I Have A ? For You Religious People.

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
i love this story, please tell me again
Just look at it this way Fish. If god was supposed to be there before everything and is eternal, then why can it not be the same with all the matter in the universe?

It is the same concept, eternal, ect. You may as well call it god, but the effect is the same.

You have all matter which is in one dense object, the gravitational force keeps pulling in on it until it explodes out. That explosion can be equated when and where due to the direction that everything is moving and the speed it is moving. Eventually gravity is pulling on everything and pulling all the dust into larger balls that continue to pull on the other matter out there as it is hurdling through space.

Eventually those 'balls' of matter are going to be very large once again, and pulling on eachother they will form one object once again (feel free to insert god here) and as it pulls all the matter more and more inside of itself it hits a point where the pressure is so much that it explodes once again and the whole process is done again.


I believe that is the gist of it.
 

fish601

Active Member
Just look at it this way Fish. If god was supposed to be there before everything and is eternal, then why can it not be the same with all the matter in the universe?

It is the same concept, eternal, ect. You may as well call it god, but the effect is the same.

You have all matter which is in one dense object, the gravitational force keeps pulling in on it until it explodes out. That explosion can be equated when and where due to the direction that everything is moving and the speed it is moving. Eventually gravity is pulling on everything and pulling all the dust into larger balls that continue to pull on the other matter out there as it is hurdling through space.

Eventually those 'balls' of matter are going to be very large once again, and pulling on eachother they will form one object once again (feel free to insert god here) and as it pulls all the matter more and more inside of itself it hits a point where the pressure is so much that it explodes once again and the whole process is done again.


I believe that is the gist of it.
let me get this right

you believe matter , gravitational force , speed, space, and dust all existed but you think its unbelievable for a god to exist?
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
No you know that I have allowed for god everytime it gets to this level. Because nothing is there to disprove it. There is room for god, I am just saying that the man made bibles (aka all of them) are now too narrow to contain everything that we have learned. There could be a greater reason for everything that happens, but we were not imparted with this, so in absence of that we should continue to try to learn and use the gift we have (personal awareness and intelligence) to try to do our best and figure out as much as we can and pass that earned knowledge down through the generations.

Eventually if we last long enough as a species we may need to move from the confines of this planet and we need science to help us to understand how things work, so that we can figure out before we ship out what the best way to do it is.
 

Stoney McFried

Well-Known Member
Yet another spam post failing to credit the source.http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/evolfact.htm
"Approximately 15 billion years ago, life began..."
"No, it was more like 7 billion years ago..."
"Uh, well, the earth probably began about..."
"The strata may show..."
"Well, we evolutionists don't exactly agree about when, why or how the world began, but...


evolution is a fact and you are unscientific if you don't believe it?"






It is interesting to me how scientist have tricked everyone into believing in evolution. Evolution is not:
  • repeatable,
  • testable; or,
  • observable.
In other words, it doesn't even qualify as real science. Mmmm...I don't think You'll ever get me to believe a monkey is my uncle, a rat is my cousin, and that lice are my near kinsmen. Unless it's proven, as of now it's not!
 

fish601

Active Member
"Approximately 15 billion years ago, life began..."
"No, it was more like 7 billion years ago..."
"Uh, well, the earth probably began about..."
"The strata may show..."
"Well, we evolutionists don't exactly agree about when, why or how the world began, but...


evolution is a fact and you are unscientific if you don't believe it?"







It is interesting to me how scientist have tricked everyone into believing in evolution. Evolution is not:
  • repeatable,
  • testable; or,
  • observable.
In other words, it doesn't even qualify as real science. Mmmm...I don't think You'll ever get me to believe a monkey is my uncle, a rat is my cousin, and that lice are my near kinsmen. Unless it's proven, as of now it's not!

your so right.... it doesnt qualify as real science
 

krustofskie

Well-Known Member
I find it hard that you can believe in something without any real evidence (Religions) but you will dispute in the face of masses of evidence, I don't claim it to be complete evidence, that Evolution is wrong. All science has flaws, only looking into it further will we get all the answers, if not all of them we will get as many as possible. Religion just holds us back from the truth with unfounded and unproved propagander.
 

shroomer33

Active Member
Modern evolutionary theory breaks down because it CAN'T explain the origin of the information contained in DNA.
And that is just one huge flaw with the theory, more than enough to bury it. The problem is that most people working in evolutionary biology don't understand this whole information problem. They are not trained in information theory.
DNA is a digital code, much like the english alphabet. The following makes no sense:
allssk gfee ddrruem.
DNA is the same way. There is an alphabet that we haven't fully cracked yet. And only certain 'words' make biological sense. Certain 'words' make meaningful proteins. And my argument isn't even touching on HOW these proteins are put together to make the tiny machines in our cells.
Who laid out that alphabet? Not nature, that's for sure. Nature is redundant. Chemistry contains no information.
 

krustofskie

Well-Known Member
Modern evolutionary theory breaks down because it CAN'T explain the origin of the information contained in DNA.
And that is just one huge flaw with the theory, more than enough to bury it.
This does not bury it, it just confirms that it doesn't have all the answers, but we may get there one day. Just need to keep looking at were the evidence leads us. If that evidence eventually tells us as there is a higher being than ourselves that put that code there (lets call him/her/it god for arguments sake, as I don't say there is no god I just doubt it) then fair enough, I will accept what the evidence tells us, but we simply do not have all the answers, but at the moment evolution is the most logical, backed up by evidence, answer we have.

What it does do is show how most religions are a made up load of bollocks with one agenda, to control man with lies.
 

shroomer33

Active Member
This does not bury it, it just confirms that it doesn't have all the answers, but we may get there one day.
We won't get the answers we look for from classical Darwinian theory.
I am not arguing against natural selection, in and of itself.
But natural selection does not account for what Darwin thought it could.
That is my point.
Darwinian theory can NEVER tell us how the information got into DNA.

Darwinian theory does a good job at explaining alot, but it doesn't account for what Darwin thought it could. That's all.

Just need to keep looking at were the evidence leads us. If that evidence eventually tells us as there is a higher being than ourselves that put that code there (lets call him/her/it god for arguments sake, as I don't say there is no god I just doubt it) then fair enough, I will accept what the evidence tells us, but we simply do not have all the answers, but at the moment evolution is the most logical, backed up by evidence, answer we have.
This HAS happened. The evidence shows that some intelligence was responsible for DNA, and hence, life.

I am not saying that 'evolution' is total garbage. Evolutionary theory does have a good, scientific purpose, but it breaks down in many places, much like Newtonian physics broke down when we started looking at atomic phenomena and physics in large gravitational fields.

What it does do is show how most religions are a made up load of bollocks with one agenda, to control man with lies.
Government and mainstream media are bigger controllers of what people believe.
I offer you the idea that this same system of control is ALSO in most 'religions'.
All it is is deception.
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
Modern evolutionary theory breaks down because it CAN'T explain the origin of the information contained in DNA.
And that is just one huge flaw with the theory, more than enough to bury it. The problem is that most people working in evolutionary biology don't understand this whole information problem. They are not trained in information theory.
DNA is a digital code, much like the english alphabet. The following makes no sense:
allssk gfee ddrruem.
DNA is the same way. There is an alphabet that we haven't fully cracked yet. And only certain 'words' make biological sense. Certain 'words' make meaningful proteins. And my argument isn't even touching on HOW these proteins are put together to make the tiny machines in our cells.
Who laid out that alphabet? Not nature, that's for sure. Nature is redundant. Chemistry contains no information.

The theory of evolution doesn't say anything about the origin of the information contained in DNA. Are we to conclude that germ theory and cell theory are false too because the theory of evolution "CAN'T explain" them?

I think what you're opposing here is a-biogenesis. Commonly confused with the theory of evolution among creationsts, again showing those that tread in these waters often enough you're true colors, because it goes against their belief. The theory itself is pretty sound when you actually think about it, and as more time passes, we just keep getting closer to reproducing life in the lab. Like I've explained before, man made, synthetic life, created in the lab and you guys would STILL say it's not life because it doesn't have a soul. Be honest Shroomer, if we actually created life, would you recognize it as such, or would you do exactly what I'd expect you to do and shimmy your way out of the corner, again, like always...? At least give me that..

Whose to even say what life is? What if we created a highly intelligent computer that could learn and had emotions, or at least perceived programmed emotions, would that be life? What is life, as defined by you? Let's start with that.

Why not nature? You just admitted in the same exact paragraph "we haven't fully cracked yet."... So how can you be certain nature isn't capable of shaping our species and others? Take a look around you bro, how many different dog species can you see? Did you know wolves, coyotes, fox's, dingo's etc. all evolved from a common ancestor, but they cannot mate with eachother, they are a different species, but look how similar they look. Anyone would agree, even without a general knowledge of genetics or trait variation that they would belong in the same group among a group of animals. Same with all the cats, same with all the birds, etc... Why is that? Take it back even further, all the way back to the beginning, everything that is alive, everything that we've ever studied, dude, litterally millions of different organisms, are ALL based on carbon. All of them. Each and every single one has DNA with the bases Adenine, Thymine, Guanine and Cytosine. What does that suggest about all life on Earth? Why would an intelligent creator design life that is only based on the element Carbon? Why wouldn't there be other base pairs? It really seems like if there is an intelligent creator behind the scenes, he's not very intelligent and he's trying to trick us into a deceptive kind of blind faith. It's no longer belief without evidence, it's become beliefe DESPITE the evidence. What kind of omnipotent being would design such a system? One I certainly wouldn't worship.

One final note, Chemestry contains all the information on which life as you know it is based. Biology deduces back to Chemestry, Chemestry deduces back to Physics. You're here because biology allowed your existence to happen, biology happened because the chemestry was right, the chemestry was right because the physical laws were right. All the information you see is a result of this. Your misinterpretation of 'information' doesn't mean there is no natural explanation for existence.
 

shroomer33

Active Member

The theory of evolution doesn't say anything about the origin of the information contained in DNA. Are we to conclude that germ theory and cell theory are false too because the theory of evolution "CAN'T explain" them?

I think what you're opposing here is a-biogenesis. Commonly confused with the theory of evolution among creationsts, again showing those that tread in these waters often enough you're true colors, because it goes against their belief. The theory itself is pretty sound when you actually think about it, and as more time passes, we just keep getting closer to reproducing life in the lab. Like I've explained before, man made, synthetic life, created in the lab and you guys would STILL say it's not life because it doesn't have a soul. Be honest Shroomer, if we actually created life, would you recognize it as such, or would you do exactly what I'd expect you to do and shimmy your way out of the corner, again, like always...? At least give me that..
Would this 'life' be mindful? Or would it just be a computer programmed to do what we tell it to do?
We'll see if this synthetic life can make decisions.
Whose to even say what life is? What if we created a highly intelligent computer that could learn and had emotions, or at least perceived programmed emotions, would that be life? What is life, as defined by you? Let's start with that.
Good question. I guess it would be able to make decisions. I don't really know.
Why not nature? You just admitted in the same exact paragraph "we haven't fully cracked yet."... So how can you be certain nature isn't capable of shaping our species and others?
I don't doubt nature has shaped life on earth, at all. We respond to external stimuli.

Take a look around you bro, how many different dog species can you see? Did you know wolves, coyotes, fox's, dingo's etc. all evolved from a common ancestor, but they cannot mate with eachother, they are a different species, but look how similar they look. Anyone would agree, even without a general knowledge of genetics or trait variation that they would belong in the same group among a group of animals. Same with all the cats, same with all the birds, etc... Why is that? Take it back even further, all the way back to the beginning, everything that is alive, everything that we've ever studied, dude, litterally millions of different organisms, are ALL based on carbon. All of them. Each and every single one has DNA with the bases Adenine, Thymine, Guanine and Cytosine. What does that suggest about all life on Earth? Why would an intelligent creator design life that is only based on the element Carbon? Why wouldn't there be other base pairs?
There is no reason why this intelligent creator wouldn't use the same parts for different things.
We use engines in motorcycles, cars, submarines, boats, etc.
It doesn't mean that they all had a common ancestor. It means that engines work well to do certain things.

It really seems like if there is an intelligent creator behind the scenes, he's not very intelligent and he's trying to trick us into a deceptive kind of blind faith. It's no longer belief without evidence, it's become beliefe DESPITE the evidence. What kind of omnipotent being would design such a system? One I certainly wouldn't worship.

One final note, Chemestry contains all the information on which life as you know it is based. Biology deduces back to Chemestry, Chemestry deduces back to Physics. You're here because biology allowed your existence to happen, biology happened because the chemestry was right, the chemestry was right because the physical laws were right. All the information you see is a result of this. Your misinterpretation of 'information' doesn't mean there is no natural explanation for existence.
All natural processes are devoid of any kind of information. They are, by definition, redundant. The same thing will happen over and over, given the same initial conditions.

The point here is that chemistry and physics and such can only explain why ink sticks to paper. They can NEVER explain what the message says. It is the same thing with DNA. All things 'natural' (chemistry, physics, etc) can only explain why things attract and bond, but they can't explain what's encoded in DNA, just like chemistry and physics can't explain the english alphabet.
 

krustofskie

Well-Known Member
Government and mainstream media are bigger controllers of what people believe.
I offer you the idea that this same system of control is ALSO in most 'religions'.
All it is is deception.
All to true, but its the religions that started it. After all until recent history in most parts of the world and still in some, it was the "churches" (please change for appropriate religion) that controlled the governments.
 

shroomer33

Active Member
Religion has been, for the longest time, intertwined with government. Even back in Egypt and Babylon, kings/pharaohs were considered gods. This intertwining of religion and state has been around for a reeeeeaaally long time, and it has never done humanity any good. It is all mind control and power. If you can control what people think, you have all the power. And the Catholic Church is a great example of this.
This is why in America there is supposed to be a 1st Amendment. That is, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise therof ..."

...at least that's how I see it.
 

krustofskie

Well-Known Member
I agree, now where told different lies by the government, but at least we have the freedom to believe what we like without persecution from the state, to an extent anyway, giving us the chance to make up our own minds rather than being told we must believe.
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
Religion has been, for the longest time, intertwined with government. Even back in Egypt and Babylon, kings/pharaohs were considered gods. This intertwining of religion and state has been around for a reeeeeaaally long time, and it has never done humanity any good. It is all mind control and power. If you can control what people think, you have all the power. And the Catholic Church is a great example of this.
This is why in America there is supposed to be a 1st Amendment. That is, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise therof ..."

...at least that's how I see it.

At least you admit that much. I'll give you that.

I can't say the same for your boys fish and GreenCross though..

Apparently "white male Christians" are being persecuted in America today "specifically because of their religious beliefs". (that's GC talking there, but the way I see it is more people are becoming open to talking about these issues, facts are being presented and knowledge is being shared like never before with things like the internet and it's getting out in the open, becoming public because of this. It's not that religion is being criticized like never before, it's infact being criticized the same, it's just that our technology today makes it easier to witness and harder to hide. That's what CG is seeing, and I fucking welcome it! Actually, I personally go a little farther than that, as I'm here actually contributing to it's intevitable demise, not just RIU, but plenty of other places too, as well as in my daily life...)
 

Basshead

Well-Known Member
Alot of people inside and outside religion misconstrue its purpose. You don't grab a chainsaw, and walk into a rainforest with the intent of building a Personal Computer. Personal Computers serve their purpose in the technology arena, and Trees serve their purpose in the ecological arena. For us as human beings, we have utilized technology to such an extent that is is a wonderful supplement if we haven't come to is as a dependency completely. But without our ecological system, everything would die. Read MLK :
"softmindedness often invades religion. this is why religion has "sometimes" rejected new truth with dogmatic passion. through edicts and bulls, inquisitions and excommunications, the church has attempted to prorogue truth and place an impenetrable stone wall in the path of the truth seeker. the historical-philological criticism of the Bible is considered by the soft-minded as blasphemous, and reason is often looked upon as the exercise of a corrupt faculty. Softminded persons have revised the Beautitudes to read, "Blessed are the pure in ignorance: for they shall see God."

This has also led to a widespread belief that there is a conflict between science and religion. But this is not true. There may be a conflict between softminded religionists and tough-minded scientists, but not between science and religion. Their respective worlds are different and their methods are dissimilar. Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power; religion gives man wisdom which is control. Science deals mainly with cold hard facts; religion deals mainly with ethical values. THE TWO ARE NOT RIVALS. they are complimentary. Science keeps religion from sinking into the valley of crippling irrationalism and paralyzing obscurantism. Religion prevents science from falling into the marsh of obsolete materialism and moral nihilism."
does this lead you to better understanding? There are some scientists I am aware of that are getting highly annoyed with our fetishism with the so-called "conflict" between religion and science. Its softmindedness. A strong minded scientist accepts the limitations of his or her practice. A strong minded Religious person accepts the limits of his or her religious belief.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
I'd say rather that Evolution gives Religion the "pink slip". It's no longer really needed. We know enough now to understand that the Bible is a set of nice stories, and there are some good morals to be found within, but it's certainly not the word of G*D. Even the church is sliding on that one..... only the fringes will remain in the end.

I just hope they don't run through the streets with all kinds of snakes..... scares the kids and women. :lol:
 

Brazko

Well-Known Member
Give it Up 4 da Doc'.. Great Find!! +rep

Some people don't cAre 4 Commies..:lol:

Alot of people inside and outside religion misconstrue its purpose. You don't grab a chainsaw, and walk into a rainforest with the intent of building a Personal Computer. Personal Computers serve their purpose in the technology arena, and Trees serve their purpose in the ecological arena. For us as human beings, we have utilized technology to such an extent that is is a wonderful supplement if we haven't come to is as a dependency completely. But without our ecological system, everything would die. Read MLK :
"softmindedness often invades religion. this is why religion has "sometimes" rejected new truth with dogmatic passion. through edicts and bulls, inquisitions and excommunications, the church has attempted to prorogue truth and place an impenetrable stone wall in the path of the truth seeker. the historical-philological criticism of the Bible is considered by the soft-minded as blasphemous, and reason is often looked upon as the exercise of a corrupt faculty. Softminded persons have revised the Beautitudes to read, "Blessed are the pure in ignorance: for they shall see God."

This has also led to a widespread belief that there is a conflict between science and religion. But this is not true. There may be a conflict between softminded religionists and tough-minded scientists, but not between science and religion. Their respective worlds are different and their methods are dissimilar. Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power; religion gives man wisdom which is control. Science deals mainly with cold hard facts; religion deals mainly with ethical values. THE TWO ARE NOT RIVALS. they are complimentary. Science keeps religion from sinking into the valley of crippling irrationalism and paralyzing obscurantism. Religion prevents science from falling into the marsh of obsolete materialism and moral nihilism."
does this lead you to better understanding? There are some scientists I am aware of that are getting highly annoyed with our fetishism with the so-called "conflict" between religion and science. Its softmindedness. A strong minded scientist accepts the limitations of his or her practice. A strong minded Religious person accepts the limits of his or her religious belief.
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
Science keeps religion from sinking into the valley of crippling irrationalism and paralyzing obscurantism. Religion prevents science from falling into the marsh of obsolete materialism and moral nihilism."
I disagree.

I realize this is it, this life is all there is. That does not make my life less meaningful, it infact makes it MORE meaningful.

As an atheist, materialism is not the only thing I believe in. I try to be as moral as possible, my atheistic beliefs say nothing about me being a nice guy or believing I have a purpose or striving for success or any of that. This nihilistic view believers (again..) believe atheists have without any evidence (or I guess I shouldn't say any evidence, it's how they think they would feel if they let go of the fairy tale... which sure as fuck says a lot about the people who present these kinds of arguments in the first place eh...) is ridiculous. Just because you might feel lonely and useless without God doesn't mean I would.
 
Top