nc208
Well-Known Member
Lol now you blame digikey.
LED bulbs for plant growth, which is best?
- Thread starter BobCajun
- Start date
CobKits
Well-Known Member
well that is generally the cheaper route. smaller cobs driven softer are generally more efficient
keep in mind that most growers use cobs well below the power they were designed for. and due to thermal limitations they all start to converge at lower currents
you can double your cost of cob and only gain a few percent in efficiency. two smaller cobs at the same cost as one larger cob generally throw more lumen per watt overall (and have better coverage)
CobKits
Well-Known Member
ive only ever heard good things about rapidled but if they say citizens are "entry level" thats laughable. as stated they make a wider variety of chips than any manufacturer including 3 models which are more efficient than veroC
well and case size/footprint for thermal dissipation. vero29 B C and D are all same foot print, vero 29 and 18 are not.
but yes C is more efficient than B and D because it has more diodes and at a given chip wattage there is less current per diode
this is correct
3618 gen 6
3618 gen 5
1825 gen 6
all more efficient than veroC at any given current
vero C efficiency curve is almost identical to an 1825 gen 5, they fall right on top of each other at all currents
gen 6s can do 150C tj and 120C case temp. i think thats the highest out there and well above our application,.i have run 3618s at 420W on a $15 mechatronics iceled just for the hell of it. its plenty stable
Enigma
Well-Known Member
The latest 1825 and 3618.
From what I've seen, I wasn't impressed by the numbers and given the constraint of passively cooling only, I made bed with Bridgelux.
If I am wrong, I want to know.
My goal is to do the very most with the very least to keep power consumption, space and cost to a minimum.
Cost can go up if the efficiency is there on lighting.
@CobKits
From what I've seen, I wasn't impressed by the numbers and given the constraint of passively cooling only, I made bed with Bridgelux.
If I am wrong, I want to know.
My goal is to do the very most with the very least to keep power consumption, space and cost to a minimum.
Cost can go up if the efficiency is there on lighting.
@CobKits
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nfhiggs
Well-Known Member
Hmmm.... Didn't you just say the Vero C was superior because "higher lumens at the same efficiency is better"? You seem to want to go both ways here. Either you are willing to pay more for the higher efficiency ("Cost can go up if the efficiency is there on lighting") or you're not. Now I'm not sure which school you are in - higher intensity or distributed light?
Frankly if you're going to be doing a vertical setup like you're talking about in the other thread, passive/active becomes moot if you have a big ass fan at the bottom blowing upwards (through your heatsinks) - its already active cooling.
You can run the 3618 at 100W instead of the 168W and get 170-180 l/W. Get it down around 70W (passive cooling range) you're probably pushing close to 200 l/W - isn't 25-30% higher efficiency you get at that range worth the higher per light cost? Cobby has tested a bunch of these different chips and could probably tell you exactly what you can get for given wattage in terms of l/W.
Enigma
Well-Known Member
From what I can find the 3618 is $100 a chip.
The 1825 is on sale right now, I don't know how long that will last and I'm not sure which chip is $35.
From the data sheet, the 1825 produces slightly more (~500 lm) at 2.25 A? With about 140 lm/W.
The V29C is at 1710 mA and 155 lm/W, at 2565 mA it is producing 5,000 more lumens at 141 lm/W.
I don't know the headroom for the Citizen.
At the sale price I would say it could be an option if it performs well passively air-cooled and the driver cost isn't very high.
@Rahz
I wonder, what would be the output and efficacy of the V29C actively air-cooled at 2.25 A?
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Photon Flinger
Well-Known Member
For what it is worth, the main benefit of the Veros 29 SE is that they don't need an extra holder and use push in connectors rather than having to solder.
Plus you can get them easily in Canada without having to pay border fees.
I don't think there is an appreciable difference in the results between manufacturers worthwhile to banter over.
nfhiggs
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure which 1825 data sheet you are looking at, but from the 140 l/w figure it sounds like you're still looking at the gen 5's. If the last 4 digits in the part number are not M2-F1, or M4-F1 stop looking. Oh, and Digikey SUCKS for good Citi COB's. Their prices are ridiculous on the high powered ones.
Look HERE
That's the CLU058-1825, latest gen in 3000K, 161 l/W at 115W (2.25A x 51.1V), 18,565 lm @ Tj =85C In stock for $36 and change. Cobby might even have them for a few bucks less.
Now with the Vero 29 (P/N BXRC-30E10K0-C-7X) to get to 161 l/W you'll need to drop your current from 1710 to around 1500 - a little more than midway between 1710 and 1140 - call it 100W. 16,100 - 2500 fewer lumens. Now here is what REALLY going to piss you off. That number is not realistic. Citi rated their chip above at a Tj of 85C - a real world number. Look closely at the Vero 29's chart again and find the number they are using to derive the 155 l/W figure from. Look at the header of that column. It says "Tc = 25C". You'll never in your life see a Tc of 25C on a 100+ watt chip without water or peltier cooling. The real world temp is 85C - which is the number in the NEXT column. 16,546 is the "real world" lumen output of the Vero 29C at 1710 mA, 118.7W. Do the math. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 139 l/W is what you are REALLY getting at 118W. If Citi were to use the 25C Tj number for their efficiency calc, they would be rated at 176 l/W. So, TBH, the Vero's ratings are rather inflated. And yes, I am disappointed to find that out myself.
If I drive the Citi 1825 hard enough to get it down to 139, I'm looking at 4500 mA and around 240W. That's around 34,000 lm. Twice the output of the Vero 29C. Max current on the 1825 is 5750 mA. The highest current on the Veros chart is 3420 mA, but they don't seem to say whether that's the max rating or not..
If I ever get around to upgrading my $2 COBs to high end COBs, Citzen 1825 will definitely be the ones I'll be looking for.
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nfhiggs
Well-Known Member
You may have been using the 85C number for the total lumens, but you were using the Vero's 25C/155 l/W figure. Citi doesn't use 25C for their l/W calc, they use 85C. Its not readily apparent from their tables until you actually do the calculations. Your comparisons were apples to oranges with the l/W figures. If you are going to compare l/W you should do so at the same temps. At 25C the Vero 29s are 155 l/W and the Citi Gen 6's are 171 are virtually the same wattage. And at 85C it's 139 l/W for the Vero and 161l/W for the Citi. No matter how you slice it the Citi chips are not inferior to the Veros in any way.I don't have the newest sheets, just what I found for sale.
I'm looking at the 85° C figures, I'm more than aware.
All of the comparisons were done at 85° C.
I still think I made out for what I have.
You like yours, I like mine.
Both are good chips. All of the major manufacturs - Citi, Bridgelux, Luminus and Cree make some very good chips None of their flagship products are "junk" or "inferior" or "entry level".
Unit Farm System Supply
Well-Known Member
whitebb2727
Well-Known Member
I'm moving some stuff around and will be starting the auto grow in the next couple days.Stoked on ur growing under UFO80LED.
Unit Farm System Supply
Well-Known Member
subbed ur thread https://www.rollitup.org/t/unit-farm-ufo-80.948607/#post-13778494. wait & see ufo80led makes a difference
@whitebb2727
Randomblame
Well-Known Member
I will only quote your apology and forget the remaining insults, mate.... and apologize.
It seems that you have learned the lesson now, slowly but finally, Lol!
No offense...
Enigma
Well-Known Member
I will only quote your apology and forget the remaining insults, mate.
It seems that you have learned the lesson now, slowly but finally, Lol!
No offense...
I NEVER insulted you, that is not in my nature.
From what I can see, I can purchase two V29Cs for one 1825.
From what I can see, I can purchase three Vero29Cs for the price of one 3618.
That's two to three times without taking into account being able to push the Vero29C to 1400 mA, passively.
Funny how you take my words OUT of context.
People seem to like Citizen, from what I'm seeing I like Bridgelux.
That could change in a year or more as technology advances.
Right now, for me, it's Vero or nothing.
Enigma
Well-Known Member
I will only quote your apology and forget the remaining insults, mate.
It seems that you have learned the lesson now, slowly but finally, Lol!
No offense...
I went back and carefully read my prior post, not a single insult in the bunch of words I chose to use.
Given the fact that I never insulted you, you claim I insulted you and you believe it.
You are a sociopath.
Furthermore, you intend to spread misinformation about me in an attempt to slander my name.
I no longer respect your trust you.
nc208
Well-Known Member
I went back and carefully read my prior post, not a single insult in the bunch of words I chose to use.
Given the fact that I never insulted you, you claim I insulted you and you believe it.
You are a sociopath.
Furthermore, you intend to spread misinformation about me in an attempt to slander my name.
I no longer respect your trust you.
Just an FYI this can be taken as an insult, you are insinuating he needs colorful pics and graphs to understand data.If you can understand all of those numbers without a colourful graph then you will simply concede my point and apologize.
Now don't you think you've derailed this thread enough from its original topic of the best LED bulb.
and you said insults are not your nature but you clearly just called him a sociopath, perhaps you need to look in the mirror.
Now let this thread die already.
nfhiggs
Well-Known Member
I agree - the comment was clearly meant to demean the opposing side in the discussion.