How to Read your Plants?

riddleme said:

No it is totally ok to mix them, understanding that both nutes and molasses lower the PH of the water. My point in mentioning it is how folks will have leaves turning yellow, post a pic and (because it is easy to see and very common) growers helping will say N deficiency you just need to add some N or veg nutes (if your in flower) when the solution is back off the molasses a bit. Without understanding this relationship and it's potential for problems it is hard for us to give the right answers. This also begs the notion that if your having a problem and asking for help give as much info as you can think of! Also falls into the Less is More catagory cause how many folks are guilty of thinkin that if molasses really does make the buds sweeter than more will make em even better, which of course is not true

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and of course more is not better, however finding out what a strain can handle is important to future grows. its really called trial and error as every pack of seed will yeild certain phenos that will respond better in diferrent environments and feed schedules. this process requires constant attention and diligence. practice makes perfect.

What would be a good dose of molasses per gallon? I have a Black Jack about 4 weeks into flower and have some unsulphured molasses on hand, using 5 gal bubble buckets.

riddleme said:

They only lose the leaves they are done with that are no longer needed for thier intended goals.

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please expound upon this.

BloodHoundsRule said:

What would be a good dose of molasses per gallon? I have a Black Jack about 4 weeks into flower and have some unsulphured molasses on hand, using 5 gal bubble buckets.

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rule of thumb for starters is 1 teaspoon per gallon of water

riddleme said:

rule of thumb for starters is 1 teaspoon per gallon of water

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Thanks riddleme. I'm adding some tomorrow. + reps and I'm subbed!

irieie said:

please expound upon this.

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I like to use human metaphors for describin this stuff so bear with me

If ya wanna change a muffler on your car you first jack the car up, then put jack stands under it, these are the steps we take for our intended goal which is to safely change a muffler.

When a homebuilder is raising the walls the first wall gets a brace added to hold it in place once it is leveled so that the second wall can be raised, the first wall now attached to the second wall is more stable and the brace can be removed.

Plants by nature adapt to thier enviroment, they do this with building blocks of vegetation, each of these blocks has an intended purpose. bit of simple botany here, leaves to us are leaves, but plants use leaves to perform various different functions, some leaves are "sun" leaves these tend to be closer to the top and are smaller, some leaves are "shade" leaves, these tend to be larger and usually more lower (and yes in the shade) some leaves are "sources" these are the worker drones what you hear in the forums referred to as the solar panels, they do most of the work. Some leaves are "sinks" their purpose is to store the processed nutes (sugars and carbs) for the plant to use later ( these are the leaves that yellow first when you switch to bloom nutes and lower the N, cause the plant wants N to function properly) it's kinda like a squirel stashing nuts for the winter. As the plant matures and gets taller and we raise the lights some of the leaves become unproductive so the plant will suck all the goodness out of em and drop em. This is completely normal and learning to read your plants is important so you can understand what the plant is doing, if you have a potential problem starting or if you are seeing a normal plant function. I totally cover this in my threads

How tall was she when you put her in flower? When is the best time to put them in flower? Do you go by how tall they are or how long they have been in veg for?

riddleme said:

Say hello to Aunt Martha, she is a 6 and half week into flower from clone GDP that was donated to me because after 8 weeks in a party cup she had only grown 3 inches. The new grower that gave her to me did not know what to do to fix her so he gave her to me,,,,,,,,,,,, and I fixed her

Her colas measure from 10 to 14 inches tall and 2 to 3 and half inches wide, she still has 3 more weeks to go. She lives in a mix of Calcined Clay and Peat (sunshine mix #4) under 2 400 watt CMH lights, she wants water every 2 days and she is only fed Jack's Professional General Purpose Peat Lite Special 20-10-20 which is designed for growing in peat (has elements normally found in soil, but not in peat) This nute is compatable with types 1,2,3,&4 water (meaning most) My tap water is a type 1. One of the bitches I have with some nutes is they do not share this kind of info and knowing it is well simply very cool She does not get any additives, no molasses, no superthrive, no bullshit (or bat shit, cow shit, fish shit, bird shit, ok you get my point).

She is a fine example of a happy plant

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embry928 said:

How tall was she when you put her in flower? When is the best time to put them in flower? Do you go by how tall they are or how long they have been in veg for?

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she was 11 inches tall when I flipped, the pic was last veg pic taken before flippin em and I could of let her go a bit longer but I had multiple strains going and the sativas had reached 15 inches when I flipped which was what I went by in this grow. I normally do not do 6 different strains but this grow is a breedin orgy. My previous grows here have been more about experiments & myth bustin.

I like to wait till they are mature and have a good root structure, which is all about readin your plants alternating nodes is the first sign of maturity followed by (if you wait long enough) pre-flowers. Once I get em in their final pots and start raining on em I can gauge root vigor by wicking times vs produced foliage. Rule of thumb says that the root structure will be as big as or slightly bigger than growth above ground. This coupled with increase in wicking vigor is what I'm looking for to decide when to flip.

These things I look for usually happen around 10 to 12 inches tall with my growing style, I usually flip at 14 inches (and the freaking sativas are 4 feet now LOL)

How long does the root system keep growing after it switches into flower? Say for example, I was wanting to wait to upcan into my final pots until I saw which were males and which were females. So, circa three to five days after the switch. Is it still worth it to upcan?

Thanks again i have been waiting until they were two feet tall and some how knew that was wrong.

riddleme said:

she was 11 inches tall when I flipped, the pic was last veg pic taken before flippin em and I could of let her go a bit longer but I had multiple strains going and the sativas had reached 15 inches when I flipped which was what I went by in this grow. I normally do not do 6 different strains but this grow is a breedin orgy. My previous grows here have been more about experiments & myth bustin.

I like to wait till they are mature and have a good root structure, which is all about readin your plants alternating nodes is the first sign of maturity followed by (if you wait long enough) pre-flowers. Once I get em in their final pots and start raining on em I can gauge root vigor by wicking times vs produced foliage. Rule of thumb says that the root structure will be as big as or slightly bigger than growth above ground. This coupled with increase in wicking vigor is what I'm looking for to decide when to flip.

These things I look for usually happen around 10 to 12 inches tall with my growing style, I usually flip at 14 inches (and the freaking sativas are 4 feet now LOL)

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how can you tell the difference between "healthy" or proper leaf necrosis in flower and necrosis due to a deficiency or other problem. during what stages of flower is this most pronounced and during late stages of flower how can you tell between burnt leaves and those dieing from healthy necrosis? do the lower fans die because of lack of light as the plant stretches and you move the light higher or are they being exhausted for thier stored nutrients and sugars? if you feed your plant what she needs when she needs it why would the plant ever need to kill off its fan leaves for their energy and nutrients? when does the plant stop photosynthesizing enough that it would not need the large fan leaves. this leaf necrosis starts for me after the first few weeks of flower and continues with the fans moving its way up from the bottom until harvest. is this normal and healthy? i always thought that a healthy plant stays green and leafy until the end. is the plant essential dieing while it flowers and it slowly cannibalizes itself to put its energy into its reproductive organs or flowers?

riddleme said:

I have posted this before but this is a good place to post it again. Plants require 16 known basic elements, knowing what they are and how they interact is key to reading potential problems that may occur



Very few nutes have all 16 elements in them and assume that some are comming from the water or the soil. A few that do contain all 16 are DynaGro and SmokeNGrow.

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Nickel and cobalt need to be added to the list.... both are in Dynagro and nickel is really warranted when breeding as is necessary for healthy mature seeds as well as the ability to use urea n to its full potential...

Nickel:
"In higher plants, Nickel is essential for activation of urease, an enzyme involved with nitrogen metabolism that is required to process urea. Without Nickel, toxic levels of urea accumulate, leading to the formation of necrotic lesions. In lower plants, Nickel activates several enzymes involved in a variety of processes, and can substitute for Zinc and Iron as a cofactor in some enzymes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_nutrition
" has recently been determined to be an essential trace element for plants by a group of scientists at the United States Department of Agriculture and the Agricultural Research Service . It is Required for the enzyme urease , which most plants use to break down urea into usable forms of nitrogen and is also necessary for iron absorption . Plants grown without a suitable supply of nickel will gradually reach a deficient level at the time of sexual maturity which will of-course effect any planned reproduction."

http://www.cannaversity.com/cannaversity/article.php?id=101


cobalt :

"Cobalt has been shown to alter the sex of plants like Cannabis sativa, Lemna acquinoclatis, and melon cultivars. It decreases the photoreversible absorbance of phytochrome in pea epicotyl and interferes with heme biosynthesis in fungi.
Low concentration of Co2+ in medium stimulates growth from simple algae to complex higher plants. Relatively higher concentrations are toxic. A similar relationship is seen with crop yield when the metal is used in the form of fertilizer, pre-seeding, and pre-sowing chemicals.
Toxic effect of cobalt on morphology include leaf fall, inhibition of greening, discolored veins, premature leaf closure, and reduced shoot weight.
Being a component of vitamin B12 and cobamide coenzyme, Co2+ helps in the fixation of molecular nitrogen in root nodules of leguminous plants. But in cyanobacteria, CoCl2 inhibits the formation of heterocyst, ammonia uptake, and nitrate reductase activity."

http://www.springerlink.com/content/b100780568265567/
Namaste'

subbedd.......

irieie said:

if you feed your plant what she needs when she needs it why would the plant ever need to kill off its fan leaves for their energy and nutrients?

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It won't.

irieie said:

this leaf necrosis starts for me after the first few weeks of flower and continues with the fans moving its way up from the bottom until harvest. is this normal and healthy? i always thought that a healthy plant stays green and leafy until the end. is the plant essential dieing while it flowers and it slowly cannibalizes itself to put its energy into its reproductive organs or flowers?

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That's because you deprive the plant of N when you which to bloom nutes, for some this is normal and considered healthy, to others no it is not.

Yes, a healthy plant stays green and leafy until the end.

tardis said:

I think its genetic if you can read plants or can't. sure you can learn it, but you wont be as successful as someone who just "has the gift." I can read my plants on an instinctual level, and although i'm very new and in no way a pro, my instincts make me look much smarter than I am (it doesn't hurt that i live in hawaii, but i've seen manymany friends fail at it). I think its a genetic trait, you either got the agricultural read plants gene or you don't. Like any human alle

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I meant to touch on this and got busy so I forgot perhaps I was stoned???

IMO this is not genetic but rather a learned skill, will the learning curve be a bit higher for some yes, I play guitar and while I can play the Crazy Train riff, I am no Randy Rhoades but to someone that can't play I seem like a great player. To new growers coming to this site I seem like a great grower. I have been playin guitar for over 20 years and gardening for over 40 so do I make this stuff look easy,,,,sure

The other thing is (that I have noticed) all the bad info in the forums increases the learning curve and causes confusion. If you have read my threads then you have seen pics of plants grown by patients I have taught one on one (in person) 1st time grows with beautiful plants, these patients had no preconcieved notions, no myths or bad info to dispell, they simply did what I told them and were easy to teach. Here however I have the stumbling block surrounding the forum retoric to overcome causes a lot of folks to ignore me (which I don't mind) those that find me and listen are all growing healthy, happy plants. I put these threads out on purpose to help get new growers a chance to find me and I bury info deep in my threads to get folks to read the whole thing. I back up things I say with solid rsearch and I try to teach by example with lots of pics. Those that have read my threads will tell you this is all true (some have already chimed in here) I give growers a foundation based in truth, gets em started but in the end experience is the best teacher

riddleme said:

I meant to touch on this and got busy so I forgot perhaps I was stoned???

IMO this is not genetic but rather a learned skill, will the learning curve be a bit higher for some yes, I play guitar and while I can play the Crazy Train riff, I am no Randy Rhoades but to someone that can't play I seem like a great player. To new growers coming to this site I seem like a great grower. I have been playin guitar for over 20 years and gardening for over 40 so do I make this stuff look easy,,,,sure

The other thing is (that I have noticed) all the bad info in the forums increases the learning curve and causes confusion. If you have read my threads then you have seen pics of plants grown by patients I have taught one on one (in person) 1st time grows with beautiful plants, these patients had no preconcieved notions, no myths or bad info to dispell, they simply did what I told them and were easy to teach. Here however I have the stumbling block surrounding the forum retoric to overcome causes a lot of folks to ignore me (which I don't mind) those that find me and listen are all growing healthy, happy plants. I put these threads out on purpose to help get new growers a chance to find me and I bury info deep in my threads to get folks to read the whole thing. I back up things I say with solid rsearch and I try to teach by example with lots of pics. Those that have read my threads will tell you this is all true (some have already chimed in here) I give growers a foundation based in truth, gets em started but in the end experience is the best teacher

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You deserve more of the credit for my plant than I do bro...lol

Namaste'

riddleme said:

I meant to touch on this and got busy so I forgot perhaps I was stoned???

IMO this is not genetic but rather a learned skill, will the learning curve be a bit higher for some yes, I play guitar and while I can play the Crazy Train riff, I am no Randy Rhoades but to someone that can't play I seem like a great player.r

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I never thought I would be able to play"dee" but I can play it pretty close to mr. rhoades after hours of practice. It's like when you first start, you really can't tell if it's out of tune, but once you develop your ear, you can hear it in a second.

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:

I never thought I would be able to play"dee" but I can play it pretty close to mr. rhoades after hours of practice. It's like when you first start, you really can't tell if it's out of tune, but once you develop your ear, you can hear it in a second.

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Humans can learn pretty much anything they put their minds on A strong desire with a bit of passion goes along way

Illumination said:

You deserve more of the credit for my plant than I do bro...lol

Namaste'

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post some pics we need more bud porn

I am going to start stalking you because I almost missed this one. I am becoming a borderline groupie of your posts and threads. Thanks for sharing your wealth of information. I will do my best to listen and learn (which is not always easy), and as I have stated before, you are a great teacher for new growers of MJ.