Light ???

ledhed59

New Member
quick question color temp versus ph lock in importance to yield what is usually the basic mistakes briefly since the root ball and canopy are both related and important
 

ledhed59

New Member
maybe block not lock...lol. I mean soil ph getting out of parameters for the most useful intake of nutes. I guess just watering with unknown ph water into unknown ph soil.how that compares to using only one color temp light in your grow for example only soft white cfl 2700K......Sorry just trying to get my best yield.....so many things to watch.....good thread though
 

RM3

Well-Known Member
maybe block not lock...lol. I mean soil ph getting out of parameters for the most useful intake of nutes. I guess just watering with unknown ph water into unknown ph soil.how that compares to using only one color temp light in your grow for example only soft white cfl 2700K......Sorry just trying to get my best yield.....so many things to watch.....good thread though
The PH thing varies with grow style and medium, and yeppers it matters but does have a window or a range IMO it's not the most important thing to be concerned with. If using CFL's use a mixed spectrum
 

jpizzle4shizzle

Well-Known Member
I use,,,,,
Jack's Citrus FeED 20-10-20 has 4.9% sulfur
Jack's Aquagold Finisher 7-15-30 has 9% sulfur
Gypsum for Cal, it is Calcium Sulfate 18% sulfur
Epsom for Mag it is Magnesium Sulfate 13% sulfur

When using jacks do you feed the same amount or increase weekly or bi weekly? Im new to growing and dont really want to invest in a ppm meter, but I always seem to burn the tips of my plants anytime I add a little more nutrients. I dont want to push my plants too hard but I dont wanna take it easy on me n get some gussies out of it

Sent from my LG-V410 using Rollitup mobile app
 

RM3

Well-Known Member
I have never owned a meter, I go by what the plant needs by how it looks, but I've been doing it for decades lol It totally depends on your grow style and the strain but bottom line is less is more
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Jorge Cervantes aka George Patton wrote a comprehensive lighting ditty in a HT mag, March 2000. He supports in real data what I have observed and stated anecdotally. I've said over and over again that the plants don't really care when it comes to MH versus HPS, they do fine under both and the ONLY real reason for the lighting lamps, ballast gimmicks MH to HPS is to pad the lighting corporate pockets.

Now....he did fine until he got down to the part that HPS doesn't have much blues. It has plenty for great plant performance as I've witnessed growing from start to finish exclusively with HPS. He also didn't mention a plant's light saturation point, notice the last statement that the higher the light intensity the better. However, the entire article needs to be read in order to put it all in its proper context and perspective.

Just took a photo of one of the pages of this great article. Will say it again, Cervantes has the best chapter on lighting using real data/measurements I've seen in a grow bible.

HT-HID Lighting.jpg

Draw a horizontal line across the bottom of the chart to separate the non-PAR noise (green/yellow/orange) from the rest and it's evident that the spectral distribution or output of blue is about as much as the red and FR.

PLANTA-T.jpg
 
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lilroach

Well-Known Member
UB......what do you feel about a mixed spectrum such as using both MH and HPS to flower plants? It would seem that would cover all bases in regards to offering a broad light spectrum.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
That's fine and that exact mix was recommended at the end of the article. There was a method to my madness when I grew indoors. I used a 400W MH to start my seedlings AND more importantly, when the garden's footprint expanded (yes, I'd physically move the reflective walls outward) and I felt the need for more light because of the broader area, I would add a 600W HPS. The process was reversed as I harvested, pulled plants out, moved the reflective panels inward toward the center and finished up with the HPS.
 

RM3

Well-Known Member
Posted this this weekend over at my place, thought I'd share it here :bigjoint:

This is why I tell folks to read things outside of MJ forums. Like the Plant Growth Chamber Handbook, a scientific journey into growing indoors. Here is a link to chapter one ,,,,

http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Growth_Chamber_Handbook/Ch01.pdf

The whole book is here,,,,,

http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Growth_Chamber_Handbook/Plant_Growth_Chamber_Handbook.htm

If you look at page 3 you will see a comparison of different lights (including the sun) measured in the wavelengths that plants respond to (PAR) and you will see that Flouros and Metal Halides beat HPS pretty bad and more closely compare to the sun. This is totally because of the blue in those lights that HPS lacks. Note that Lumens & Lux are included in the chart. IMO this chapter should be required reading but actually the whole book is a great read !!!

Then there is my fav posted thread over ICMAG back in 2008 where the OP like some here tried to link lumens to par with a few trolls and a few really good responses, it is only 2 pages long

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=105515

and here are a few more good reads on the subject ,,,,,

http://www.just4growers.com/stream/grow-lights/lumens-are-for-humans,-par-is-for-plants!.aspx

http://www.gavita-holland.com/index.php/item/lumens-are-for-humans.html

http://www.sunmastergrowlamps.com/SunmLightandPlants.html

Folks are always amazed at what I do with lights but don't seem to want to learn why?
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Folks are always amazed at what I do with lights but don't seem to want to learn why?
Because I researched and digested this shit until I was blue in the face 15 years ago and I aint gonna bother any mo, hah! :mrgreen: Gawd, if I had a nickel for every lighting thread 4, 8, 12, 15 years ago.

For noobs, they'd be advised to read and try to process what's in your links. They'd also be advised to pay attention to bonafide plant growth studies conducted by non-partisan (those NOT in the lighting industry) universities. NASA's studies would be a good start.

UB
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I guess Phillips has it all wrong then, designing those inefficient HID lights for horticulture purposes while their T5s are actually better grow lights.

If you would have claimed T5 can measure up to HPS in terms of yield... but this talk of T5 being better than HPS is getting old fast... speaking of old, that table is based on 30-year old data.

Also ironic how you link that popular article from Gavita.
 

RM3

Well-Known Member
I guess Phillips has it all wrong then, designing those inefficient HID lights for horticulture purposes while their T5s are actually better grow lights.

If you would have claimed T5 can measure up to HPS in terms of yield... but this talk of T5 being better than HPS is getting old fast... speaking of old, that table is based on 30-year old data.

Also ironic how you link that popular article from Gavita.
Why ironic? I'm not saying T5 is better than HPS, never have each has a use and IMO those using HPS could get better results if they added some T5 (or LED) supplementation and by better results I'm talking quality as in potency. I'm fully aware that HPS gives higher yields. And tis very true that many advances in design improvements have occurred since that book was written. But it is also very true that adding deep blue increases trics and resin growth
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I'm not saying T5 is better than HPS, never have
Well you're kind of implying it here by referencing that table:
and you will see that Flouros and Metal Halides beat HPS pretty bad
and providing other links to help people interpret that.

Besides that:
I use aquarium T5's and there is no better light
I guess you meant no better T5 then...

Why ironic?
Because a gavita isn't just any HPS setup and a good example of HPS>T5. Reminds me of LED fans making comparisons to HPS, they take the numbers of some average old knockoff HPS instead of a real philips in gavita gear skewing the numbers up to 30%.

But it is also very true that adding deep blue increases trics and resin growth
Maybe it just looks like that because of the smaller buds, ever thought of that? You get the same amount of trics, but on less swollen bud, making it look more frosty. ;) There's only so much blue you need to fill a closet with frosty buds. I grow for resin too... with hps:
P6-F2_20_frostcalyx.jpg

It's a valid point though. A major advantage of your tanning bed and often underestimated factor is the spread. While I prefer a MH+HPS over T5 for more blue during flowering, it's impossible to get such an even spread with two different hid bulbs.
 

RM3

Well-Known Member
IMO T5's are better for a small hobby grower with a small garden. If I was growing for yield I would get a 4 foot hood with an HPS and put it in the middle of my booth with the T5's on each side which would give the best of both worlds IMO and I would have the UV & deep blue bulbs in the T5 fixtures as the HPS would supply the reds.

and yeppers the aquarium bulbs are the best T5 bulbs as they are designed to penetrate 3 feet of water to grow coral

But the main purpose of that post was to help new growers better understand that Lumens are not the proper way to judge a light
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
IMO T5's are better for a small hobby grower with a small garden.
That's the general consensus in the dutch grow forums as well, they call it micro/fluo grows. Although we probably have a slightly different interpretation of what a small garden is. :)

But the main purpose of that post was to help new growers better understand that Lumens are not the proper way to judge a light
Yeah I got that, and a little ironic if you indeed claimed T5>HPS because that gavita article is written for the same purpose, to be able to better judge lights, i.e. be able to see why gavita hps is (on paper anyway) better.

If I was growing for yield I would get a 4 foot hood with an HPS and put it in the middle of my booth with the T5's on each side which would give the best of both worlds IMO and I would have the UV & deep blue bulbs in the T5 fixtures as the HPS would supply the reds.
That actually sounds pretty good. I run 600watt on 4x4 and would like a little more light on the edges. 600watt, especially in my gavita tripplestar hood, is better suited for 3.5x3.5 or 3x4. I've considered LED, CFLs, and CMH (210w version) but not T5 yet... probably going to rebuild and reshape my closet but interesting option to consider especially with T5 with such a reach.
 
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RM3

Well-Known Member
That's the general consensus in the dutch grow forums as well, they call it micro grows. Although we probably have a slightly different interpretation of what a small garden is. :)

Yeah I got that, and a little ironic if you indeed claimed T5>HPS because that gavita article is written for the same purpose, to be able to better judge lights, i.e. be able to see why gavita hps is (on paper anyway) better.

That actually sounds pretty good. I run 600watt on 4x4 and would like a little more light on the edges. 600watt, especially in my gavita tripplestar hood, is better suited for 3.5x3.5 or 3x4. I've considered LED, CFLs, and CMH (210w version) but not T5 yet... probably going to rebuild and reshape my closet but interesting option to consider especially with T5 with such a reach.
Have you ever checked out Lumi's Illumination chamber at that other site I try not to mention, he used T5's as side lighting :bigjoint:
 

RM3

Well-Known Member
Some more pics to illustrate. In this pic I have circle 2 buds, the top bud is 1 foot away from the lights, it is the closest to the lights bud on this plant. The bottom bud circled is 2 feet away from the lights and shaded by several leaves ,,,,,
S_SAM_3490a.jpg
 

RM3

Well-Known Member
1st pic is the top bud, 2nd pic is the bottom bud, they are exactly the same size and same structure ,,,,,,,,,, imagine that :)

S_SAM_3486.JPGS_SAM_3487.JPG
 
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