Led and hps together

Sif1 said:

Dimensions of the grow. Tents 6/ 3mx 1.5wx2.2h, with a 2.4mx 1.2m table. Best i did with Leds was about 3lb, Best with HPS was 5.3lb that's not bs either.. The best strain was Bruce Banner from ILGM.
Best grow was 1.31 gms per watt.

I have a heap of other Led samples on other computer. Have tried the one you like, but the numbers are the same as the ones in the pics. Oh, i also have tried king stectrum, california lightworks. too many to remember.

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Ok, so to clear things up a lil, I totally Respect that you are speaking from experience. That's a rare quality around here at times.
So from one man with hands on experience to another, do you know the efficiency of the fixtures you used? Looks like cool bar lights but could be cheapies in comparison to what I'm talking about. Is why i ask. If you think Cali Light Works or Spectrum King come even close & your previous work was using that or less then we are talking Apples n Pickles.
My highest GPW has been 2 & just whopped 1.9 (I'm told) from a 12x4.
These lights put out twice as many photons per watt as SE-HPS.
My current area is a 15x13' area with a 2x3' + 4x4' pocket to move a little & equipment.
As many drivers are remote as possible rn.
Admittedly it took me almost 2 yrs to get it down right after the ease of hps & all my bitching & moaning is documented here.
I invented the "Term LedDefficiency" due to my honesty, frustration & the epidemic i saw of new growers or switchers having deficiency issues using the regimen they previously had success with. Almost Everyone in the LED section Hated me for it. But it was the truth.
But you look like you know wazup so all i can say is i recommend trging a new, HE LED Fixture 2.5umol/j + that has a decent spectrum.
Oh, no, i am not trying to sell anything bro.
May sound like it at times because i am personally convinced or know what i am talking about in regards to the topic. From HOE i the garden.
I average 24oz. in 5 gall buckets, 28ish oz in 7's. CoCo or Pro-Mix. In Pro-Mix now. X12 plants.
I appreciate CMH & HPS but they just don't put out nearly as much light with nowhere near the uniformity. If your spectrums & efficiencies where not so hot then that may have been why you choose hps?

Sif1 said:

At the end of the day. It it works for you, thats all that matters. Being a Hortilux product i would say they are pretty good, but the price kills it.

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Agreed. I would not pay 1500 to light a 4x4 either & their efficiency #'s are sorta low using unknown diodes & drivers.

Norml56 said:

No. 315 watt CMH isn't close to the output of a 600watt HLG LED light. If I was looking at buying and my choices were the CMH or HLG, I'd personally just buy 2 315watt CMH. Cost of the HLG is around $800. 2 complete CMH setups will run ya around $450, even less if you ditch the reflector and run a vertical bare bulb

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You can DIY it with HLG stuff for the same price point as two 315w cmh setups, similar ppfd.

PJ Diaz said:

You can DIY it with HLG stuff for the same price point as two 315w cmh setups, similar ppfd.

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That isn't an equal comparison tho. CMH is a plug and play set up so IMO you would need to compare it to a plug and play LED.

hybridway2 said:

Ok, so to clear things up a lil, I totally Respect that you are speaking from experience. That's a rare quality around here at times.
So from one man with hands on experience to another, do you know the efficiency of the fixtures you used? Looks like cool bar lights but could be cheapies in comparison to what I'm talking about. Is why i ask. If you think Cali Light Works or Spectrum King come even close & your previous work was using that or less then we are talking Apples n Pickles.
My highest GPW has been 2 & just whopped 1.9 (I'm told) from a 12x4.
These lights put out twice as many photons per watt as SE-HPS.
My current area is a 15x13' area with a 2x3' + 4x4' pocket to move a little & equipment.
As many drivers are remote as possible rn.
Admittedly it took me almost 2 yrs to get it down right after the ease of hps & all my bitching & moaning is documented here.
I invented the "Term LedDefficiency" due to my honesty, frustration & the epidemic i saw of new growers or switchers having deficiency issues using the regimen they previously had success with. Almost Everyone in the LED section Hated me for it. But it was the truth.
But you look like you know wazup so all i can say is i recommend trging a new, HE LED Fixture 2.5umol/j + that has a decent spectrum.
Oh, no, i am not trying to sell anything bro.
May sound like it at times because i am personally convinced or know what i am talking about in regards to the topic. From HOE i the garden.
I average 24oz. in 5 gall buckets, 28ish oz in 7's. CoCo or Pro-Mix. In Pro-Mix now. X12 plants.
I appreciate CMH & HPS but they just don't put out nearly as much light with nowhere near the uniformity. If your spectrums & efficiencies where not so hot then that may have been why you choose hps?

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I agree. Just like I wouldn't remove the CMH from my tent I would never remove the QB 288 boards from my tent. I run 4 independent panels and 4 of the 6 plants in my flower tent pretty much get their own panel and having the ability to dim and or lower/raise the lights is an unbeatable benefit. Especially when heat plays a factor.

Norml56 said:

That isn't an equal comparison tho. CMH is a plug and play set up so IMO you would need to compare it to a plug and play LED.

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Technically that's true, but only technically. I mean you could DIY a CMH light too, but the work which would go into that compared to a HLG DIY kit is much greater, it's also apples and oranges. When you get a CMH light, you have to screw in the bulb, and attach hangers. Is that really that much different than attaching a board to a heatsink and connecting some wires to a driver?

PJ Diaz said:

Technically that's true, but only technically. I mean you could DIY a CMH light too, but the work which would go into that compared to a HLG DIY kit is much greater, it's also apples and oranges. When you get a CMH light, you have to screw in the bulb, and attach hangers. Is that really that much different than attaching a board to a heatsink and connecting some wires to a driver?

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Not even..... Sure you could DIY a CMH, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's a bulb filled with gas and gets much much hotter than a QB. The form factors aren't even remotely similar. It's like comparing apples to watermelons.

Airwalker16 said:

Not even..... Sure you could DIY a CMH, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's a bulb filled with gas and gets much much hotter than a QB. The form factors aren't even remotely similar. It's like comparing apples to watermelons.

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Yep, which is why at the end of the day we're left with comparing [(light-output/watts-consumed/cost-of-grow-light)/(money-spend-on-unit/time-spent-on-setup)]

Airwalker16 said:

Not even..... Sure you could DIY a CMH, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's a bulb filled with gas and gets much much hotter than a QB. The form factors aren't even remotely similar. It's like comparing apples to watermelons.

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I've run every type of LED available, from 1watt diodes, to COB's, and quantum boards.
I've also run CMH, and HPS, over the years.
A "standard" quantum board set up runs significantly hotter than a 315w CMH set up.
I had an HLG 300 QB in a 3x3 tent, with a 6" inline fan for extraction, fresh air getting pumped in, and it was impossible to keep cool.
I added fan, after fan, to try and cool the damn thing but it nearly fried my plants while I tried to figure out the issue.
Having the driver strapped to the back of the light, and no heat sinks, meant a massive amount of heat build up.
Conversely, a 315w CMH, with a remote driver (outside of the tent), has never had that problem in the exact same 3x3 environment.
Plus, CMH has a better spectrum, and naturally includes UV, which leads to more potent meds.
Some say that the amount of UV the CMH gives off is negligible, but the exact same cuts turn out noticeably more potent under my CMH's, compared to my COB's.

I'm not putting anyone down for what light they use to grow, to each their own.
I just prefer to have accurate information available for everyone to base their decisions off of.

Bad Karma said:

I've run every type of LED available, from 1watt diodes, to COB's, and quantum boards.
I've also run CMH, and HPS, over the years.
A "standard" quantum board set up runs significantly hotter than a 315w CMH set up.
I had an HLG 300 QB in a 3x3 tent, with a 6" inline fan for extraction, fresh air getting pumped in, and it was impossible to keep cool.
I added fan, after fan, to try and cool the damn thing but it nearly fried my plants while I tried to figure out the issue.
Having the driver strapped to the back of the light, and no heat sinks, meant a massive amount of heat build up.
Conversely, a 315w CMH, with a remote driver (outside of the tent), has never had that problem in the exact same 3x3 environment.
Plus, CMH has a better spectrum, and naturally includes UV, which leads to more potent meds.
Some say that the amount of UV the CMH gives off is negligible, but the exact same cuts turn out noticeably more potent under my CMH's, compared to my COB's.

I'm not putting anyone down for what light they use to grow, to each their own.
I just prefer to have accurate information available for everyone to base their decisions off of.

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That driver was the culprit. Had you mounted it remotely, outside the tent, it would have been an entirely different story.

Airwalker16 said:

That driver was the culprit. Had you mounted it remotely, outside the tent, it would have been an entirely different story.

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I've run CHM lights with the driver built into the ballast and the heat from those were still manageable in a 3x3.
A driver adds an extra 3-5 degrees of heat when in the tent.
So even if I shaved that full 5 degrees off, the heat from the QB alone, was still too much to handle in my 3x3.
The complete lack of any heat sinks on the HLG 300 QB meant the light fixture alone put out a stifling amount of heat.
All LED grow lights really should have heat sinks and active cooling.
I know it's less profitable for the manufacturer that way but it's much better for the consumer in the end.

Bad Karma said:

I've run every type of LED available, from 1watt diodes, to COB's, and quantum boards.
I've also run CMH, and HPS, over the years.
A "standard" quantum board set up runs significantly hotter than a 315w CMH set up.
I had an HLG 300 QB in a 3x3 tent, with a 6" inline fan for extraction, fresh air getting pumped in, and it was impossible to keep cool.
I added fan, after fan, to try and cool the damn thing but it nearly fried my plants while I tried to figure out the issue.
Having the driver strapped to the back of the light, and no heat sinks, meant a massive amount of heat build up.
Conversely, a 315w CMH, with a remote driver (outside of the tent), has never had that problem in the exact same 3x3 environment.
Plus, CMH has a better spectrum, and naturally includes UV, which leads to more potent meds.
Some say that the amount of UV the CMH gives off is negligible, but the exact same cuts turn out noticeably more potent under my CMH's, compared to my COB's.

I'm not putting anyone down for what light they use to grow, to each their own.
I just prefer to have accurate information available for everyone to base their decisions off of.

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It seems unlikely that you've run every type of LED available. Does CMH really have "a better spectrum"? I'm not so sure about that.

Also, don't you want your environment warmer with LED anyway?

Here's is the measurement difference that will be in play with lights like Hortrilux & Amare or those finally including n/ir & UVA.
As you can see the ppfd #'s are about to change when using Pbfd starts being used.
One thing to keep in mind is the higher the DLI (spectrum related not just time frame) this lowers the intensity needed due to the fuller spectrum accomplishing the same or better results, due to the synergistic effects. In turn will reduce the power usage or pbfd needed. Now we will have the efficient photons as well as a truer full spectrum which provides the higher dli to compensate for the defficencies in typical white leds.
This is why the Bar-8 had the highest DLI ficture rn. Fullest led spectrum available at he time is the reason. Not a false claim.
Cobs will not produce CMH Quality but high dli properly enhanced will with significantly greater photon output.
Im finding divisions covers allow bevto grow much better with the QB elite 96. Took a clouded cover off & that section of the plant paled out n is strunted. Will compound it & re-istall tom before to much damage sets in.
I feel there's ALLOT to be said for diode covers. They seam to prevent the high concentration of raw diodes. It happens on all raw diode white based lights i have.

PJ Diaz said:

It seems unlikely that you've run every type of LED available. Does CMH really have "a better spectrum"? I'm not so sure about that.

Also, don't you want your environment warmer with LED anyway?

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No it does not u till now.
Warmer but not too hot.

PJ Diaz said:

It seems unlikely that you've run every type of LED available. Does CMH really have "a better spectrum"? I'm not so sure about that.

Also, don't you want your environment warmer with LED anyway?

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Yes, CMH does have a better spectrum and naturally includes UV, as stated above.
Yes, LED grow environments should run warmer, like 80-85 degrees.
Not 100+ degrees like the HLG 300 QB caused me.

As for being an LED user, do some deep digging on this site, and you'll see how very wrong you are, sir.
I argued with mod Sunni until she gave us this very LED subform in 2010/2011.
I helped develop the original lights, and was a rep for, Area 51 LED's on this forum for years.
If you still don't believe me, @PSUAGRO. can you vouch for me, pretty please?

Hey, I just found some of my old blurple pics, too!
These are Subcool's Rippa Bubba under some ProSource LED's in late 2012.

I've heard the opposite from many people, but have never used a CMH myself so I really couldn't know for sure one at or the other.

Bad Karma said:

Yes, CMH does have a better spectrum and naturally includes UV, as stated above.
Yes, LED grow environments should run warmer, like 80-85 degrees.
Not 100+ degrees like the HLG 300 QB caused me.

As for being an LED user, do some deep digging on this site, and you'll see how very wrong you are, sir.
I argued with mod Sunni until she gave us this very LED subform in 2010/2011.
I helped develop the original lights, and was a rep for, Area 51 LED's on this forum for years.
If you still don't believe me, @PSUAGRO. can you vouch for me, pretty please?

Hey, I just found some of my old blurple pics, too!
These are Subcool's Rippa Bubba under some ProSource LED's in late 2012.
View attachment 4518080
View attachment 4518082
View attachment 4518081

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Nice! You an OG!
Difference is now, led puts out twice a much light & better distribution. Sure, most la j that cnh spectrum but the double photons of decent spectrums more then make o fot it in yeilds with equivalent qualiy & better gow w/o giving up any gpsq' probably gain.
They have leds now with cmh spectrum w/o the spikes, 2.6 umol/j instead of 1.8. Lotta extra light per watt, add a bar design to that n youll change your mind im pretty sure.

hybridway2 said:

Nice! You an OG!
Difference is now, led puts out twice a much light & better distribution. Sure, most la j that cnh spectrum but the double photons of decent spectrums more then make o fot it in yeilds with equivalent qualiy & better gow w/o giving up any gpsq' probably gain.
They have leds now with cmh spectrum w/o the spikes, 2.6 umol/j instead of 1.8. Lotta extra light per watt, add a bar design to that n youll change your mind im pretty sure.

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I warned you about Scammie in the beginning and you didn’t want to listen then.
So don’t go being all buddy-buddy with me now.
You know what makes my plants grow the best?
I let you in on a little secret, it’s not numbers, or charts.
Companies, and shills like you, can spout all the data they want.
I actually buy lights, and try them out, letting my plants decide what they like best.
According to my plants CMH reigns supreme in my garden.
They also like the COB’s I’m running from Tasty, and Timber.
The QB light from HGL, not so much, that’s why it was returned for a full refund.
Please, if you’re going to try and tell I’m behind the times, or don’t know what I’m talking about, you’ve got the wrong guy.

Bad Karma said:

I warned you about Scammie in the beginning and you didn’t want to listen then.
So don’t go being all buddy-buddy with me now.
You know what makes my plants grow the best?
I let you in on a little secret, it’s not numbers, or charts.
Companies, and shills like you, can spout all the data they want.
I actually buy lights, and try them out, letting my plants decide what they like best.
According to my plants CMH reigns supreme in my garden.
They also like the COB’s I’m running from Tasty, and Timber.
The QB light from HGL, not so much, that’s why it was returned for a full refund.
Please, if you’re going to try and tell I’m behind the times, or don’t know what I’m talking about, you’ve got the wrong guy.

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@Bad Karma

Good to see you around again - been a long hiatus since the "early days". And yes, for those that aren't aware, @Bad Karma was very instrumental in the testing and trials/tribulations of early LED tech. Many thanks to him, and all those involved in the past, present and future. With LED technology changing rapidly we need more folks such as yourself putting the tech through it's paces.

Take care, and stay safe and healthy.

Dan

PJ Diaz said:

Technically that's true, but only technically. I mean you could DIY a CMH light too, but the work which would go into that compared to a HLG DIY kit is much greater, it's also apples and oranges. When you get a CMH light, you have to screw in the bulb, and attach hangers. Is that really that much different than attaching a board to a heatsink and connecting some wires to a driver?

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IMO yes, it is the difference between DIY and plug and play. I don't see anyone claiming they built a CMH because they screwed in the bulb...