LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

BlueB

Active Member
I'm kinda slackin on the pics because I'm having trouble getting good shots along the way and then I miss my opportunity... but, after I pulled 7 ounces early just before christmas, (whoops, should have let them go! newb) I ended up pulling another 3 zips off the bottom buds which I let mature past the others... (which matured too far and some hermi'd--whoops! newb!) that totals 10 zips off 430 watts... so at least I exceeded the famed .5g/w aim. AND, this was my first time growing buds, and there were definitely health problems with the plants that had nothing to do with lighting, so I feel like I got some really good results all things considered. Oh, and the buds are primo quality, even if some of the plants grew out airier than I'd like. Some grew out damn near rock hard buds, even the small ones at the bottoms of the stems. And everything was absolutely covered in crystals.

They're not the prettiest buds in the world, my hackjob post-dry manicure was pretty bad and my photography lacked proper lighting, but, Here's some of the early harvest... chose to leave foliage on while drying... on the upside, I got a nice slow dry and the buds cured great after... on the downside, it's a pain in the ass to trim out foliage-thick buds on the dried buds. Still, the buds were really nice even with the extra leaf, so it might be worth it for the slow cure. Reminder, this is my first grow, this is from bag seed, and was having some health issues when I opted to harvest (hence the funky leaf colors):
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And, I mean, I harvested some too early and some too late, and both were really awesome smoke. Everyone who's tried it has been blown away. Well, the latter stuff is still curing but it is smoothing out nicely and still has a great smell, taste, and even potency, despite being probably a bit over-developed.

Here's a couple shots I snapped while trimming up the later harvest:

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And here's a few shots of the (already jarred) dried buds... they are fluffy but I don't really care, 3 zips is 3 zips and the potency and smell is still great. Sorry, I apparently failed to take pics of the latter crop dried outside of the jars.

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After trimming all the buds from the stems and into the jars, I was left with a huge pile of shake... here's the fat joint I rolled from it, with a few hermi seeds I found in the shake:

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Overall it didn't end up being the quality I wanted, but I blame myself mostly, and newb mistakes. It certainly wasn't the lights!



I think that this method is proven, and no matter how you look at it, it's certainly a worthwhile method. The MAIN reason I use T5 is to keep heat control and fire hazards to a minimum. I might have spent a little more on bulbs than I needed to, but since this is for self-supply I'm not too worried about it overall, it's paying itself off quickly.

Since I timed everything poorly, I ended up taking clones at a time that gave the results no where to go when they were ready... rigged up a CFL-based veg chamber and used that to hold them over for way too long, over a month. Decent lighting, but not enough really. I transplanted each of these into full 5 gallon bags which gave each of them some new space to grow roots... and I think I can make it work despite the stretching because I supercropped everything over and laid it all out horizontally across the chamber... next I'm going to build 3 screens, one for each, which add up to total the footprint of my T5 unit. I will take pics of this process when I get there. Just waiting for some materials to arrive...

One more, Bulb Porn, here's my current setup with +2 bulbs in center under ballast:

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Hoping to greatly exceed my first results now that I have a better idea of how to care for them, better starting soil mix, and a couple extra tubes.... not to mention this time I am SCROGing 3 plants instead of LSTing 7 in the same space... will be interesting to see how it goes...
What was your final bulb mixture that you liked best? I can't find where you list the names and order of the lights in the fixture. Your buds look real nice, it doesn't look like you did anything wrong to me! I've been playing with bulb mixtures for some time now, and there is for sure an optimal and not so optimal bulb mixture. I can tell you that for sure if you have a red sun in the fixture, that there should be at least 1 straight blue bulb to even it out. So far I'm REALLY liking the Giesemann Actinic Plus. It is an absolute perfect bulb for the blue. The Actinic Plus goes really well next to the Red Suns I have found and am now starting to get positive results from the red suns with those next to them. Instead of using any 6500K lights in your flower mixture that I believe was suggested by someone recently, use the 6000K Midday's because they add quite a bit of red to the mixture and they also have really nice coverage in the light blue zone! They are really working well for me! Anyway, what bulb combo did you use for your last harvest and what was the bulb order? That photo you have with the light tubes looks really blue heavy! I think that it is going to make your buds airier if you don't get some more red in there. I made the plunge and bought some RED LEDS to try out as supplemental 660nm. Damn expensive for only 40 watts. It's like paying $100 for only 1 T5 bulb! I wish someone would make a straight far red bulb for the T5 world. That will be the day! I think the added red will increase bud growth rate and might help in size.
 

Undercover Cop

Active Member
Was wondering what ya'll thought of my babies pre-harvest (graduation?) pics? Before anyone trips for chopping off the fan leaves, she's going into 48-72 of dark tonite then she's done, after two months I was just so curious to see what she had under her clothes lol. Kinda obvious what I think she resembles

before...
DSC02321.jpg

then...
DSC02408.jpg DSC02401.jpg
DSC02405.jpg
enjoy
! Like a desert sunset. A little SW flavor for ya lol!
 

C.Indica

Well-Known Member
Hurrah! Don't worry about chopping off leaves, she's not photosynthesizing anymore.
Just make sure you take enough leaves off, and get enough air flow,
without so much direct wind as to close stomata.

She still needs gas exchange, and air flow so she won't mold.

Looks beautiful, I can't wait for shots in better (whiter) light!
:leaf:
 

AltarNation

Well-Known Member
What was your final bulb mixture that you liked best? I can't find where you list the names and order of the lights in the fixture. Your buds look real nice, it doesn't look like you did anything wrong to me! I've been playing with bulb mixtures for some time now, and there is for sure an optimal and not so optimal bulb mixture. I can tell you that for sure if you have a red sun in the fixture, that there should be at least 1 straight blue bulb to even it out. So far I'm REALLY liking the Giesemann Actinic Plus. It is an absolute perfect bulb for the blue. The Actinic Plus goes really well next to the Red Suns I have found and am now starting to get positive results from the red suns with those next to them. Instead of using any 6500K lights in your flower mixture that I believe was suggested by someone recently, use the 6000K Midday's because they add quite a bit of red to the mixture and they also have really nice coverage in the light blue zone! They are really working well for me! Anyway, what bulb combo did you use for your last harvest and what was the bulb order? That photo you have with the light tubes looks really blue heavy! I think that it is going to make your buds airier if you don't get some more red in there. I made the plunge and bought some RED LEDS to try out as supplemental 660nm. Damn expensive for only 40 watts. It's like paying $100 for only 1 T5 bulb! I wish someone would make a straight far red bulb for the T5 world. That will be the day! I think the added red will increase bud growth rate and might help in size.
Hey-

Like I said the late trim left a lot of rough foliage on that I wasn't happy with... and there was definitely something funny going on with them before I chopped because I was losing fan leaves left and right and then leaves were browning out in the middle of the buds, going completely brittle dry and brown...

Anyway, it is still really great stuff, like I said... I practically disappeared from here for a month because I was smokin so much of it, hahaha... but like any good perfectionist artist type, ( ;) ) I am shooting for a little higher up the bar.

I learned on the late harvest that I much prefer to trim before drying... but it also dried a lot faster. Of course it was all very small buds comparatively too. And the humidity may have been different; I didn't bother to find my hygrometer for the second batch for some reason... :bigjoint:

Bulb line-up I used for flowering the first time was:

2 fiji purps
2 coral waves
2 red sun
1 UVL 75/25
1 UVL Super Actinic

This time I am trying the following setup in a 10 bulb (retrofitted 2 add'l slots in the middle as shown above):

4 Flora Sun
2 Coral Wave
2 Red Sun
1 Super Actinic
1 75/25

I want to get two more red suns to put in place of the last two, but can't find them anywhere. Considering the fijis in there instead but probably not ideal either since it spikes at 610 and not 630... I'm gonna look up the graph and pricing on those Geissman Midday's...
 

AltarNation

Well-Known Member
I can tell you that for sure if you have a red sun in the fixture, that there should be at least 1 straight blue bulb to even it out. So far I'm REALLY liking the Giesemann Actinic Plus. It is an absolute perfect bulb for the blue. The Actinic Plus goes really well next to the Red Suns I have found and am now starting to get positive results from the red suns with those next to them.
Wow, I didn't catch this when I was replying at first... went back to finish up reading and saw this, and it makes a lot of sense when I think about it. So for what I have now, I can cluster the blues and the reds side by side on each side with the floras "surrounding" them probably... Picturing:

Flora Sun
Red Sun
Super Actinic
Coral Wave
-
Flora Sun
Coral Wave
-
Flora Sun
75/25 (or 454?)
Red Sun
Flora Sun

This should help amplify the blending of the blues and reds I think... what do you think Blue?

Instead of using any 6500K lights in your flower mixture that I believe was suggested by someone recently, use the 6000K Midday's because they add quite a bit of red to the mixture and they also have really nice coverage in the light blue zone! They are really working well for me!
I am going to go look into those after I'm done here, haha.

Anyway, what bulb combo did you use for your last harvest and what was the bulb order? That photo you have with the light tubes looks really blue heavy! I think that it is going to make your buds airier if you don't get some more red in there. I made the plunge and bought some RED LEDS to try out as supplemental 660nm. Damn expensive for only 40 watts. It's like paying $100 for only 1 T5 bulb! I wish someone would make a straight far red bulb for the T5 world. That will be the day! I think the added red will increase bud growth rate and might help in size.
What are you using for LED? I am very interested in adding something like that, but was concerned with keeping it the proper distance from the plant while still getting T5 coverage... any issues there?

BTW that picture is the latter setup, the one I have in right now, except the 454's are going to be taken out and replaced with Flora Suns today. (Actually going to rearrange as above)

And yeah, I am definitely too blue, trying to figure how to fix that. I think just getting those 454's out and putting the Flora Suns in will make a difference, but I want to go farther with it.

What would you do with the above layout? What would you take out to put in the Middays if I added those? Do you think it would work to pull the 75/25 and the Super Actinic and use mid-days for the blue supplement AND the extra red, or would that be too red?

I might have to pick up a 4-bulb to use for a veg chamber soon just because I'll have so many extra blues kicking around.
 

BlueB

Active Member
I'm still in experimentation mode myself! For sure I would replace the 75/25 with a Midday because it is not needed. The 75/25 is a big green spike with some blue in it. The midday has the same green spike, has the blue, but it also has the 630nm red. Also, keep in mind that the graph online is incorrect. I will take a photo of the graph on the package for you to give a better idea. I purchased the UVL Super Actinics awhile ago and have replaced them now with the Giesemann Actinic Plus because it is like 2 bulbs in one. That way you can free up another slot. The Actinic Plus and the Midday both put out a lot of lumens as well. The Actinic Plus is da shit! It's like a super actinic and a 454 in one, and it goes great next to a red sun. I've found that my plants can only handle 1 red sun for some reason, so I now only have one red sun and 1 giesemann actinic plus. I'm doing this in my veg fixture and my flower fixture. The red LEDs I purchased are the Kessil 150 reds. They are only 40 watts each, so I figure they won't be that overpowering compared to the T5's. The more fixtures the better, and the more light the better. I have quite the arrangement of T5 bulbs including the 75/25 and super actinic so I know how it goes grabbing new bulbs. Experimentation costs $$ sometimes though :). I feel like all the bulbs do a great job so don't take what I say as the absolute, this is just what is working for me so far. Instead of not using certain bulbs, it would be better to just buy another fixture for side-lighting, and as far as getting that 6:1 red/blue ratio, the only way to keep it high in the 660nm range is to use LEDs for now. The Flora Suns are a 1:1 red blue so adding more Flora Suns, although will add more 660nm, will not boost that 1:1 ratio. The higher red ratio is what's going to make for bigger, denser buds. A lot of people are having pretty good luck with the red sun even though they are only 630nm. I remember the first UFO LEDs only consisted of 630nm reds and didn't work that well. Now that they've switched to the 660nm reds they are working according to other users. All in all, I'm still up in the air with the red suns, but they are currently the only way to keep the 6:1 ratio and still use T5s alone. Hope this helps ya.
 

BlueB

Active Member
midday and actinic plus.jpg
I really like both of these bulbs. The Midday has a good range of red and the actinic plus is a great blue bulb. It seems like you could get away with these 2 bulbs plus the Flora Suns and Red Suns as a good flower mixture. When I get my 660nm LEDs I might pull the red suns, but I'm not sure yet. It will depend on how the plants respond to the light.
 

AltarNation

Well-Known Member
Too rich for my blood on the kessils right now... all LED seems too expensive to me at this juncture. Thanks a lot for posting the graphs. The Midday has way more red than I thought... it looks like that big spike is at 630nm... wondering how that compares to a Red Sun... going to look into those other bulbs and see what it'd cost me...
 

BlueB

Active Member
The overall appearance of the Midday's is a bright yellow/gold. The Red Suns are pure red which makes it important to blend the light before it reaches the plants. The Midday's may be more user friendly, but again these are only a 1:1 red/blue ratio. Yeah, the price on the Kessil LEDs is a joke. But they are made in the USA which may be a plus. They also manufacture their own LED technology. I won't be buying any more of them unless they make a huge increase in yield or quality.
 

AltarNation

Well-Known Member
Will definitely be keeping tabs on that.

Considering some cheap low wattage 660nm LED fixtures dispersed on three sides as side-lighting or something... I'm going to have some cash to play with soon so I will hit the local shop and see what they have on hand, maybe I'll find a solution.

Hesitant to add more fluoros due to heat concerns.. but I ordered a new can fan which should give me an extra 100 cfm to work with so maybe I will add a 4-bulb in the back vertically or something. Also have considered just going with a good old fashioned 400 watt HPS addition... but that would be a LOT more heat to work with I'd imagine..
 

BlueB

Active Member
HOLY SHIT MAN! The power of hydro! Looks like you got a little Mg deficiency. That's awesome that you are using those extra tough rubbermaid type containers, I picked up a few of those exact same containers a couple years ago to make an aeroponics machine out of them. It worked really well and they are nice for the fact that the lid sits lower than the edges of the container so it prevents dripping on the edge. Hydro sure does grow plants fast, but I never get that same sweet taste that I do from soil. Quick update,
current2.jpgcurrent1.jpg
 

AltarNation

Well-Known Member
Okay I finally found what I was looking for more or less, but it's a T8 not a T5. Damn them!

http://www.growlightexpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1549&cPath=1#googlebase

I could work in a 2-bulb T8 unit at the back as a 660nm supplement, but I'm worried about the uneven exposure... some plants being too close, some too far away from the LEDs... if I could find a T8 fixture with the ballasts remoted like the one I'm using now for the T5s, I could put the T8 660nm tubes right down the middle of the whole fixture like I've got my two retrofitted T5's now... that's something to think about...

Of course I have no idea what the quality of the LEDs is... still intriguing...
 

BlueB

Active Member
Okay I finally found what I was looking for more or less, but it's a T8 not a T5. Damn them!

http://www.growlightexpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1549&cPath=1#googlebase

I could work in a 2-bulb T8 unit at the back as a 660nm supplement, but I'm worried about the uneven exposure... some plants being too close, some too far away from the LEDs... if I could find a T8 fixture with the ballasts remoted like the one I'm using now for the T5s, I could put the T8 660nm tubes right down the middle of the whole fixture like I've got my two retrofitted T5's now... that's something to think about...
I highly doubt these LEDs run in typical T8 fixtures. I've looked into these types of lights before and they have them for T5's as well. But again, they need a special fixture I'm sure. LEDs don't run off the same power as floros. I could be wrong, that would be cool.
 

AltarNation

Well-Known Member
I highly doubt these LEDs run in typical T8 fixtures. I've looked into these types of lights before and they have them for T5's as well. But again, they need a special fixture I'm sure. LEDs don't run off the same power as floros. I could be wrong, that would be cool.
I'm not sure... there's a couple responses here, kind of conflicting:
http://www.greners.com/i/grow-lights/led-brand/agroled-t8-led-tubes-white-blue-veg.html

Can these be plugged into any 4' T8 fixture? -Rob

Yes these should work with any standard T8 fixture but it must have the fluorescent ballasts removed and rewired straight to the power cord. These tubes are self ballasted. -Greners Staff

What fixture will the AgroLED T8 LED Tubes - White/Blue Veg run with? -Ronnie
The AgroLED T8 LED Tubes - White/Blue Veg work fine on any standard T8 fixture! -Greners Staff
 

AltarNation

Well-Known Member
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