Hamas offensive against Israel

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Did anybody think this kind of thing would not happen if Israel continued to press its war against Hamas in Gaza?


WASHINGTON, April 3 (Reuters) - Celebrity chef Jose Andres told Reuters in an emotional interview on Wednesday that an Israeli attack that killed seven of his food aid workers in Gaza had targeted them "systematically, car by car."
Speaking via video, Andres said the World Central Kitchen (WCK) charity group he founded had clear communication with the Israeli military, which he said knew his aid workers' movements.
"This was not just a bad luck situation where ‘oops’ we dropped the bomb in the wrong place," Andres said.

"They were targeting us in a deconflicting zone, in an area controlled by IDF. They knowing that it was our teams moving on that road ... with three cars," he said.
The aid workers were killed when their convoy was hit shortly after they oversaw the unloading of 100 tons of food brought to Gaza by sea. Israel's military expressed "severe sorrow" over the incident and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it unintentional.


In response, the head of Israel's Defense Force admitted fault and apologized, Netanyahu also admitted that "mistakes were made" :roll:

But really, we all knew this was coming. We all knew that Israel was not acting responsibly to ensure it waged war against its enemies and not civilians.
Israel has a right to defend itself. Hamas did attack Israel. I'm pretty sure people have stopped commenting in this thread because there is not much more one can say other than what Biden has been saying. Israel is responsible for the safety of civilians in the areas where it is engaging in war against its enemies. As is Hamas, they are at fault. Too. But the US is providing support to Israel, so, we have leverage there. Or we should. Maybe its time to apply some (more?) of that.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Fogdog said:
Did anybody think this kind of thing would not happen if Israel continued to press its war against Hamas in Gaza?


WASHINGTON, April 3 (Reuters) - Celebrity chef Jose Andres told Reuters in an emotional interview on Wednesday that an Israeli attack that killed seven of his food aid workers in Gaza had targeted them "systematically, car by car."
Speaking via video, Andres said the World Central Kitchen (WCK) charity group he founded had clear communication with the Israeli military, which he said knew his aid workers' movements.
"This was not just a bad luck situation where ‘oops’ we dropped the bomb in the wrong place," Andres said.

"They were targeting us in a deconflicting zone, in an area controlled by IDF. They knowing that it was our teams moving on that road ... with three cars," he said.
The aid workers were killed when their convoy was hit shortly after they oversaw the unloading of 100 tons of food brought to Gaza by sea. Israel's military expressed "severe sorrow" over the incident and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it unintentional.


In response, the head of Israel's Defense Force admitted fault and apologized, Netanyahu also admitted that "mistakes were made" :roll:

But really, we all knew this was coming. We all knew that Israel was not acting responsibly to ensure it waged war against its enemies and not civilians.
Israel has a right to defend itself. Hamas did attack Israel. I'm pretty sure people have stopped commenting in this thread because there is not much more one can say other than what Biden has been saying. Israel is responsible for the safety of civilians in the areas where it is engaging in war against its enemies. As is Hamas, they are at fault. Too. But the US is providing support to Israel, so, we have leverage there. Or we should. Maybe its time to apply some (more?) of that.
Click to expand...
severe sorrow — !

1712179860822.jpeg
 
CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
But really, we all knew this was coming. We all knew that Israel was not acting responsibly to ensure it waged war against its enemies and not civilians.
Israel has a right to defend itself. Hamas did attack Israel. I'm pretty sure people have stopped commenting in this thread because there is not much more one can say other than what Biden has been saying. Israel is responsible for the safety of civilians in the areas where it is engaging in war against its enemies. As is Hamas, they are at fault. Too. But the US is providing support to Israel, so, we have leverage there. Or we should. Maybe its time to apply some (more?) of that.
Click to expand...
This war is a difficult one to discuss, as pointing out that people in control of how this war is fought don't see the difference between enemy combatants and innocent civilians - comes across as piling on after what has happened. Not stating which specific group I'm referring to in that previous sentence is because it applies to both. The extremists have won. I hope all innocent prisoners are released ASAP and those causing all this terror are removed from this planet.

To be clear, fuck Hamas extremists - they are responsible for every single death that has occurred. Also, fuck those extremists in Israel' leadership that are also responsible for so many innocent civilian deaths in Gaza.



Imagine the response if any other country did this...

‘The machine did it coldly’: Israel used AI to identify 37,000 Hamas targets
Israeli intelligence sources reveal use of ‘Lavender’ system in Gaza war and claim permission given to kill civilians in pursuit of low-ranking militants

...

‘It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home’
The testimonies published by +972 and Local Call may explain how such a western military with such advanced capabilities, with weapons that can conduct highly surgical strikes, has conducted a war with such a vast human toll.
When it came to targeting low-ranking Hamas and PIJ suspects, they said, the preference was to attack when they were believed to be at home. “We were not interested in killing [Hamas] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” one said. “It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. The system is built to look for them in these situations.”

www.theguardian.com

‘The machine did it coldly’: Israel used AI to identify 37,000 Hamas targets

Israeli intelligence sources reveal use of ‘Lavender’ system in Gaza war and claim permission given to kill civilians in pursuit of low-ranking militants
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
CANON_Grow said:
This war is a difficult one to discuss, as pointing out that people in control of how this war is fought don't see the difference between enemy combatants and innocent civilians - comes across as piling on after what has happened. Not stating which specific group I'm referring to in that previous sentence is because it applies to both. The extremists have won. I hope all innocent prisoners are released ASAP and those causing all this terror are removed from this planet.

To be clear, fuck Hamas extremists - they are responsible for every single death that has occurred. Also, fuck those extremists in Israel' leadership that are also responsible for so many innocent civilian deaths in Gaza.



Imagine the response if any other country did this...

‘The machine did it coldly’: Israel used AI to identify 37,000 Hamas targets
Israeli intelligence sources reveal use of ‘Lavender’ system in Gaza war and claim permission given to kill civilians in pursuit of low-ranking militants

...

‘It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home’
The testimonies published by +972 and Local Call may explain how such a western military with such advanced capabilities, with weapons that can conduct highly surgical strikes, has conducted a war with such a vast human toll.
When it came to targeting low-ranking Hamas and PIJ suspects, they said, the preference was to attack when they were believed to be at home. “We were not interested in killing [Hamas] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” one said. “It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. The system is built to look for them in these situations.”

www.theguardian.com

‘The machine did it coldly’: Israel used AI to identify 37,000 Hamas targets

Israeli intelligence sources reveal use of ‘Lavender’ system in Gaza war and claim permission given to kill civilians in pursuit of low-ranking militants
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
War dehumanizes people and turns them into cold hearted killers. There is no other way to wage war.
 
C

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Did anybody think this kind of thing would not happen if Israel continued to press its war against Hamas in Gaza?


WASHINGTON, April 3 (Reuters) - Celebrity chef Jose Andres told Reuters in an emotional interview on Wednesday that an Israeli attack that killed seven of his food aid workers in Gaza had targeted them "systematically, car by car."
Speaking via video, Andres said the World Central Kitchen (WCK) charity group he founded had clear communication with the Israeli military, which he said knew his aid workers' movements.
"This was not just a bad luck situation where ‘oops’ we dropped the bomb in the wrong place," Andres said.

"They were targeting us in a deconflicting zone, in an area controlled by IDF. They knowing that it was our teams moving on that road ... with three cars," he said.
The aid workers were killed when their convoy was hit shortly after they oversaw the unloading of 100 tons of food brought to Gaza by sea. Israel's military expressed "severe sorrow" over the incident and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it unintentional.


In response, the head of Israel's Defense Force admitted fault and apologized, Netanyahu also admitted that "mistakes were made" :roll:

But really, we all knew this was coming. We all knew that Israel was not acting responsibly to ensure it waged war against its enemies and not civilians.
Israel has a right to defend itself. Hamas did attack Israel. I'm pretty sure people have stopped commenting in this thread because there is not much more one can say other than what Biden has been saying. Israel is responsible for the safety of civilians in the areas where it is engaging in war against its enemies. As is Hamas, they are at fault. Too. But the US is providing support to Israel, so, we have leverage there. Or we should. Maybe its time to apply some (more?) of that.
Click to expand...
I watched some of Chef Andres TV series w/his daughters,to see a man so full of life and spirit as I came to know him,despondent,crushed,that his friends volunteering for his noble charity org were killed is so sad. He is now distraught as an org. he poured his heart into has resulted in 8 people dead.If one vehicle was hit then fire held maybe a mistake was viable,but 3 vehicles clearly marked ,on a est. humanitarian route, w/prior heads up given to Israel?????? Israel just banged the last nail in the coffin of Int. opinion,Netanyahu needs to be sacked,this operation has set back Israel for decades,I've said before all this carnage for 1.5% (generous) of Gaza pop. that are combatants is atrocious,all this seeming carpet bombing and infrastructure destruction is for a state vs.state (near peer) war where destruction of industry is vital in a fight for survival,which is NOT the case here,I don't care what Israel says.
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
It shouldn't be too hard to find and arrest the people who pushed the buttons. If Israel want to prove this was an accident, they should produce the perpetrators.

I don't get the motive though. If they want to win, get back the hostages, or kill all Palestinians or w/e the point is atm, how does this help... what changed their mind after coordinating with them...

"U.N. Humanitarian and Reconstruction Coordinator for Gaza Sigrid Kaag met with the World Central Kitchen team in Gaza just hours before they were killed and was appalled by the attack, said Dujarric."

 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Israel fires two military personnel after concluding "mistaken identification" led to deadly strike on food aid workers

The Israeli military believed they were targeting Hamas operatives when they attacked and killed seven food aid workers in Gaza on Monday, according to an internal inquest that led to the dismissal of two officers.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said Friday that “those who approved the strike were convinced that they were targeting armed Hamas operatives,” calling the attack “a grave mistake stemming from a serious failure due to a mistaken identification.”
Seven aid workers – three Britons, a Palestinian, a US-Canadian dual citizen, an Australian and a Pole – were killed in Monday’s strikes, setting off fury in those countries and sparking even greater scrutiny of Israel’s conduct in Gaza since it launched its war against Hamas in October.
WCK and the heads of many Western nations have called for an independent, third party investigation into the strikes, but Israel has committed only to the internal inquiry released Friday.

 
CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
It shouldn't be too hard to find and arrest the people who pushed the buttons. If Israel want to prove this was an accident, they should produce the perpetrators.

I don't get the motive though. If they want to win, get back the hostages, or kill all Palestinians or w/e the point is atm, how does this help... what changed their mind after coordinating with them...

"U.N. Humanitarian and Reconstruction Coordinator for Gaza Sigrid Kaag met with the World Central Kitchen team in Gaza just hours before they were killed and was appalled by the attack, said Dujarric."

Click to expand...
I'll make some assumptions and would propose that the majority of those in the IDF have noble intentions of getting the hostages back and eliminating the threat that is Hamas, but it only takes a few extremists within the IDF to believe it's not a Hamas threat they are fighting, and are fighting for the territory that is Gaza. It's been a concern from the beginning that pushing up to Egypt' border would force a humanitarian crisis to the point that Egypt wouldn't really have a choice but to accept refugees. There have been reports on how Gaza can be developed after the war, minus a specific population (not saying that thought is approved by anything more than the extreme minority).

If I was an extremist within the IDF and wanted that land, I would be trying to discourage any aid from reaching anyone in Gaza as it lessens the pressure at the border. Now we see the report that seeing a gun, or anything resembling a weapon with those aid trucks - justification to push the button and take out those aid vehicles - and far less aid will be getting into Gaza for a while (I presume).

In real life I generally give people the benefit of doubt that when something that benefits them while hurting someone else is just a coincidence, until I can no longer ignore the reality that it is actually how they operate. All these unfortunate incidence that happen seem to benefit a specific few, almost like it is a once in a lifetime opportunity.

I am open to my thought process being flawed, and actually hope I am wrong.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
It shouldn't be too hard to find and arrest the people who pushed the buttons. If Israel want to prove this was an accident, they should produce the perpetrators.

I don't get the motive though. If they want to win, get back the hostages, or kill all Palestinians or w/e the point is atm, how does this help... what changed their mind after coordinating with them...

"U.N. Humanitarian and Reconstruction Coordinator for Gaza Sigrid Kaag met with the World Central Kitchen team in Gaza just hours before they were killed and was appalled by the attack, said Dujarric."

Click to expand...
I can guess at a motive, not saying I believe it. Israel intends that food aid should not get through and let this "mistake" happen. The people who pushed the button don't have to be malicious; poor training or bad procedures are all takes. I would prefer that the people in charge be the ones held more accountable than the ones who pushed the button or even the ones who gave the "go" signal. Seems to me that this was a failure of the system, not just a bad cog in the system. The people in charge don't care enough to put proper resources in place to ensure that kind of mistake could never happen. The "this is war, mistakes happen" excuse fails in my point of view.

I think it is Netanyahu's head that should roll.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Fogdog said:
I can guess at a motive, not saying I believe it. Israel intends that food aid should not get through and let this "mistake" happen. The people who pushed the button don't have to be malicious; poor training or bad procedures are all takes. I would prefer that the people in charge be the ones held more accountable than the ones who pushed the button or even the ones who gave the "go" signal. Seems to me that this was a failure of the system, not just a bad cog in the system. The people in charge don't care enough to put proper resources in place to ensure that kind of mistake could never happen. The "this is war, mistakes happen" excuse fails in my point of view.

I think it is Netanyahu's head that should roll.
Click to expand...
The flag-rank officers in the chain of command should also be at least drummed out.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
The flag-rank officers in the chain of command should also be at least drummed out.
Click to expand...
yep, which is why I said "held more accountable". Putting a person in charge of something, especially an urban battle filled with civilians and people trying to help civilians live through it all, it should mean more than occupying a seat and rubber stamping procedures. Generals and Colonels and whoever was wearing brass that put them in charge should also be held accountable. But the real failure is at the top. It might not be a failure in Bibi's mind but that's what rules and laws are all about. At some point even the man at the top of a government, ruled by laws and not men, should either do what he's required by law or be held accountable for not obeying the law.

We are facing the same problem in our own country. Something has gone haywire in this world, where leaders are acting outside the rule of law. Or maybe something has not gone haywire and elite powers are reacting to societal changes that bring rule of law to bear where it was not enforced before. IDK.

What I do know is that Hamas is a terrorist organization and the people of Israel have every right to expect their government to safeguard them and their country. Using that justification, Netanyahu is violating the very laws justifying that statement. What he's doing is a contradiction of the rules of law, war and human nature. He's making things worse and has to go. Not just as an act of accountability but in order to put leadership on notice that they are constrained to act within the framework of law and order.

There is some evidence that Netanyahu is not interested in ending this war because he will then get pushed out of office and then held accountable for corrupt acts. Which gets us back to my claim that the rule of law must prevail and Netanyahu must go. He must go for the sake of Israel's democracy.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Fogdog said:
yep, which is why I said "held more accountable". Putting a person in charge of something, especially an urban battle filled with civilians and people trying to help civilians live through it all, it should mean more than occupying a seat and rubber stamping procedures. Generals and Colonels and whoever was wearing brass that put them in charge should also be held accountable. But the real failure is at the top. It might not be a failure in Bibi's mind but that's what rules and laws are all about. At some point even the man at the top of a government, ruled by laws and not men, should either do what he's required by law or be held accountable for not obeying the law.

We are facing the same problem in our own country. Something has gone haywire in this world, where leaders are acting outside the rule of law. Or maybe something has not gone haywire and elite powers are reacting to societal changes that bring rule of law to bear where it was not enforced before. IDK.

What I do know is that Hamas is a terrorist organization and the people of Israel have every right to expect their government to safeguard them and their country. Using that justification, Netanyahu is violating the very laws justifying that statement. What he's doing is a contradiction of the rules of law, war and human nature. He's making things worse and has to go. Not just as an act of accountability but in order to put leadership on notice that they are constrained to act within the framework of law and order.

There is some evidence that Netanyahu is not interested in ending this war because he will then get pushed out of office and then held accountable for corrupt acts. Which gets us back to my claim that the rule of law must prevail and Netanyahu must go. He must go for the sake of Israel's democracy.
Click to expand...
I completely concur about the split between Hamas and the unaligned Palestinian civilians who are indiscriminately being inhoused, injured, slaughtered.

I worry that, just as here, Netanyahu is the tip of their own embedded fascist faction.

Oh well. To kill a snake, first cut off its head. Deal with the rest of it after performing step one.
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I just find it hard to believe it's policy (specifically to target aid workers in this manner). If any of such communication would come out they'll not only lose support but make new enemies. When the news came out about how the cars were clearly targeted and not hit by accident, the first logical assumption for me is misidentification, and not "Israel" is intentionally and blatantly murdering aid workers.

Fogdog said:
I think it is Netanyahu's head that should roll.
Click to expand...
That in any case yes.

Fogdog said:
The "this is war, mistakes happen" excuse fails in my point of view.
Click to expand...
There's no excuse, but regardless, even if it doesn't work as an excuse, can it still simply be the reason?

www.bbc.com

Israel-Gaza: Inside IDF's detailed briefing on aid convoy attack

Israel's military gives its account of how mistakes led to the killing of seven aid workers in Gaza.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Fogdog said:
Israel intends that food aid should not get through and let this "mistake" happen.
Click to expand...
That combined doesn't sound like a plausible motive to me.

CANON_Grow said:
I'll make some assumptions and would propose that the majority of those in the IDF have noble intentions of getting the hostages back and eliminating the threat that is Hamas, but it only takes a few within the IDF to believe it's not a Hamas threat they are fighting, and are fighting for the territory that is Gaza.
Click to expand...
Aside from specifically after the land there are definitely extremists, terrorists themselves basically, who would want revenge or already wanted to kill all Palestinians before this current war. I considered the same scenario with the bombings on the hospitals. In that case a pilot has more freedom in making intentional mistakes. In this case... see link above, it would mean multiple people in the chain would have to be that evil (and willing to sacrifice their career and potentially freedom).
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
The "this is war, mistakes happen" excuse fails in my point of view.
Click to expand...
There's no excuse, but regardless, even if it doesn't work as an excuse, can it still simply be the reason?
Click to expand...
Citing the "this is war, mistakes happen" trope as a reason and not an excuse. Yes, one may do that but it would be an after the fact analysis. I don't understand how that changes what needs doing at the top of the chain of leadership. The people at the top? They fucked up and I don't care what their reasons are. I already know who is responsible. Will they be held accountable?
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Sativied said:
…
That combined doesn't sound like a plausible motive to me.
Click to expand...
It does to me. A cornerstone of fascist practice is to identify/create an existential enemy of the nation. The defense against this usually internal threat (“They are among us! They’re doing unspeakable evil from within!”)
allows, indeed requires, the deployment of extreme measures expressly forbidden in a republic, notably the oxymoron of martial law.

Looking at the radicalized portion of the population here in US, I have no difficulty in imagining this being a deniably semi-official act with considerable popular support. The Enemy is almost always religiously other, and often by a nuance (I’m reminded of how abysmally the French treated their Huguenots) and often ethnically other as well. (The Germans tried to portray the Jews as racially other, which was not the case.)

So I’m seeing some of the old monsters that we all thought had been put to bed having new and terrible life being breathed into them.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I am convinced (bullshit convinced, not like any special info convinced) Bibi is trying to get us to break up with him (breaking our laws) so he can go dictator it up with Putin and the dickheads of doom running their other countries and troll it as being Biden's fault.
 
C

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
It shouldn't be too hard to find and arrest the people who pushed the buttons. If Israel want to prove this was an accident, they should produce the perpetrators.

I don't get the motive though. If they want to win, get back the hostages, or kill all Palestinians or w/e the point is atm, how does this help... what changed their mind after coordinating with them...

"U.N. Humanitarian and Reconstruction Coordinator for Gaza Sigrid Kaag met with the World Central Kitchen team in Gaza just hours before they were killed and was appalled by the attack, said Dujarric."

Click to expand...
Between the war in Ukraine where villages are completely annihilated(try to find one existing home w/a roof left) and Gaza(w/blocks upon blocks leveled),seems to me precision weaponry is over-hyped,I'm not seeing a big difference in collateral damage vs. combat 80 yrs. ago.
 
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