January 6th hearings on Trump's failed insurrection.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

dismiss me as you will, actions speak, words just mislead and misdirect...and i've seen no action.
you tell me to have faith in people who were put in place by those that they are supposed to be investigating...who will eventually be tried by judges hand picked by the trump administration. Who's being childish?

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You have seen no action because grand juries operate in secrecy and that is the stage Jack is at, cleaning out the hold outs and getting to the truth. They are at that stage in Georgia and NY too, grand juries deliver indictments as well as hear witnesses.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

dismiss me as you will, actions speak, words just mislead and misdirect...and i've seen no action.
you tell me to have faith in people who were put in place by those that they are supposed to be investigating...who will eventually be tried by judges hand picked by the trump administration. Who's being childish?

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Me, probably but not for the reason you say.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

dismiss me as you will, actions speak, words just mislead and misdirect...and i've seen no action.
you tell me to have faith in people who were put in place by those that they are supposed to be investigating...who will eventually be tried by judges hand picked by the trump administration. Who's being childish?

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You are justified in your feelings of injustice, justice delayed is justice denied, it has been over two years and an election cycle and still no indictments for those at the top. Garland started at the bottom and cleaned up the rioters and their ringleaders with seditious conspiracy and the J6 panel started at the top and did pretty good, despite not having enough power to get to the bottom of things for the public interest. The DOJ gathered a lot of evidence from the J6 panel, and it informed the public as to what it was all about, because everything the DOJ does is secret until indictment day. Imagine the reaction to charging Trump and others in the GOP without this kind of public background information?

Likewise in Georgia, it will be a public trial on TV and will have a huge public impact as well as provide even more evidence for the federal trials, federal trials are not on TV. Having them slap the cuffs on Donald on TV after conviction will be worth a billion bucks and make the federal convictions so much easier!

Roger A. Shrubber said:

dismiss me as you will, actions speak, words just mislead and misdirect...and i've seen no action.
you tell me to have faith in people who were put in place by those that they are supposed to be investigating...who will eventually be tried by judges hand picked by the trump administration. Who's being childish?

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i'm glad i amuse you. just know that while i may be in the minority in our little echo chamber here, i am not in the minority outside of it. When i talk to people about this, and i do, what i hear the most is two things..."WHEN?" and "NEVER HAPPEN." That is from a wide array of people, republicans and democrats, tourists i happen upon, the other old guys down at the barber shop, the latinos at the bodega across the road, the guys at the book store i go to in knoxville,
I hear "patience." from you Canna, not so much from anyone else i talk to. The "average" person in this area is either hostile to the idea of prosecuting any of them, or despairing of it ever happening. I am far from alone in my feelings. Some of the people i talk to are much more intelligent than i am, much better educated, and most of them, nearly all of them, feel the same way.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i'm glad i amuse you. just know that while i may be in the minority in our little echo chamber here, i am not in the minority outside of it. When i talk to people about this, and i do, what i hear the most is two things..."WHEN?" and "NEVER HAPPEN." That is from a wide array of people, republicans and democrats, tourists i happen upon, the other old guys down at the barber shop, the latinos at the bodega across the road, the guys at the book store i go to in knoxville,
I hear "patience." from you Canna, not so much from anyone else i talk to. The "average" person in this area is either hostile to the idea of prosecuting any of them, or despairing of it ever happening. I am far from alone in my feelings. Some of the people i talk to are much more intelligent than i am, much better educated, and most of them, nearly all of them, feel the same way.

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I am heartened by the little signals, like a Pence subpoena and that man dropping a delay lawsuit after getting fined a million.

I think this is the part of the movie where there is a converging series of weird little seismic disturbances, and nobody is really ready for what they mean.

cannabineer said:

I am heartened by the little signals, like a Pence subpoena and that man dropping a delay lawsuit after getting fined a million.

I think this is the part of the movie where there is a converging series of weird little seismic disturbances, and nobody is really ready for what they mean.

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i sincerely hope you are right.
Not holding my breath, however.
The republicans ARE the seismic disturbances...

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i sincerely hope you are right.
Not holding my breath, however.
The republicans ARE the seismic disturbances...

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last May (?) I wagered on an indictment within one year. I may or may not lose that bet.

The timing is perhaps the less important thing, though it would be really cool if some of the tier-2 actors (Graham, Hawley, Jordan, Abbott et al.) (phone boy!) get hauled before a grand jury before the ‘24 elections.

cannabineer said:

last May (?) I wagered on an indictment within one year. I may or may not lose that bet.

The timing is perhaps the less important thing, though it would be really cool if some of the tier-2 actors (Graham, Hawley, Jordan, Abbott et al.) (phone boy!) get hauled before a grand jury before the ‘24 elections.

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164 days till the end of May...perhaps someone will be indicted in Georgia by then, but i'll bet you a buck on the side that it won't be trump.
Just to be clear, i WANT to lose this argument, i WANT to have to apologize for being an impatient ass...i want to have to come here and eat shit from you and Fog for a few days when you're both proven right...but i'm not stockpiling bread.
And indictments aren't convictions, when convictions start to fly, then i will humbly apologize to both of you publicly....If I'm not dead by then...

Roger A. Shrubber said:

164 days till the end of May...perhaps someone will be indicted in Georgia by then, but i'll bet you a buck on the side that it won't be trump.
Just to be clear, i WANT to lose this argument, i WANT to have to apologize for being an impatient ass...i want to have to come here and eat shit from you and Fog for a few days when you're both proven right...but i'm not stockpiling bread yet.

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On the one hand, not counting one’s chickens … is simple prudence.

On the other, you know I totally empathize with your impatience. However, letting it breed despair is not just a bad idea, but contagious. It is way too early to come to a conclusion imo.

The Proud Boys seeking to subpoena that man is just delicious.

cannabineer said:

On the one hand, not counting one’s chickens … is simple prudence.

On the other, you know I totally empathize with your impatience. However, letting it breed despair is not just a bad idea, but contagious. It is way too early to come to a conclusion imo.

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but that is what Fog and DIY are doing...They assert that the DOJ WILL do this, that Garland WILL do that, that the incarceration of not just trump but all of his cohorts is a foregone conclusion...If it is too early to come to a conclusion, why are they coming to conclusions?

Roger A. Shrubber said:

but that is what Fog and DIY are doing...They assert that the DOJ WILL do this, that Garland WILL do that, that the incarceration of not just trump but all of his cohorts is a foregone conclusion...If it is too early to come to a conclusion, why are they coming to conclusions?

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I’ve called DIY on it. I’ve also stopped watching Meidas and other irritatingly speculative content providers.

Fog is not really doing the same imo. He reacts when impatience steps over into defeatism.

On the gripping hand, all we have is what gets to the media. It’s a sure bet that that isn’t the whole or maybe the real story. The radio silence on the mystery individuals in the Georgia report is pretty impressive, and another suggestion of unseen forward momentum.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

but that is what Fog and DIY are doing...They assert that the DOJ WILL do this, that Garland WILL do that, that the incarceration of not just trump but all of his cohorts is a foregone conclusion...If it is too early to come to a conclusion, why are they coming to conclusions?

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So what happens to Garland if he doesn't? As I have stated these matters with Trump and other top dogs are currently before grand juries, state and federal, and they indict people in these matters. All we can do is infer with the DOJ, they only speak in court, but indictments at this point are up to grand juries, not Garland and not even Jack.

DIY-HP-LED said:

So what happens to Garland if he doesn't? As I have stated these matters with Trump and other top dogs are currently before grand juries, state and federal, and they indict people in these matters. All we can do is infer with the DOJ, they only speak in court, but indictments at this point are up to grand juries, not Garland and not even Jack.

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Garland could be asked to resign, but if he declines to resign, they would have to impeach him.
If they went that way...I personally don't see Biden doing that, even though it would be shooting himself in the leg to leave Garland in office after he proved himself that incompetent.
SOMETIMES grand juries indict people, and sometimes they don't. NOTHING about this case is normal, sedition is not normal.
You cannot infer when there is no information being offered, you can only speculate.
Even indictments are no guarantee that there will be convictions. Juries have to hear these cases, and juries are made up of human beings, who are not known for being governed by logic. One magat on a jury is a hung jury, two magats on a jury is a disaster...The selection process for jurors, if there ever is one, will take weeks if not months, just for that one preliminary step...Both sides will be hyper particular, and will disallow as many of their opponents jurors as possible.
If indictments came out today, Most if not all of them wouldn't see the inside of a court room for the rest of this year, and possibly a good chunk of next.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

but that is what Fog and DIY are doing...They assert that the DOJ WILL do this, that Garland WILL do that, that the incarceration of not just trump but all of his cohorts is a foregone conclusion...If it is too early to come to a conclusion, why are they coming to conclusions?

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newp, I'm as irritated by DIY's fantastic imaginings as anybody. I simply have a viewpoint that comes out of my own personal experience. I've scaled back my duties and only working part time now but for decades, I've led a life that makes me sympathetic to others who are leading large and complex efforts.

In my role as lead reliability engineer in high tech product development for a large corporation, it's my job to sign off on a product release. I've been subjected to the kind of complaints you and others make who can't understand why it's taking so long and why its so complicated when they think its so simple. (people always think reliability is a simple thing to assess) I've learned to shrug most of it off and am occasionally disgusted by people who complain its taking too long and afterward will want my head if I'm wrong. It is also appropriate that the person making the decision be held accountable for it. I've been falsely accused of ulterior motives for taking a longer than people would like. But no, it's always a matter of balancing risk and reward. I've seen managers, sometimes CEOs fired when the wrong call to release a product from R&D was made with consequences of share prices falling and mass layoffs. A few suicides too. They weren't my bad calls but I sure as hell studied up on what went wrong and why.

What I've learned along the way is, the person leading an investigation NEVER has enough information when it's time to make one. It's always a judgement call at the end of the day. As a result, it is completely appropriate that the lead investigator should withhold their decision until it is time to make it. Everything else is chatter.

In the case of prosecuting a former president, I'm withholding my judgement until the end of the story. From all I've read, the DA in charge of this investigation is balancing risks and reward appropriately in good faith.

Not my job, not my monkey. So, I watch, gather information and wait.

Fogdog said:

newp, I'm as irritated by DIY's fantastic imaginings as anybody. I simply have a viewpoint that comes out of my own personal experience. I've scaled back my duties and only working part time now but for decades, I've led a life that makes me sympathetic to others who are leading large and complex efforts.

In my role as lead reliability engineer in high tech product development for a large corporation, it's my job to sign off on a product release. I've been subjected to the kind of complaints you and others make who can't understand why it's taking so long and why its so complicated when they think its so simple. (people always think reliability is a simple thing to assess) I've learned to shrug most of it off and am occasionally disgusted by people who complain its taking too long and afterward will want my head if I'm wrong. It is also appropriate that the person making the decision be held accountable for it. I've been falsely accused of ulterior motives for taking a longer than people would like. But no, it's always a matter of balancing risk and reward. I've seen managers, sometimes CEOs fired when the wrong call to release a product from R&D was made with consequences of share prices falling and mass layoffs. A few suicides too. They weren't my bad calls but I sure as hell studied up on what went wrong and why. The person leading an investigation NEVER has enough information when it's time to make one. It's always a judgement call at the end of the day. As a result, it is completely appropriate that the lead investigator should withhold their decision until it is time to make it. Everything else is chatter.

In the case of prosecuting a former president, I'm withholding my judgement until the end of the story. From all I've read, the DA in charge of this investigation is balancing risks and reward appropriately in good faith.

Not my job, not my monkey. So, I watch, gather information and wait.

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i suppose i'm operating off of feeling and what little comparative experiences i've had in my life....
Ever get ripped off for weed, or money for weed, before you started growing? you sometimes run into those people, and they always have a story, always have a reason, always promise they'll make it right, but you know they won't, that they're full of shit, and the best you can hope for is to never see them again....This situation feels EXACTLY like that...like we're all being brushed off, avoided, told just enough to placate us....Garland has the same look in his eyes when he makes a statement, (I don't want to be talking to you, but since i have to, here's what you want to hear.")
I sincerely hope that you get to rub this in my face, and soon...but i'm not keeping a towel handy.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

Garland could be asked to resign, but if he declines to resign, they would have to impeach him.
If they went that way...I personally don't see Biden doing that, even though it would be shooting himself in the leg to leave Garland in office after he proved himself that incompetent.
SOMETIMES grand juries indict people, and sometimes they don't. NOTHING about this case is normal, sedition is not normal.
You cannot infer when there is no information being offered, you can only speculate.
Even indictments are no guarantee that there will be convictions. Juries have to hear these cases, and juries are made up of human beings, who are not known for being governed by logic. One magat on a jury is a hung jury, two magats on a jury is a disaster...The selection process for jurors, if there ever is one, will take weeks if not months, just for that one preliminary step...Both sides will be hyper particular, and will disallow as many of their opponents jurors as possible.
If indictments came out today, Most if not all of them wouldn't see the inside of a court room for the rest of this year, and possibly a good chunk of next.

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In the interim all we can do is wait and see how it washes out, the pundits are mostly lawyers and some former feds and high DOJ officials, so their opinions carry weight. I tend to look to those I consider experts in the matter and even though Glenn is vehement, he is not wrong about justice delayed. He seems more optimistic lately and wants Donald's and the other's asses as bad as anybody, he is reserving judgement for now and sees things are moving along with Jack and in Georgia. It is not the way he used to business with regular people when he was a federal prosecutor, but we all know politics are at play here too. So, if he is willing to wait and see, so am I, since we all have little choice, but this is one for the history books and will attract interest far into the future, they are filling libraries with books and there will be movies too. Let's hope the saga ends with the bad guys going to jail and the GOP crippled.

DIY-HP-LED said:

US officer fed details to far-right leader before Capitol attack, messages show

Washington court sees string of messages from Shane Lamond to Proud Boys’ Enrique Tarrio in weeks before deadly January 6 riot

www.theguardian.com

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yep, the police officer is suspected of being a double agent for the fascists and gave inside information about the doings of the DOJ. There is more than a whiff of collusion with Proud Boys

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i suppose i'm operating off of feeling and what little comparative experiences i've had in my life....
Ever get ripped off for weed, or money for weed, before you started growing? you sometimes run into those people, and they always have a story, always have a reason, always promise they'll make it right, but you know they won't, that they're full of shit, and the best you can hope for is to never see them again....This situation feels EXACTLY like that...like we're all being brushed off, avoided, told just enough to placate us....Garland has the same look in his eyes when he makes a statement, (I don't want to be talking to you, but since i have to, here's what you want to hear.")
I sincerely hope that you get to rub this in my face, and soon...but i'm not keeping a towel handy.

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Have you already decided that the hearings and investigations are all just for show? That nothing will happen because the fix is in?