imho hydro sucks

3rd Monkey said:

I don't disagree.

However, like you just said, the home grower can be more environmentally friendly, by not overusing or abusing either line of nutrition and ceasing any negative effects that would have occurred.

If you could make people stop destroying the planet, this organic vs synthetic chat we are having... wouldn't exist.

To sum this all up from my standpoint, neither is more detrimental. Wells have been manure poisoned, ponds have been leached with edta, and oceans contaminated with oil. Nothing changes and it hurts my heart.

That said, anybody with a high school chemistry education can reckognize that an ion is an ion, synthetic chelating agents are man made and leach out dragging whatever it bonds to with it, and overfertilizing is bad no matter the fertilizer. Is there a debate to be had... not about nutrients. Chelating agents... absolutely.

Click to expand...

I'm saying the way nutrient is sourced for any fertilizer doesn't sit well with me. All the nutrition for a plant can be sourced from above ground, and that's my point. When organic farming is done right, water and crop cycling is just about all you need.

Effluent from huge farms and feed lots are a major concern, that's a different debate entirety, and not the point i'm making. That is a man made problem due to human demand. Don't even get me started on how a lot of organic amendments are sourced. There are two sides to every coin.

Point being, if the home grower is resourceful enough, they don't have to source fertilizer at all. Plant waste alone can make great compost.

Question is, are ANY fertilizers 100% renewable? Likely not anywhere close to the same demand. Big problem.

Edit: also just how concentrated many fertilizers are. It's extremely hard to burn an organic garden from organic material. That's a hell of a lot of crap in one dose.

I prefer organic grown weed. Just the way it is. With the option of choice, i'll take organic everytime, because it's organic. So damn what lol

3rd Monkey said:

I don't disagree.

However, like you just said, the home grower can be more environmentally friendly, by not overusing or abusing either line of nutrition and ceasing any negative effects that would have occurred.

If you could make people stop destroying the planet, this organic vs synthetic chat we are having... wouldn't exist.

To sum this all up from my standpoint, neither is more detrimental. Wells have been manure poisoned, ponds have been leached with edta, and oceans contaminated with oil. Nothing changes and it hurts my heart.

That said, anybody with a high school chemistry education can reckognize that an ion is an ion, synthetic chelating agents are man made and leach out dragging whatever it bonds to with it, and overfertilizing is bad no matter the fertilizer. Is there a debate to be had... not about nutrients. Chelating agents... absolutely.

Click to expand...

Not to mention that all the lawsuits against the Flint, MI representatives were just dropped, meaning that once again, no one's accountable for fucking up he planet for the rest of us!

Aqua Man said:

Agreed. But take a tbsp of salt mix it with water and spray it over a 20x20 ft lawn. You will see no real effects. Now do this once a week and eventually your grass will stop growing. It may take years but that salt will build up because it's not being used by the plants and the soil will be garbage until you either replace it or add top soil to essentially dilute it

Click to expand...

I like most of your stuff but on he issue of salts you're so wrong.

That low dose spray of salt on your lawn won't do anything unless you keep a tarp over it so the rain can't wash it way.

These huge algae blooms in the great lakes are caused by farmer pollution and things like phosphates in laundry detergents. That's why 30 years ago the gov't forced soap makers to reduce the amount of phosphates in their products. Now they use more toxic crud to do the job of cleaning clothes but it doesn't cause algae blooms so it's OK. lol

The Mississippi River dumps megatons of farmer runoff into the ocean causing all the oxygen to be used up and causing dead zones that cover hundreds of square miles of ocean. The same thing happens all over the world where us parasitic humans congregate in large numbers.

In the Fraser Valley in BC where I used to live the farmers there have been putting way to much raw manures on their crops for years. This has leached into the water table that cities like Abbotsford use for their drinking water and contaminated the hell out of with high nitrate levels. All natural and organic but still not what you want in your drinking water.

For your average home grower dumping waste nutes in the toilet won't hurt a thing. Think of all the nutrients in your turds and urine not to mention metabolites from prescription and OTC drugs that go down the john. Using those nutes on your lawn or garden is good for them and hydro nutes DO NOT use sodium salts in their mixes so that is Fake News!

Large industrial growers do need to use environmentally sound methods to dispose of their much larger amounts of waste products but that's SOP in any industrial setting and only the black market growers ignore the laws around that but even they are a lot smaller than the legal producers overseen by gov't regulators.

Great news is that the USDA is going to allow hydroponically grown produce to be labelled organic so we can all stop arguing about which is better and go back to just growing pot! Our infinitely wise government should soon follow suit.

I have a better understanding of how all this stuff works than your average Joe as I studied air, water and ground pollution for 3 years while getting my diploma in environmental chemistry back in the late 80s.

We're all in a lot of trouble folks and home growers aren't even a tiny blip on the radar.

Aussieaceae said:

I'm saying the way nutrient is sourced for any fertilizer doesn't sit well with me. All the nutrition for a plant can be sourced from above ground, and that's my point. When organic farming is done right, water and crop cycling is just about all you need.

Effluent from huge farms and feed lots are a major concern, that's a different debate entirety, and not the point i'm making. That is a man made problem due to human demand. Don't even get me started on how a lot of organic amendments are sourced. There are two sides to every coin.

Point being, if the home grower is resourceful enough, they don't have to source fertilizer at all. Plant waste alone can make great compost.

Question is, are ANY fertilizers 100% renewable? Likely not anywhere close to the same demand. Big problem.

Edit: also just how concentrated many fertilizers are. It's extremely hard to burn an organic garden from organic material. That's a hell of a lot of crap in one dose.

I prefer organic grown weed. Just the way it is. With the option of choice, i'll take organic everytime, because it's organic. So damn what lol

Click to expand...

Once again, I don't disagree.

Your issues are with human behavior and population, less with nutrition.

OldMedUser said:

I like most of your stuff but on he issue of salts you're so wrong.

That low dose spray of salt on your lawn won't do anything unless you keep a tarp over it so the rain can't wash it way.

These huge algae blooms in the great lakes are caused by farmer pollution and things like phosphates in laundry detergents. That's why 30 years ago the gov't forced soap makers to reduce the amount of phosphates in their products. Now they use more toxic crud to do the job of cleaning clothes but it doesn't cause algae blooms so it's OK. lol

The Mississippi River dumps megatons of farmer runoff into the ocean causing all the oxygen to be used up and causing dead zones that cover hundreds of square miles of ocean. The same thing happens all over the world where us parasitic humans congregate in large numbers.

In the Fraser Valley in BC where I used to live the farmers there have been putting way to much raw manures on their crops for years. This has leached into the water table that cities like Abbotsford use for their drinking water and contaminated the hell out of with high nitrate levels. All natural and organic but still not what you want in your drinking water.

For your average home grower dumping waste nutes in the toilet won't hurt a thing. Think of all the nutrients in your turds and urine not to mention metabolites from prescription and OTC drugs that go down the john. Using those nutes on your lawn or garden is good for them and hydro nutes DO NOT use sodium salts in their mixes so that is Fake News!

Large industrial growers do need to use environmentally sound methods to dispose of their much larger amounts of waste products but that's SOP in any industrial setting and only the black market growers ignore the laws around that but even they are a lot smaller than the legal producers overseen by gov't regulators.

Great news is that the USDA is going to allow hydroponically grown produce to be labelled organic so we can all stop arguing about which is better and go back to just growing pot! Our infinitely wise government should soon follow suit.

I have a better understanding of how all this stuff works than your average Joe as I studied air, water and ground pollution for 3 years while getting my diploma in environmental chemistry back in the late 80s.

We're all in a lot of trouble folks and home growers aren't even a tiny blip on the radar.

Click to expand...

I agree with most of this. Is it realistic to say sodium isn't used to make fertilizer at all. What of Sodium Phosphate, Sodium Nitrate?

Also imo it'll be the homegrowers that eventually turns the tide and save the planet.

If the hydroponic nutrient was sourced 100% organically, fair enough. Otherwise it's a giant cash grab imo.

3rd Monkey said:

Once again, I don't disagree.

Your issues are with human behavior and population, less with nutrition.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, though is it safe to say not to be concerned about it?

Imvho you're missing the problem. It's not about the plants we are growing ourselves in our gardens. It's the ecosystem around us.

The ions used to grow the plant doesn't even come into the equation for me tbh. Idgaff

My choice to smoke organic is an environmental one. So what, who tf cares man.

Aussieaceae said:

I agree with most of this. Is it realistic to say sodium isn't used to make fertilizer at all. What of Sodium Phosphate, Sodium Nitrate?

Also imo it'll be the homegrowers that eventually turns the tide and save the planet.

If the hydroponic nutrient was sourced 100% organically, fair enough. Otherwise it's a giant cash grab imo.

Click to expand...

I just went and read the ingredients labels on all 3 of my AN nute jugs and the word sodium isn't on any of them. Calcium nitrate is used as is monopotassium phosphate but sodium anything is not an ingredient in any nutes I know of.

Sodium and Calcium are very similar metals but have very different effects in animal and plant physiology. We need some sodium and many other electrolytes for good health but too much sodium leads to high blood pressure in humans so that's the first thing doctors tell you to cut back on if your bp is high. Mine is chronically low so I can have all I want tho I'm more of a sweet tooth kind of snacker. Since finding out that I enjoy salty snacks without guilt and even add extra salt to my foods tho I use pink Himalayan sea salt which is only 42% sodium chloride aka table salt aka NaCl. It has 84 other salts in it so I get a much wider range of electrolytes in my diet that way.

Advanced Nutes now make 'organically derived' hydro nutes so I can have my organic cake and eat it too if I want but it's all hokum to me and the regular stuff will do fine.

The microherd in soil grows produce the same kind of salts in a bottle of hydro nutes that are needed to feed the plants so it's all moot. Calling them chemical fertilizers is misleading as they are derived from organic rocks if rocks can be considered organic.

I used to make my own calcium nitrate from marble chips and nitric acid. Both of which are made naturally in our environment so WTF? The nitric acid I have is made in a chemical plant but is chemically identical to that made in nature but even purer.

All life is based on chemistry from the tiniest bacteria to the giant redwoods and there are thousands of chemical reactions going on in your body right this moment.

Without chemistry there is nothing so to deride it all is to prove ones ignorance. Good and bad in everything. Roundup - bad. Clean nutes - good.

Aussieaceae said:

Fair enough, though is it safe to say not to be concerned about it?

Imvho you're missing the problem. It's not about the plants we are growing ourselves in our gardens. It's the ecosystem around us.

The ions used to grow the plant doesn't even come into the equation for me tbh. Idgaff

My choice to smoke organic is an environmental one. So what, who tf cares man.

Click to expand...

Didn't say I wasn't concerned, nor am I missing the problem.

I just know that I can only control what's in my line of sight. I can try to influence decisions of others, but I can't control them.

I could waste words here since I share the same passion, but there's no proactive step here in my opinion. Money is what makes the world go round at the moment. You aren't going to trump that with ideals and morality.

In another 20-50 years when the earth falls flat on its face... yea, we'll be there to restore order and revive barren wastelands to their former oasis. As of right now though... I just do the best I can.

OldMedUser said:

I like most of your stuff but on he issue of salts you're so wrong.

That low dose spray of salt on your lawn won't do anything unless you keep a tarp over it so the rain can't wash it way.

These huge algae blooms in the great lakes are caused by farmer pollution and things like phosphates in laundry detergents. That's why 30 years ago the gov't forced soap makers to reduce the amount of phosphates in their products. Now they use more toxic crud to do the job of cleaning clothes but it doesn't cause algae blooms so it's OK. lol

The Mississippi River dumps megatons of farmer runoff into the ocean causing all the oxygen to be used up and causing dead zones that cover hundreds of square miles of ocean. The same thing happens all over the world where us parasitic humans congregate in large numbers.

In the Fraser Valley in BC where I used to live the farmers there have been putting way to much raw manures on their crops for years. This has leached into the water table that cities like Abbotsford use for their drinking water and contaminated the hell out of with high nitrate levels. All natural and organic but still not what you want in your drinking water.

For your average home grower dumping waste nutes in the toilet won't hurt a thing. Think of all the nutrients in your turds and urine not to mention metabolites from prescription and OTC drugs that go down the john. Using those nutes on your lawn or garden is good for them and hydro nutes DO NOT use sodium salts in their mixes so that is Fake News!

Large industrial growers do need to use environmentally sound methods to dispose of their much larger amounts of waste products but that's SOP in any industrial setting and only the black market growers ignore the laws around that but even they are a lot smaller than the legal producers overseen by gov't regulators.

Great news is that the USDA is going to allow hydroponically grown produce to be labelled organic so we can all stop arguing about which is better and go back to just growing pot! Our infinitely wise government should soon follow suit.

I have a better understanding of how all this stuff works than your average Joe as I studied air, water and ground pollution for 3 years while getting my diploma in environmental chemistry back in the late 80s.

We're all in a lot of trouble folks and home growers aren't even a tiny blip on the radar.

Click to expand...

That's what my understanding was.

Fair enough and that's why I'm asking questions and debating... Only way learn or correct your misinformation.

I'm a pretty hard headed guy so it takes me some time of debate to accept things. But I am always open to learning and science and beliefs change over the years. I'm not foolish enough to think otherwise. But also not foolish enough to accept answers without a debate of my beliefs.

If nobody else learned anything from this I'm ok with that but I did so it was worth it to me.

3rd Monkey said:

Didn't say I wasn't concerned, nor am I missing the problem.

I just know that I can only control what's in my line of sight. I can try to influence decisions of others, but I can't control them.

I could waste words here since I share the same passion, but there's no proactive step here in my opinion. Money is what makes the world go round at the moment. You aren't going to trump that with ideals and morality.

In another 20-50 years when the earth falls flat on its face... yea, we'll be there to restore order and revive barren wastelands to their former oasis. As of right now though... I just do the best I can.

Click to expand...

Exactly man, and why attempt to influence others decisions. Who freaking cares, people do what they want to do.

I like organic weed more, from an environmental perspective. Just so happens i think it's a superior product when i smoke it. Whether my own, or someone elses. It makes me feel better. Call it bias, call it placebo, call it whatever you like. That ain't gonna change, we like what we like.

Opinion is subjective and personal.

Aqua Man said:

That's what my understanding was.

Fair enough and that's why I'm asking questions and debating... Only way learn or correct your misinformation.

I'm a pretty hard headed guy so it takes me some time of debate to accept things. But I am always open to learning and science and beliefs change over the years. I'm not foolish enough to think otherwise. But also not foolish enough to accept answers without a debate of my beliefs.

If nobody else learned anything from this I'm ok with that but I did so it was worth it to me.

Click to expand...

Imo you're absolutely right about the sodium part. There's only so much gypsum we can use for instance. Gypsum is used extensively in agriculture to improve dispersive soil. It helps the dispersive soil, (usually clay) form aggregates in the soil. In a practical sense it's only making the sodium less dissolvable. The issue still remains, that the salt content is still there, it doesn't go anywhere. Only takes time, as you say, to become a problem.
You can only keep adding so much organic matter to try and counter this. It's still going to be a problem eventually.

Dispersive soil will form eventually without organic material and crop cycling.Though i'd put the whole house on fertilizer causing dispersive soil, much, much faster.

OldMedUser said:

I just went and read the ingredients labels on all 3 of my AN nute jugs and the word sodium isn't on any of them. Calcium nitrate is used as is monopotassium phosphate but sodium anything is not an ingredient in any nutes I know of.

Sodium and Calcium are very similar metals but have very different effects in animal and plant physiology. We need some sodium and many other electrolytes for good health but too much sodium leads to high blood pressure in humans so that's the first thing doctors tell you to cut back on if your bp is high. Mine is chronically low so I can have all I want tho I'm more of a sweet tooth kind of snacker. Since finding out that I enjoy salty snacks without guilt and even add extra salt to my foods tho I use pink Himalayan sea salt which is only 42% sodium chloride aka table salt aka NaCl. It has 84 other salts in it so I get a much wider range of electrolytes in my diet that way.

Advanced Nutes now make 'organically derived' hydro nutes so I can have my organic cake and eat it too if I want but it's all hokum to me and the regular stuff will do fine.

The microherd in soil grows produce the same kind of salts in a bottle of hydro nutes that are needed to feed the plants so it's all moot. Calling them chemical fertilizers is misleading as they are derived from organic rocks if rocks can be considered organic.

I used to make my own calcium nitrate from marble chips and nitric acid. Both of which are made naturally in our environment so WTF? The nitric acid I have is made in a chemical plant but is chemically identical to that made in nature but even purer.

All life is based on chemistry from the tiniest bacteria to the giant redwoods and there are thousands of chemical reactions going on in your body right this moment.

Without chemistry there is nothing so to deride it all is to prove ones ignorance. Good and bad in everything. Roundup - bad. Clean nutes - good.

Click to expand...

Maybe i'm a little behind with the times. It's my understanding Sodium Phosphate and Sodium Nitrate have been used extensively in agriculture.

bdt1981 said:

But im learning some interestingly useless information about ions and such reading what u guys are talking about. Lol

Click to expand...

Tham OP you where like the noob and 1/2 back then. That's why I'll give you a pass for starting shit back then. But why rehash it?? OP common man! All the bro Science wont help us now...

Aqua Man said:

That's what my understanding was.

Fair enough and that's why I'm asking questions and debating... Only way learn or correct your misinformation.

I'm a pretty hard headed guy so it takes me some time of debate to accept things. But I am always open to learning and science and beliefs change over the years. I'm not foolish enough to think otherwise. But also not foolish enough to accept answers without a debate of my beliefs.

If nobody else learned anything from this I'm ok with that but I did so it was worth it to me.

Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong. I totally believe what we are doing to our planet is disgusting and at the rate we're doing it it's not much longer before it all goes down the shitter.

It's been known for decades that our over-reliance on fossil fuels would cause great harm to the planet but there's so much money in it that the ways around it have been suppressed by the people making that money.

The heyday of the post-war period that I was born into was ignorant of the potential harms that our consumeristic lifestyle was leading us into. By the late 60s it was becoming apparent and many protests of he day were about environmental concerns. I used to skip school to attend GreenPeace marches in Vancouver. Not so much for my own concerns but as a valid excuse to take a day off school and party hearty! I was only 17 in '71 and could get into the Anchor Hotel in Gastown and swill beer all day then crash my motorcycle on Oak St on the way back to Richmond. Smashed up my knee pretty bad and my buddy flew over the car I slid into but we managed to get out of there before the cops showed up so a good time was had by all. Except for the guy I hit.

With all that's going on in the world I could rant on for pages but there are other forums for that. I worry about my sons and five grandchildren tho not to mention all my other family members and all the families on this fragile blue ball floating in space we call home.

There's just too damn many of us and we all want the affluent, wasreful lifestyles that western civilization has been wallowing in for the the last 100 years. Just can't be done so our lifestyles need to change fairly drastically and 3rd world countries on their way up need to settle for less than what we have now.

Climate change is real. I believe it is being driven by natural changes that have gone on for millennia but humankind is pushing it to happen much faster than it would go naturally. Especially in the rising CO2 levels and the global warming aspect not to mention acidification of the world's oceans brought on by fossil fuel use.

With warming comes tropical diseases to more northern climes that have never seen them before that will cause outbreaks that will eventually kill millions. Rising sea levels will force more crowding and a reduction in resources that will lead to the deaths of millions more. Famine and shortage of clean water will cause wars that will will likely kill billions.

Mother nature has ways to keep populations in balance in the natural world and we are going to find out what that is all about in the upcoming century. It's not going to be fun.

OldMedUser said:

Don't get me wrong. I totally believe what we are doing to our planet is disgusting and at the rate we're doing it it's not much longer before it all goes down the shitter.

It's been known for decades that our over-reliance on fossil fuels would cause great harm to the planet but there's so much money in it that the ways around it have been suppressed by the people making that money.

The heyday of the post-war period that I was born into was ignorant of the potential harms that our consumeristic lifestyle was leading us into. By the late 60s it was becoming apparent and many protests of he day were about environmental concerns. I used to skip school to attend GreenPeace marches in Vancouver. Not so much for my own concerns but as a valid excuse to take a day off school and party hearty! I was only 17 in '71 and could get into the Anchor Hotel in Gastown and swill beer all day then crash my motorcycle on Oak St on the way back to Richmond. Smashed up my knee pretty bad and my buddy flew over the car I slid into but we managed to get out of there before the cops showed up so a good time was had by all. Except for the guy I hit.

With all that's going on in the world I could rant on for pages but there are other forums for that. I worry about my sons and five grandchildren tho not to mention all my other family members and all the families on this fragile blue ball floating in space we call home.

There's just too damn many of us and we all want the affluent, wasreful lifestyles that western civilization has been wallowing in for the the last 100 years. Just can't be done so our lifestyles need to change fairly drastically and 3rd world countries on their way up need to settle for less than what we have now.

Climate change is real. I believe it is being driven by natural changes that have gone on for millennia but humankind is pushing it to happen much faster than it would go naturally. Especially in the rising CO2 levels and the global warming aspect not to mention acidification of the world's oceans brought on by fossil fuel use.

With warming comes tropical diseases to more northern climes that have never seen them before that will cause outbreaks that will eventually kill millions. Rising sea levels will force more crowding and a reduction in resources that will lead to the deaths of millions more. Famine and shortage of clean water will cause wars that will will likely kill billions.

Mother nature has ways to keep populations in balance in the natural world and we are going to find out what that is all about in the upcoming century. It's not going to be fun.

Click to expand...

Have to say my opinion is it's the world population that is the true problem. Natural selection is almost non existent in the human race. I agree we are in for a rude awakening because nature has its way of sorting things out and eventually our technology will not allow us to avoid it. Be it weather, bioligic or other it's a coming at some point.

Aussieaceae said:

I like organic weed more, from an environmental perspective. Just so happens i think it's a superior product when i smoke it. Whether my own, or someone elses. It makes me feel better. Call it bias, call it placebo, call it whatever you like. That ain't gonna change, we like what we like.

Opinion is subjective and personal.

Click to expand...

There is no doubt in my mind that good organic pot has a wider range and amount of various terpenes, esters etc that give it more full bodied taste and smell. It's kinda like being a wine snob tho the way some people go on about it. I don't have such a sophisticated palate so it's not been a big deal for me or almost anyone I know way up here in Bumf**k, AB.

As I only grow pot for myself and it's medicinal effects for myself and a very few friends who feel the same about pot taste is 2nd to the medical effects. I'm currently adding organics to my soilless promix and switching to Mega Crop nutes from AN for that growing. When I do DWC again I'll use the AN stuff for that mainly to get higher yields of stoner pot for some I know that don't care about the health aspects of pot but want to get stoned off their asses. Somebody has to contribute to my electric bill!

Aussieaceae said:

There's only so much gypsum we can use for instance. Gypsum is used extensively in agriculture to improve dispersive soil. It helps the dispersive soil, (usually clay) form aggregates in the soil. It in a practical sense it's only making the sodium less dissolving. The issue still remains, that the salt content is still there, it doesn't go anywhere. Only takes time, as you say, to become a problem.
You can only keep adding so much organic matter to try and counter this. It's still going to be a problem eventually.

Dispersive soil will form eventually without organic material and crop cycling.Though i'd put the whole house on fertilizer causing dispersive soil, much, much faster.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you are saying here and are you talking about fertilizer salts in general or sodium chloride in particular? You need a source of sodium chloride for that salt to be in the soil. Salt spray from farming near oceans does cause problems but for inland farms there is no sodium added from any natural or man-made source.

Agricultural gypsum is a great source of calcium and sulfur and would be good to use in late flower to promote resin and terpene production as sulfur is essential for the formation of odoriferous compounds that make the pot stink. Think rotten eggs, hydrogen sulfide gas for an idea of nasty sulfurous compounds. The thing with using gypsum is it needs to be acted on by the microherd in the soil before the plants can use it. This is why organic growers mix their super-soils up months in advance and let them 'cook'. Soil temps are important to bacterial action too. At 60F these helpful bugs are almost comatose but at 70+ they are very active and working hard to feed your plants.

My first forays into growing pot organically in real dirt with organic inputs failed badly but I've learned a lot in the almost two decades since and am dipping my toes into organic gardening with the intent to go full organic in the future for my main growing. The ProMix HP I use for a base was certified OMRI organic but I just checked out the bag I recently used up and there's no OMRI label on it.

They make a wide range of products both peat and coco based and some are certified organic. Most come with myco added but their myco powder is not sold in Canada for some reason. I got some at a local nursery and will pick up more on Monday when we have to go to the city for the wife's CAT scan. She's already had one and an ultrasound but this one is more intensive. They're talking liver cancer but that's not confirmed yet.

https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/products/

Pro-Mix has a great Training center too. Plenty of real scientific grow info and pest control subjects covered.

https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/

Aussieaceae said:

Maybe i'm a little behind with the times. It's my understanding Sodium Phosphate and Sodium Nitrate have been used extensively in agriculture.

Click to expand...

Your mixing that up. I worked for a fertilizer company here and would mix blends of fertilizer salts using a bobcat to load bucket loads into a huge cement mixer type machine to blend it all together and then load it into trucks with an auger for the local farmers. Ammonium nitrate, (the stuff explosives are made from), was the main source of nitrogen tho I drove truck delivering liquid anhydrous ammonia, (NH3), out to farmers in the field that applied it with a cultivator. Nasty stuff and have to get serious training to handle it. One good whiff can kill you and I had a couple close calls over the 10 seasons I did that job. My own arrogance in not wearing my full-face respirator almost cost me my life.

Not far from here a guy was killed trying to steal it from a wagon at one of the bullits where it is stored. Crawled under the tank, (like a long 1200- 3000gal propane tank on wheels), with a 5gal pail and an electric drill thinking to drain some off to make methamphetamine with it. Horrible way to die.

No sodium containing compounds are used in any fertilizers.

OldMedUser said:

There is no doubt in my mind that good organic pot has a wider range and amount of various terpenes, esters etc that give it more full bodied taste and smell. It's kinda like being a wine snob tho the way some people go on about it..

Click to expand...

Well without snobbing you off, i agree, the debate gets old. Just like some vegans, some organic growers and smokers ruin it for everyone else.

Already said i'll happily smoke either. But presented with the opportunity, i know what i'll choose everytime.

Snobbishness exists in both camps.

QUOTE="OldMedUser, post: 14944847, member: 926228"]
I'm not sure what you are saying here and are you talking about fertilizer salts in general or sodium chloride in particular? You need a source of sodium chloride for that salt to be in the soil. Salt spray from farming near oceans does cause problems but for inland farms there is no sodium added from any natural or man-made source.

Agricultural gypsum is a great source of calcium and sulfur and would be good to use in late flower to promote resin and terpene production as sulfur is essential for the formation of odoriferous compounds that make the pot stink. Think rotten eggs, hydrogen sulfide gas for an idea of nasty sulfurous compounds. The thing with using gypsum is it needs to be acted on by the microherd in the soil before the plants can use it. This is why organic growers mix their super-soils up months in advance and let them 'cook'.

Not exactly true.

Gypsum isn't a fertilizer so to speak, but a soil conditioner. It adds to soil fertility, not by what it is, but how it conditions the soil. Calcium
Sulfate could be regarded as a plant "fertilizer" because it's already in a water soluble form. When dissolved it's immediately available to the plant. It doesn't require the presence of microbes for it's purpose. It doesn't cook in this regard, just takes time to fully dissolve.

There most certainly is sodium in a natural setting. There's a bunch in animal waste for instance, wild or domesticated. There's heaps of dispersive soil around. Naturally formed, or man made. Heaps of naturally formed, dispersive clay around.

OldMedUser said:

No sodium containing compounds are used in any fertilizers.

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I don't at all doubt your experience, but that's a very bold claim.

Maybe we're confusing what each other perceives to be an organic fertilizer. Generally anything that's in a salt, or concentrate form i'm skeptical about the practices that have gone into producing it.

Sodium Nitrate is approved by the U.S National Organic Program as a plant fertilizer. That to me is all kinds of fucked up.

I hear what you're saying, i just think we view it a little differently.

Aussieaceae said:

Well without snobbing you off, i agree, the debate gets old. Just like some vegans, some organic growers and smokers ruin it for everyone else.

Already said i'll happily smoke either. But presented with the opportunity, i know what i'll choose everytime.

Snobbishness exists in both camps.

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I don't find you in particular being snobby about it. I'm referring more to how Dr. Crane types act about wine tasting. Some organic growers are zealots about it and I'm sure if they talked in person the same way they post they'd be frothing at the mouth. Like born-again non-smokers or alcoholics in AA. You just got to get away from folks like that!

When it comes to nutes and grow techniques there are so many and it does none of any good to argue about which is best but seems to be a constant subject prone to rants and raves. Each to their own I say. I do much better with hydro where some are total losers at it but can grow killer pot with organic methods which I do lousy at. I was damn good in the lab and I'm not a bad cook, (Thanks Mom!), so with hydro being all measuring and chemistry that falls into my area of expertise.

Aussieaceae said:

There most certainly is sodium in a natural setting. There's a bunch in animal waste for instance, wild or domesticated. There's heaps of dispersive soil around. Naturally formed, or man made. Heaps of naturally formed, dispersive clay around.

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Very little sodium in animal waste and I'll attach a 1 page pdf file as I can't do a copy/paste with those. Highest is iron and aluminum of all things. The iron I can understand but Al? Na comes in as the lowest along with Mg.

I had to look up dispersive soils and it seems that's not a thing us growers need to concern ourselves with. It needs lots of sodium ions in clay-based soils to become a problem and as I mentioned before inland farmers aren't likely to encounter it in many places. Nearer bodies of salt water is where it's mostly found.

A small quote from Wikipedia

"Dispersive soils are more common in older landscapes where leaching and illuviation processes have had more time to work. A source of sodium is also required. Possible sources can include weathering from soil parent materials or wind-blown salt deposition. Sodium ions are highly mobile in the soil solution and so they accumulate in the lower parts of the landscape."

Aussieaceae said:

I don't at all doubt your experience, but that's a very bold claim.

Maybe we're confusing what each other perceives to be an organic fertilizer. Generally anything that's in a salt, or concentrate form i'm skeptical about the practices that have gone into producing it.

Sodium Nitrate is approved by the U.S National Organic Program as a plant fertilizer. That to me is all kinds of fucked up.

I hear what you're saying, i just think we view it a little differently.

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It seems I was wrong to say sodium isn't in ANY fertilizers as you are correct that it is used as a nitrogen source and approved for organic use by the US National Organic Program as you say. Learn something new every day. No sodium in any of the nutes I use or were in the bilk nutrients where I worked. It's a powerful oxidizer and used to make gunpowder.

Sounds f'ed up to me too but it's an abundant mineral in some places and I'm sure potassium nitrate would be used instead if it were as widely available. The guy I bought my house from used potassium chloride in the water softener instead of the usual sodium chloride as it was better for the garden. I put that damn thing on bypass not long after moving in and will use the 150L brine tank for RO water storage once I get one in here which might be tomorrow. Slap it on the VISA card dammit!

Aqua Man said:

If it works great. But let's be honest advancements are not made keeping things simple. Understanding processes aids in everything there is about growing or anything for that matter. Simple can work no doubt but if we just kept everything simple hydro wouldn't even exist.

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I guess for me hydro is pretty simple.

hellmutt bones said:

Tham OP you where like the noob and 1/2 back then. That's why I'll give you a pass for starting shit back then. But why rehash it?? OP common man! All the bro Science wont help us now...

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I was young and had a bad expirence back then. I came across this post and needed to fix it. Im still not exactly sure how this site works. I guess everyone can see everything that is posted? I had no idea anyone would even see my response. Got to admit tho for a post more than half a decade old it has sure picked up some steam. Debating is good. Even tho the thing that would make one better than the other is the money that it will make. Hydro will yield more period. Dirt may taste a bit better but idk some say not true. I know a clone grown in soil. Will appear smell and tast different from same clone grown in hydro. I have done it. Hydro nugs more dense than the soil and had a crazy smell where soil smelled more sweet and was more fluffy.

Common OP. Say something else. Like about fem seeds vs regular and shit

Honestly the best weed I ever grew was Grape Punch from BOG in my DWC. I’ve grown a shit load of bomb ass strains in coco, soil mixtures, peat moss, no till..
Best strains were Grape Punch in DWC and Lavender Trainwreck no till outdoor and Lemon OG x Sour D no till and Blue Dream in FFOF and coco with GH nutes.
The genetics and the environment are key plus drying properly.

I haven’t grown Hydroponically in years and been thinking of going back and pretty excited to go back. Yea checking meters sucks but it’s not rocket science. The biggest growers in the game growing the best weed are growing with giant rockwolll cubes on flood tables with salt nutes. Or flower beds with organic additives or “organic” bottled nutes.