight and 8 hours CFL lighting. I did this with my last grow without a problem. I followed this routine for about 12 days. Then I upgraded to my 400w MH and used this to complete the 18 hours of light. Well, thinking about it, I accidentally induced flowering. My plants were being subjected to 3 light phases, instead of 2. They were getting 10 hours of natural light, 8 hours of white light and 6 hours of darkness. This routine somehow resulted in early flowering. Even at this young age.

So, now the results. Of the 4 plants, 3 are female!! Woohooo! EM2, the newcomer of the lot and only about 4.5" tall, clearly showed its balls! You can clearly see in the first 2 pics. The other 3 plants had bud sites starting to form and these range in height from 6" to 8". Immediately, I removed and destroyed the male. The 3 fems, I hope to revert back to the vegging stage until they get bigger to provide clones. I started yesterday by leaving them under the MH for the full 18 hours and I plan to do this for the next couple weeks and forget about the natural sun. At least during veg.

I'm not sure if the pics give enough detail but I welcome any thoughts on putting these girls back into veg and how successful I will be.

A couple other pics of the confirmed girls.

Congrats on the girls, thats always good news. Despite the yellowing, your girls are lookin happy. Especially that first one, looks like its trying to fly or something. Anyway, you said your shooting for 1LB. I guess anythings possible right. Nice grow. JB

good job, only one male is always a plus!!!

i don't think they'll have a problem going back into veg especially since they've been recieving the 18 hours of light all along (though be-it in those three stages)

day 22, that's only about three weeks into the grow and you've already sexed 'em... that ain't too shabby i must say!

they look hungy for some nitrogen though...

Fantastic and congrats! You have triplets! It looks like you have things underway and on to a good grow. Im trying to keep up with you and I think Im losing the race. Your ladies look better than mine i have to admit, but then again this is my first grow, so I am hoping ill learn from you and see how your goes.

Thanks for the words of support, you guys. Much appreciated.

Lumber, I agree they look like they need some N. I did water earlier last week with FF Grow Big for this very reason, even though I had not planned on introducing nutes this early. The plants didn't take to it very well. I noticed some of the lower leaves on 2 of the plants took on the "claw-like" appearance and one even had the tips a little burnt. I backed off on the nuted and watered last night with 1 gal plain unchlorinated tap water and 1/4 tsp Superthrive. This morning they looked like they grew about 2" overnight. The lowest leaves continue to yellow and I expect them to drop off the next few days. I'm not too worried about that, as I think the plants were diverting they stored nutes to flowering and forming bud sites, instead of focusing on more overall plant growth. It's natural for the lowest leaves to yellow and die off as a plant matures anyway.

Looking back at my last grow, another difference in this one is that I am not introducing CO2. I used the homemade yeast/sugar/water method last grow but I am skeptical on how much good that actually did. I'm not even bothering this time with it.

One more note - my temps in the growbox continue to be in the high 80s F low 90s. I have 2 fans blowing into the box - one stationary aimed right below the reflector and the other stationary (oscillating capable) just at plant height. The light is roughly about 12" above the plants' tops. They seem to be doing ok with the heat. Remember they were partially raised outdoor, where it averages here in Florida about 92F in the summer. I do still plan on addressing the venting issue but they are comfortable for now.

Cid, I read up on your grow and dude, I don't think your grow is impressive! I don't think you have anything to be worried about. For a first grow, it's obvious you planned well and read up on how to grow. I will be following your grow closely. Good luck!

Mid-week update: The 3 girls have now been under only the MH (no more natural sunlight) for 4 straight days, following the 18-6 schedule. I measured them again this morning and as the pics show, the 2 MKs are about 10" and the EM is about 9". I watered them on Monday and again this morning, with 1/4 tsp Superthrive with 1 gallon water. PH of water was about 6.8. Tomorrow, Fri, will be 1 week since they were transplanted into new MG organic soil mixed with perlite and vermiculite (5-1-1 ratio). I will wait another week before reintroducing nutes. The yellowing at the bottom leaves doesn't seem to have spread and it appears new growth is occuring.

I am somewhat concerned by the uppermost leaves, which seem a little thin and "closed" (not fan-like). It could be that these leaves were the beginnings of the bud sites, I'm not sure.

Any feedback or recommendations is welcomed.

On a different note, I purchased some additional equipment as I continue to complete my growbox. Yesterday I purchased a 400w HPS system, instead of a conversion bulb for the MH system I currently have. This will allow me to continue vegging the moms under the MH. I could have used my CFLs to keep the moms under but a good conversion bulb would have run me about $90 plus S&H and I paid $101 for the used HPS system. Eventually I will replace the bulbs in both systems but for now, they will suffice.

I also picked up a used 4" Elicent fan to improve my ventilation (see pic below). These fans run about $175 brand new and I picked it up used for $89, which includes s&h. A pretty good deal, I think. It's 152 CFMs and rated at 54 dBA, so it should be pretty quiet. I plan on running ducting from the fan through my ceiling into the roof. I still need to purchase a backdraft damper to prevent the hot ceiling air from back-flowing into my growbox and closet. That should run me under $10. If the exhaust fan still doesn't do the job, then the final step in completing my growbox will be to run ducting from the A/C vent into the box. There is a A/C vent about 4' away.

The mfg's description of the fan is below.

Continental AXC in-line centrifugal duct fans are the ideal air movers for residential, commercial, and industrial applications. The quiet and efficient airfoil impeller is capable of developing significant pressure, and the in-line configuration simplifies installation. The unique motor design, combined with high-quality materials and workmanship, results in a truly versatile fan.


Design Features

AXC fan speed is infinitely variable to the max R.P.M. with the addition of a solid-state speed control.
AXC fans are capable of handling air up to 60?C/140?F, and are suitable for dust and fumes.
AXC fans are simple to install.
AXC fans are designed to be maintenance free for most applications, and will provide many years of service.
AXC fans are designed to handle long duct runs.
AXC fans have automatic reset, thermal overload protection.
AXC fans attach easily to attic joists and use the exclusive Continental mounting bracket.
AXC exhaust capacities are two to four times greater than typical, in-ceiling exhaust fans.
Construction Features

Heavy-gauge, spun-steel housing with baked epoxy finish inside and outside for superior corrosion protection!!!!
Backward curved airfoil blades which greatly reduce operating noise levels, develop ample static pressure, and will not stall and overload the motor at low airflow. The wide blade spacing is ideal for handling particulate dust.
Durable external rotor motor has a stationary shaft while the motor housing rotates. This feature results in improved motor cooling and extends the fan's temperature capability to 60?C/140?F.
Ball bearing motors are perminatly lubricated for maintenance-free operation.

it appears your babies are a little yellow, i don't have my glasses on, but from what i can see, it appears to be a lack of nitrogen. also, it looks as if you're waiting too long in between waterings....

i'd love for bg to take a look, i am near blind without my specs...

am i correct in what i see? the tops are kinda pale and yellow, and you have yellow leaves at the bottome, yellowing from the outer leaf inwards?

kp

Thanks for stopping by KP. The lowest leaves are yellowing and I've already lost the lowest set. The upper leaves are green, just not that dark lush-looking green. They are somewhat paleish looking. I thought the same thing about lack of N, so last week (before transplanting) I introduced some FF Grow Big in 1/4 recommended strength. I gave them this 2 consecutve feedings and they didn't seem to like that. The very tips of the bottom leaves actually got a little burnt. So I backed off them and haven't given them any since, and especially not after transplanting into new soil.

One theory I have is that the plants went into flowering prematurely and are using up all stored nutes to build the bud sites. Maybe I should reintroduce nutes. What do you think?

Hiya hearme

Firstly many grats on the 3 ladies! Well lucky to get 3 out of 4.

I haven't read your whole grow thread, but I have the last page or so and I have a few comments on progress so far.

Are you sure they went into flowering? Pre-flowers can show in veg growth 18/6, without switching to 12/12.

Regarding your last pictures, the top leaves are curling up and I think I read somewhere that your temperatures were high - that's what's causing those curled up cup like top leaves. Good to see you're getting a fan ready to install, ideally you need to get those temps down to more manageable levels - 70-80F.

If you've just repotted into fresh soil, you shouldn't feed anything for another 3-4 weeks - resist! The yellowing leaves should sort themselves out in due course and the new soil should stop it spreading further up the plant.

I also feel the pots you've repotted into are too large for the plant sizes.

As I'm sure you know, rootsize is directly proportional to yield size and to maximise that you need to pot up at regular intervals in vegetative growth - for two reasons. 1) To minimise the amount of feeding you have to do yourself, each time you repot you reset the plant into a fresh set of nutrients to feed on. 2) So you force the rootball to develop and to continue growing. Each time you repot, the rootball has more room to spread out into.

For some reason, the practise of potting up in gradually larger pots largely seems to be ignored on this site, with people going from small pots to large pots and thats it.

I've started using 0.5L pots to start them off in, 2 or 3 weeks after that, 1L pots, 2 or 3 weeks after that 2L pots, then either 3.5L or 6.5L depending on the plant for flowering. That's 4 repots before the plant gets to start flowering. Each time the rootball forms in its pot and when you repot it the roots CONTINUE to grow around the next pot and so on. They don't all retract and start growing round the new pot - they continue growing. So it's not hard to see how in 4 repots the size of the roots will be anything from 2 to 4 times the size of rootballs started out in a small pot and repotted into its final large pot once.

The larger the rootball, the more moisture and nutrients it can intake and the larger the final yield will be.

Ideally the plant should be in it's final pot about 1 week before you intend to switch to 12/12, as this will give the roots time to root out the new pot (show at the drain holes) before going into flowering. Root growth slows down significantly after about the second or third week in flowering, and therefore the plant still has room and nutrients for 2-4 weeks after its final repot before you need to start feeding - and this is about the time you need to switch to bloom nutrients from veg ones.

hearmenow said:

One theory I have is that the plants went into flowering prematurely and are using up all stored nutes to build the bud sites. Maybe I should reintroduce nutes. What do you think?

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That's unlikely to be honest. Flowering doesn't really use much Nitrogen, it uses primarily Potassium and Phosphorus for floral and bud growth. In fact, ideally, you want the least amount of N around in the first two to three weeks of flowering because high N residuals can cause and promote stretching. This is quite hard to achieve in reality, as usually you've just repotted before switching to flowering and therefore the compost still has fair amounts of N around. It's either that or watch all the leaves turn yellow in the first 2 - 3 weeks of flowering!

More likely that the plant has simply used up all the residual N reserves in the compost and it was time to repot anyway. Soil/compost only really has 3-4 weeks of nutrient reserves and plain waterings leach Nitrogen easily out of the soil if you're not using something like Vermiculite (very good at retaining moisture and nutrients) and Perlite which absorb moisture and nutrients and release them slowly over time when needed. I use about 0.5 parts each of Verm and Perlite in my soil mix. 9 parts compost to 1 part Verm/Perlite.

If you're not using soil amendments like that, it's likely whatever N was left was simply leached away. A repot should fix the N def, although I have doubts over the quality of the Organic soil you're using.

Baby, thanks for the advice. I never really considered the pros and cons of repotting to a pot too big. I just figured the plant would grow into whatever size pot! I started in 2"x2" peat moss disks and transplanted to 5", then into the 2 galloners. I will definitely make note of you recommendation going foward.

As far as preflowering, I suppose it's possible but I was quite surprised by how clearly the male had showed it's sex. I've reattached the pic so you can see. This was on a 4" plant! Now we all know the males show sex first and I the fems don't have any well-formed bud sites but I do see the clusters of leaves that usually precede the buds. Since putting into 18/6 MH, I don't see any further bud formation, so hopefully they have reverted to vegging.

I think you might be right on the heat affecting the leaves. Even though I have 2 fans blowing into the grow area and a 50CFM computer fan exhausting heat, by evening the temp in well into the 90s. I think the 15' of ducting I have attached to the weak exhaust fan may have something to do with it!

Thanks again for the feedback. Hopefully next week this time, I'll be posting that my temp is now a very comfortable 75F.

I am using perlite and vermiculite with MG organic soil in a 5-1-1 ratio. Once I am able to get some nice big clones, my intention is to try the hempie bucket method and eschew soil altogether, at least one a test basis. My first dabbling in hydro. Poor man's version, anyway. Thanks again.

babygro said:

That's unlikely to be honest. Flowering doesn't really use much Nitrogen, it uses primarily Potassium and Phosphorus for floral and bud growth. In fact, ideally, you want the least amount of N around in the first two to three weeks of flowering because high N residuals can cause and promote stretching. This is quite hard to achieve in reality, as usually you've just repotted before switching to flowering and therefore the compost still has fair amounts of N around. It's either that or watch all the leaves turn yellow in the first 2 - 3 weeks of flowering!

More likely that the plant has simply used up all the residual N reserves in the compost and it was time to repot anyway. Soil/compost only really has 3-4 weeks of nutrient reserves and plain waterings leach Nitrogen easily out of the soil if you're not using something like Vermiculite (very good at retaining moisture and nutrients) and Perlite which absorb moisture and nutrients and release them slowly over time when needed. I use about 0.5 parts each of Verm and Perlite in my soil mix. 9 parts compost to 1 part Verm/Perlite.

If you're not using soil amendments like that, it's likely whatever N was left was simply leached away. A repot should fix the N def, although I have doubts over the quality of the Organic soil you're using.

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Are u 12/12 them or 18/6? ThX!

TM, I am on 18/6.

Update time: I watered the girls on Saturday with 1 gallon water with 1/4 tsp Superthrive and the girls are doing really really well. They are clearly out of flowering and back into vegging. The slight yellowing I was noticing is gone and now the leaves are that nice rich green. Also, the plants are really getting nice and bushy. The fan leaves on both strains are huge, compared to my last grow. I measured the plants again and they have grown about 3" since last week. The tallest is about 14" now. I took updated pics but left my camera home - I'll provide updated pics tomorrow.

My plan is to continue vegging this week and once they reach about 16"-18", I will top and use the cuttings as clones. I'll let the clones vegg until they are well established and are about 6", then I plan on putting them into flowering. I don't have my HPS yet and I'm expecting it by the end of the week, so the timing is about right.

In summary, things are going great. In fact, I am preferring my 100% indoor grow, compared to my last indoor/outdoor grow. So much less stress trying to move plants in and out without being discovered. Not to mention the bugs. Tomorrow I will post pics.

how many nodes down do you plan on topping your plants to?.. or how short are you going to top them to? (like done to 10 in. or a ft?)

just curious

Hey Lumb. I am looking for a minimum of 3" clones and ideally, 6". I'll vegg them until they are 6"-8" and then flower. That should give me 12"-18" plants at harvest. I want to leave my moms with 6 nodes. All 3 of my moms already have 6 nodes, so I am just letting them get taller so they give me taller clones and recuperate more quickly.

Pics, as promised. Looking really bushy now. I plan on taking clones by week's end.