Jacks (JR Peters) nutrients

At the risk of asking a dumb question here…… let’s say I want to use the 321 recipe as an example. Can I adjust the levels as long as I keep the ratios rather than mixing full strength & then watering down?

So, for instance for half a gallon 1.5, 1, 0.5 or for 2 gallons 6, 4, 2?

Appreciate the ec on those examples would be way to high. I was thinking I could just break the 321 recipe down into a feed chart from 5% of 321 all the way up to 100% so I could just use the fertiliser I needed to hit the desired ec for the amount of water I was using?

Thanks in advance for any feedback

kushedy said:

Can I adjust the levels as long as I keep the ratios rather than mixing full strength & then watering down?

Click to expand...

Yes. The point is to mix to the proper ratio irregardless if that's too strong or not, then to dilute that mix with water till the desired EC is reached. As long as you mix the proper ratio, it doesn't matter how much water is also mixed in as the ratio will remain the same regardless of what the EC is.

Cheers@Skybound420

Mathematically I could not see any reason that would not be the case but not knowing anything about chemistry or hydobuddy etc I thought I would ask the question.

kushedy said:

Cheers@Skybound420

Mathematically I could not see any reason that would not be the case but not knowing anything about chemistry or hydobuddy etc I thought I would ask the question.

Click to expand...

HydroBuddy is a game changer. I had the app for years, but before getting into dry nutes, I never had a reason to learn how to use it. Now that I did, it takes all of the guess work out. I can mix and test products before I buy them, and when used with im4satori's nutrient ranges, I can adjust the ratios +/- to see how different concoctions result when all mixed together.

Side note, I tried to track down how much sodium might be in the Dissolvine, and though there is a lot of info about the product on their website (akzoNobel), I couldn't find much in the way of how much sodium is inherent. I found (THIS) article about sodium and how 12 ppm of sodium is the threshold of when problems begin. Considering that the Dissolvine product has 25ppm of calcium per gram/gallon, I'd have a difficult time believing that there'll be roughly half as much sodium as there is calcium, but that still leaves ample room for failure so I'll keep researching. I'm also considering that the product would only be used between weeks5-8 more or less, so potential exposure is also minimized.

copy paste;
Use this product to suplement the calcium in your nutrient solution that is supplied by calcium nitrate. One gram of Dissolvine E-Ca-10 per gallon final volume nutrient solution provides approximately 25ppm calcium and 32 ppm Sodium.


https://customhydronutrients.com/calcium-edta-chelated-97-20-pound-bucket-p-764.html?cPath=1_47_452&zenid=44ffa2a794be7db2a31627d7212fb785

the first sentence is a copy and paste from the page linked above, this is where I buy most of my supplies and Brien (the guy who runs the site) is always on top of stuff so...... but im sure if you open up the msds or label links on this page youll find it in more detail

personally I prefer to add as little sodium as possible preferably none... I likely getting a small/safe amount from the source water already and micro nutrients sometimes contain tiny amounts

I'm definitely going to put this one in the brain fart category because I read that description 106 times and never comprehended the reference to sodium. Looks like I'm awaiting a 1 pound paper weight.

Before I make another panic purchase, I'd like to know what you think about ((THIS)) product? It's only 5% calcium, but it seems they chelated the bullshit out of it to ensure max availability. When you reduce your CalNit, how much supplemental Ca do you need to put back in?

Skybound420 said:

I'm definitely going to put this one in the brain fart category because I read that description 106 times and never comprehended the reference to sodium. Looks like I'm awaiting a 1 pound paper weight.

Before I make another panic purchase, I'd like to know what you think about ((THIS)) product? It's only 5% calcium, but it seems they chelated the bullshit out of it to ensure max availability. When you reduce your CalNit, how much supplemental Ca do you need to put back in?

Click to expand...

depends on how much your reducing I suppose

as for the calcium product

id have to spend some time to say... much of this info I read so may years ago and im sure ive not retained everything ive read but I have read the material enough times to have some recollection to some degree

calcium carbonate may also have some limitations for use... im not exactly sure what they are but I suspect the exist because its listed in literature I have and referenced about source water quality guidelines
its several pages long and I will copy paste a section to show what im referring to

having said that I think this product is useful, I think but im not positive, but I think calmag also has a portion of calcium carbonate
so im not trying to drive you from it as its probably viable to a degree




Table 7.1 Maximum Mineral Concentrations for Irrigation Water Used in


Rockwool Culture

Element/Ion Maximum Concentration (mg/L, ppm)

Chloride (Cl) 50 to 100

Sodium (Na) 30 to 50

Carbonate (CO3) 4.0

Boron (B) 0.7

Iron (Fe) 1.0

Manganese (Mn) 1.0

Zinc (Zn) 1.0

Source: Verwer, F.L. and Wellman, J.J.C., 1980, in Fifth International Congress on Soilless

Culture, International Society for Soilless Culture, Wageningen, The Netherlands

Table 7.4 Common Compounds and Elements and the Maximum Levels


Allowable in Water for General Hydroponic Use

Element Concentration, mg/L (ppm)

Boron (B) <1

Calcium (Ca) <200

Carbonates (CO3) <60

Chloride (Cl) <70

Magnesium (Mg) <60

Sodium (Na) <180(??? I question if this is a typo in the book, I suspect its meant to say 80)

Zinc (Zn) <1

Source: Smith, R., 1999, The Growing Edge 11(1):14–16.


Table 7.3 Suitability of Water for Irrigating Potted Plants


Water

Classification

Electric

Conductance

(mmho/cm)

Total Dissolved Solids

(Salts), mg/L, ppm

Sodium (% of

Total Solids)

Boron (mg/L,

ppm)

Excellent <0.25 <175 <20 <0.33

Good 0.25 to 0.75 175 to 525 20 to 40 0.33 to 0.67

Permissible 0.75 to 2.0 525 to 1400 40 to 60 0.67 to 1.00

Doubtful 2.0 to 3.0 1400 to 2100 60 to 80 1.00 to 1.25

Unsuitable >3.0 >210 >80 >1.25

Source: Waters, W.E., Geraldson, C.M., and Woltz, S.S., 1972, The Interpretation of Soluble

Salt Tests and Soil Analysis by Different Procedures, AREC Mimeo Report GC-1972,

Bradenton, FL.

sodium


Excellent <20


Good20 to 40

Permissible 40 to 60

Doubtful 60 to 80

Unsuitable >80

so the copy and paste didn't show the info clearly but this is the reference info you need on the sodium product..but without knowing the amount of sodium in the source water its hard to know whats safe...unless your using straight RO water then maybe you can get some of the calcium from that product but personally id figure out something else

im4satori said:

as for the calcium product

id have to spend some time to say... much of this info I read so may years ago and im sure ive not retained everything ive read but I have read the material enough times to have some recollection to some degree

calcium carbonate may also have some limitations for use... im not exactly sure what they are but I suspect the exist because its listed in literature I have and referenced about source water quality guidelines
its several pages long and I will copy paste a section to show what im referring to

having said that I think this product is useful, I think but im not positive, but I think calmag also has a portion of calcium carbonate
so im not trying to drive you from it as its probably viable to a degree




Table 7.1 Maximum Mineral Concentrations for Irrigation Water Used in


Rockwool Culture

Element/Ion Maximum Concentration (mg/L, ppm)

Chloride (Cl) 50 to 100

Sodium (Na) 30 to 50

Carbonate (CO3) 4.0

Boron (B) 0.7

Iron (Fe) 1.0

Manganese (Mn) 1.0

Zinc (Zn) 1.0

Source: Verwer, F.L. and Wellman, J.J.C., 1980, in Fifth International Congress on Soilless

Culture, International Society for Soilless Culture, Wageningen, The Netherlands

Table 7.4 Common Compounds and Elements and the Maximum Levels


Allowable in Water for General Hydroponic Use

Element Concentration, mg/L (ppm)

Boron (B) <1

Calcium (Ca) <200

Carbonates (CO3) <60

Chloride (Cl) <70

Magnesium (Mg) <60

Sodium (Na) <180

Zinc (Zn) <1

Source: Smith, R., 1999, The Growing Edge 11(1):14–16.


Table 7.3 Suitability of Water for Irrigating Potted Plants


Water

Classification

Electric

Conductance

(mmho/cm)

Total Dissolved Solids

(Salts), mg/L, ppm

Sodium (% of

Total Solids)

Boron (mg/L,

ppm)

Excellent <0.25 <175 <20 <0.33

Good 0.25 to 0.75 175 to 525 20 to 40 0.33 to 0.67

Permissible 0.75 to 2.0 525 to 1400 40 to 60 0.67 to 1.00

Doubtful 2.0 to 3.0 1400 to 2100 60 to 80 1.00 to 1.25

Unsuitable >3.0 >210 >80 >1.25

Source: Waters, W.E., Geraldson, C.M., and Woltz, S.S., 1972, The Interpretation of Soluble

Salt Tests and Soil Analysis by Different Procedures, AREC Mimeo Report GC-1972,

Bradenton, FL.

Click to expand...

1972? I have grown bud in Bradenton FL before. Left some myakka gold and afgani seed in a freezer there
Go Seminoles!

#OffTopic

Cx2H said:

1972? I have grown bud in Bradenton FL before. Left some myakka gold and afgani seed in a freezer there
Go Seminoles!

#OffTopic

Click to expand...

ya that's just showing where the writer of the book referenced his info from

im4satori said:

sodium


Excellent <20


Good20 to 40

Permissible 40 to 60

Doubtful 60 to 80

Unsuitable >80

so the copy and paste didn't show the info clearly but this is the reference info you need on the sodium product..but without knowing the amount of sodium in the source water its hard to know whats safe...unless your using straight RO water then maybe you can get some of the calcium from that product but personally id figure out something else

Click to expand...

looking at this and knowing your using an RO id say your calcium product could be iused at least for a portion of your needs, youll just need to determine what your max is

I should also point out this book and these figures are based on produce like tomatoes and cucumbers which will allow for much higher EC or salinity than MJ which has very low nutrient requirments comparatively.. so while the book says 40ppm sodium is in the good range that doesn't mean mj wont be senstitive to those amounts just because tomatoes aren't

but ultimately itll all depend on your source water and how far yo want to push the limits

if your in coco id not use at all!!!! in soil ya maybe a little

im4satori said:

looking at this and knowing your using an RO id say your calcium product could be iused at least for a portion of your needs, youll just need to determine what your max is

I should also point out this book and these figures are based on produce like tomatoes and cucumbers which will allow for much higher EC or salinity than MJ which has very low nutrient requirments comparatively.. so while the book says 40ppm sodium is in the good range that doesn't mean mj wont be senstitive to those amounts just because tomatoes aren't

but ultimately itll all depend on your source water and how far yo want to push the limits

if your in coco id not use at all!!!! in soil ya maybe a little

Click to expand...

I think I'm just going to save it as a spare for emergencies (collect dust) and take your other advice and look for a different product that doesn't add sodium. When you referenced calmag in an earlier post, I checked my GH CALiMAGic and it only has 5% Ca and 1.5% Mg. No wonder I had to overdose it by 40% and still saw Ca deficiency throughout. I adapted to abate that deficiency, but only to a more permissible degree. Her daughter in my other bloom is looking that absolute best I've ever accomplished by week 4. Many monster crop-like branches, very leafy, evenly green throughout, no purple stems, she grew through my light fixture, I bent about 6 tops and all 6 corrected themselves and are now pursuing the ceiling again. So far, I am substantially impressed with Jack's overall, but more precisely my augmentation of your 2.4/1.6. Here's a pic of those stats.

Another point to consider about "40ppm" is that we don't know if those numbers encompass every medium, or just soil? I (like you) grow in rockwool, so maybe 50ppm in system A translates to 32 ppm in rockwool? All of my reading is suggesting that improperly managed sodium levels could be catastrophic, so I don't want to learn that lesson the hard way. I'd rather challenge the boundary between slight N toxicity - slight Ca deficiency than kill their potential, or maybe the plants themselves.

I think I'll next try that 5% calcium that is chelated with aminos and test that. If I'm only needing to account for the difference between the normal dose of 15-0-0 and the slightly decreased dose, I think I'll be in good shape. Maybe I'll load up Jack's 3.6, 2.4, 1.1 in HydroBuddy to see what the resulting Ca is. Granted, the varying Ca levels in all of the 321 variations would give me a pretty good idea of what Ca normally would be.

looking at those numbers I can see why your having issues with calcium and probably magnesium also

at 168 K your very high and your also not adding the K your getting from the Si which might put you up to 200ppm depending the the K% in the product idk but you should figure that K from Si into the mix

id like to see the K down below 150ppm max (for me as low as 135ppm) and youll not have issues with calcium or magnesium lockout

everything else looks good imo

you can bring the jacks down at its lowest point id stop at Fe 1.5ppm not less

im4satori said:

looking at those numbers I can see why your having issues with calcium and probably magnesium also

at 168 K your very high and your also not adding the K your getting from the Si which might put you up to 200ppm depending the the K% in the product idk but you should figure that K from Si into the mix

id like to see the K down below 150ppm max (for me as low as 135ppm) and youll not have issues with calcium or magnesium lockout

everything else looks good imo

Click to expand...

FWIW, all of my calcium problems were from when I used GH (2 weeks ago). I used the GH silica in the most recent mix. @2ml/gal, it bumped my meter's ppm up 80. Adding that landed my pH PERFECTLY, right where I want it in the 6-6.2 range. I'll try to massage the ratio a bit more in HB to see if I can lower the K some. Perhaps a touch or two less of MKP? What NPK ratio do you shoot for for bloom? Is it 1-3-4? Also, I'd like your opinion of my late Veg mix? I normally do not exceed 600ppm on my meter while in veg, so this elevated ppm has me on the edge of my seat right now, but those plants are well aged and I think they'll do fine.

hmmm that mix is low on calcium and I still don't see the si built into it

you might just need to not use the si in the reservoir and foliar feed it

im4satori said:

hmmm that mix is low on calcium and I still don't see the si built into it

you might just need to not use the si in the reservoir and foliar feed it

Click to expand...

I didn't use Si in this mix. I normally use Si by mid veg, but I'm still trying to figure out how to achieve a good ratio and still have room left for other things such as Si. Also, I'm not sure how to locate the density for GH or other liquid nutes, so there's no viable way to include Si in with HB's calculations.

Also, I don't have a handy reference for the tolerances in veg like I do for bloom. So for this one, I was just trying to get my NPK near 2-1-3

Bloom Ranges,
N 65-90
P 40 - 65
K 130 - 150
Ca 65 - 90
Mg 40 - 50
Fe 1.3 to 2

Click to expand...

Edit - I assumed it wouldn't be wise to exceed bloom's high N value, for a veg feed.

plug it in as

1.6 grams calnite
0.25 grams mkp
1 gram Epsom
2 grams jack mix

im getting
n92
p40
k133
Ca80
Mg42
Fe1.7